Drill question for machinist

[danski26]

I need some center drills. There seems to be some out there "even claiming solid carbide" that are listing for just a couple bucks. Then i look at brownells and they list from $18 to $42 each. Is there a certian brand of carbide center drills that are good quality tools?

Also I am tired of buying individual drills for precision work and am thinking of getting a full index. Brownells lists the "jobber length maxi set" at $317.90 but midway list one at around $60. Same number and sizes of drills. Do i pony up the big cash or can i do ok with the midway set?

[Pepe Ray]

Do you want to support our industries or send your money to China?
As simple as that. Pepe Ray

[grumpy one]

Just be careful that you are comparing apples with apples there. Make sure any drill bits you buy are high speed steel, for a start - very cheap bits are usually carbon steel, and are unsuitable for use on metal. The other thing to watch for is how well they are sharpened, which is only important for the first time you use them, since you'll have to resharpen them after that anyway.

In my experience you can buy very good drill bits at very low prices, and you can buy just the same thing at very high prices. Certain distribution and retail chains work on high mark-ups. I suggest you check that any drill bits you consider are high speed steel (usually marked hss) and look as if they are ground well - not so much the tips, but the cutting edges along their length. If they pass these tests, buy on price.

[Red River Rick]

danski26:

The drill index set from Brownell's is probably your best choice, and they are more than likely High Speed Steel and not High Speed Sh#t. I have a few complete sets (M2, Cobalt & HSS) and have been using them for years and replacing them as needed. Other than what-ever material you remove during sharpening, they should last you a very long time if you use the correct cutting speeds. The biggest problem with drill breakage is the cutting speed (rpm) is to slow or the drill is not removed from hole adequately enough to allow the chips to clear.

With regards to the solid carbide center drills, the best advise would be to turn them as fast as you possibly can. When center drilling at work or at home, on my C.N.C. Machining Centers, I usually turn the center drill around 5000 rpm and use them only on pre-hardened tool steels such as P20, H13 or 4140HT.

The biggest problem with solid carbide tooling is they must be held rigid and run true. Using a solid carbide center drill in a drill press may result in chipping or worse, breakage. So much for your $40 center drill. Unless your drilling hardened tool steel or some exotic alloy, a good quality H.S.S. center drill should be sufficient enough.

RRR

[leftiye]

I agree with Grumpy, inexpensive high speed drills are probably plenty good, if your spindle is true, and the drill is the right size (mike it) it's pretty much all the same. Remember, HIgh speed is not carbide, you have to watch out for heat. Remove from hole often (before it starts squealing), and lubricate it well. Sharp drills make less heat. It is surprising how aggressively high speed will cut if supplied with coolant, and it actually out classes carbide when used this way because it handles shock (one form is chatter) which will destroy your carbide tools as described above. M2 or M3 HSS is the next step up, both harder, and tougher. I don't have any carbide drills, nor center drills. As RRR said above carbide is needed for special steels (more nastier than chrome moly).

[danski26]

Thank you for the info gentlemen, I think i will look for the HSS bits and center drill also since i will be using it in a drill press not a mill.

[gzig5]

In my experience, Brownells is a bit expensive for common drills, endmills, and such supplies. There are a lot of machinist supply catalog's such as Enco, MSC, and McMaster-Carr that have a much larger selection at mcuh better prices. You can choose your material and country of origin based on your budget.
Greg

[KCSO]

I hate to knock Brownell's but they are in business to make money. I buy the same drills from MSC Inc. for about 2/3's the price. www.msc.com You might have to save up and make a bigger order than you planned but you will get american quality tools at the right price. Beware they also sell Pakistani poop for little or nothing, buty the good sttuff and you won't regret it.

[Jon K]

Buyer Beware Enco sells a lot of low quality tooling made in Pakistan, India and other low cost import source items. Carefully inspect the tooling before buying, or know you are buying good quality before taking the plunge. Take your chances, if you please, but there is no substiute for the right tool.

Jon
:coffee:

[BD]

I'll put in another pitch for MSC. I've been dealing with them for 10 years, and had an open account for 7 when I owned the tannery. They will have a variety of options on most tooling, fittings and motors, and they are very clear in thier catalog about exactly who manufactures the stuff they sell. They are also very quick with shipment for most things and don't play the shipping charges games that you'll get from Graingers.
BD

[danski26]

I tried the "msc" web site listed by KCSO and it sends me to an x-ray equipment site.

[leftiye]

1 800 645 7270, They'll answer your questions (even about website) and send you a free 4000 (yes four thousand) page catalog. Short or no wait on call being answered.

[No_1]

Try this one.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm

Robert

[danski26]

That one worked....4000 pages hmmmmm Honey i'll be in the bathroom "for a week".

[RayinNH]

Look at both MSC and Enco. If you find the same item at both it's usually cheaper at Enco. Msc is the parent company to Enco. When I order from Enco it always comes from Elkhart IN an MSC distribution point...Ray

[No_1]

If you call the 800 number, they will send you "The Big Blue Book" for free and they will send the CD about a week later....

Robert


That one worked....4000 pages hmmmmm Honey i'll be in the bathroom "for a week".

[Buckshot]

.............For center drills unless you're drilling some exotic materials regular old HSS works superbly. Use cutting oil for nice work. For drills quality is everything but there is absolutely no sense in paying double what you have to. You will see those 115 piece sets with letter, number and fractional sizes go from $39 at Horror Fright and such places to over $500.

There are good names around like Chicago-Latrobe, Cleveland Twist, Presto, Triumph, and a few others. For a home owner needing to make the occasional hole a 29 piece set by Hansen would be great and sell at a decent price. For use in a machine ie:Rigid, I like parabolics as they'll drill loooooooooong or short holes and the long ones with out peck drilling.

Remember that even the highest quality drill will not drill a round hole but a better bit will drill a rounder one. I have mentioned this before, but on E-bay I got a set of Guhring TiN coated 1/4" bits on 3/8" shanks. There were 10 of'em in a plastic dispenser pack. They were 135* split point parabolics. I kid you not, but I have used and am STILL USING the very first one out of that package! I'd say I've stuck that bit through 50 feet of steel to date and under magnification you can just see the edge is beginning to lose the coating.

I was astounded by these things and had never experienced anything like them before. Checking several catalogs I've found Guhring 1/4" straight shank Tin coated parabolic split points for $22 apiece, yikes! So I think I got close to $225 worth of bits for something like $6 :-)

Anyway, I don' thtink Brownells is the place to by stuff as common as drill bits. They're not in that business and do no volumn in them. Any of the tools suppliers are a much better source. I believe all of them will note the product as 'Import" or USA made, or name the manufacturer. And for gosh sakes get yourself a Drill Doctor. My dad's a pretty good hand at sharpening a bit on the bench grinder. At least 1/4" and up but as good as he is he can't touch what a $75 Drill Doctor can do. I don't even bother to try using the bench grinder. I like straight round holes!

ENCO has a monthly free shipping code for orders over $50 and a good drill set will be over that. The free shipping code for this month is: WBNRM7

.................Buckshot

[montana_charlie]

And for gosh sakes get yourself a Drill Doctor.
You just had to say that, didn't you?

I've had one for about five years, and yesterday I got another.

I bought mine after my neighbor told me what a great tool they are, but I have never successfully sharpened a drill bit...and I am usually quite good at following instructions.

Yesterday, my neighbor gave me his, so my wife can sell it on eBay. Turns out, he has never been able to sharpen a drill, either.

My problem is that the cutting edge is always lower than the 'heel'.
How does one correct that, Buckshot?
CM

[454PB]

When I took my short course machinist training 30 years ago, the very first things we had to learn was hand sharpening drill bits and hss lathe tools. It's almost like casting, very hard to describe but developed over time by watching a master and then trial and error. The Drill Doctor appears to be a very accurate and time saving device. I don't own one yet, I'm still sharpening by hand, but it is on my list of tools to buy.

[montana_charlie]

The Drill Doctor appears to be a very accurate and time saving device. I don't own one yet, I'm still sharpening by hand, but it is on my list of tools to buy.
Looks like I have one to sell...interested?
CM

[No_1]

Sharpening a drill bit seems hard but is actually very easy once you get the hang of it. The process is not as you would think.

SAFETY FIRST. Wear your safety glasses. If you are like me, In order to see what is actually going on you will find yourself with your face/eyes very close to the wheel/bit.

You hold the bit at the correct angle with the grinding wheel (unless you flat burned/melted the end right off, use the angle that is left to line it up).

You will always start with the shank of the bit lower than the cutting edge. When you touch the cutting edge to the wheel, you lift the cutting edge while pushing down on the shank (rotating on an imaginary axis in the center of the bit).

Do not turn the bit. Just lift the front and drop the back. Do this for each side equally so the cutting edges are the same length. (If one side is longer then the drill will cut a bigger hole)

Have a cup of water handy to lower the bit in after every touch to the wheel. Heat is the enemy. (If you overheat the bit it will not last long)

As you go, you can feel the bit getting sharp if you place the cutting edge (make sure it is not hot) between the forefinger and thumb then twist it slightly with the other hand. It should catch your fingerprints.

The Drill Doctor is the the best way to go for the hobby machinist. Most guys have grinders in their garage with rough / abused wheels. If you have bad wheels, you will never sharpen a bit. I work for Uncle Sam and he has generously supplied us with a full tilt machine shop to do prototype work. We have various size sharpening machines but the drill doctor gets the most use with the smaller bits.

On another note, use some type of cutting fluid/oil when you drill. It does not take much. You will find that your bit will last 10 - 100 times longer.


Robert





My problem is that the cutting edge is always lower than the 'heel'.
How does one correct that, Buckshot?
CM

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, No. 1. What you described is what I do...on a grinder.
My question was in regard to the Drill Doctor, which (used properly) maintains correct angles better than free-hand on a grinder.
CM

[No_1]

Sorry,
I mis-read your post. Give them a call : LIFETIME, toll-free technical support. Just call 800.597.6170

I am sure they have the answer.


Robert


Thanks, No. 1. What you described is what I do...on a grinder.
My question was in regard to the Drill Doctor, which (used properly) maintains correct angles better than free-hand on a grinder.
CM

[floodgate]

CM:

"My problem is that the cutting edge is always lower than the 'heel'.'

That problem comes up with some drill sizes and tip styles in some drill-grinding jigs. Just grind off the heel, free-hand, to a slightly steeper angle about half the width of the outer corner of the tip facet to stop the "heel drag". Nothing critical there, so long as you leave enough support behind the cutting edge.

floodgate

[454PB]

Looks like I have one to sell...interested?
CM

Make me an offer I can't refuse[smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

Make me an offer I can't refuse.
Well, I see that the Drill Doctor folks have been busy. Now they have two configurations.

The one I have to sell is this type...
http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/G5860

And, I see they now have this on the market...
http://www.grizzly.com/products/h7362

Which one are you interested in having?
CM

[Slowpoke]

1 800 645 7270, They'll answer your questions (even about website) and send you a free 4000 (yes four thousand) page catalog. Short or no wait on call being answered.

I called the number and ordered the book at 9 AM on 3-5- 07, the big ass book was on my front porch at 10 AM on 3-6-07, simply amazing to me.

thanks and good luck

[No_1]

Go ahead and order some tools. If the item is in stock, it will show up just as fast.

Robert


I called the number and ordered the book at 9 AM on 3-5- 07, the big ass book was on my front porch at 10 AM on 3-6-07, simply amazing to me.

thanks and good luck

[454PB]

Well, I see that the Drill Doctor folks have been busy. Now they have two configurations.

The one I have to sell is this type...
http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/G5860

And, I see they now have this on the market...
http://www.grizzly.com/products/h7362

Which one are you interested in having?
CM

I'm sending you a PM.

[Buckshot]

................My suggestion of the Drill Doctor is that it is a machine that the homeowner can probably afford to get if they do much of any kind of metal work (or just like having 'stuff' :-) ). I'd sure like to have a Darex or similar but $3-4,000 is kind of out of the picture at the moment!

...............Buckshot

[uscra112]

Drill Doctor works fine. I've had one for 2-3 years now. Use it gently, it's "consumer-grade", (i.e. plastic), construction, but it does work.

My mailorder tools suppliers are, in order of goodness:
J&L Industrial Tool Supply jlindustrial.com
McMaster-Carr
Manhattan Supply

Enco, legend has it, started importing cheap machine tools from Asia on ships that had carried over loads of scrap metal. This is plausible, given the quality of the stuff they continue to sell.

You NEED to know about J&L -

J&L is a real big and real serious supplier of cutting tools and machine shop equipment to every machine tool user in the automotive region (and beyond).

Despite the moaning and groaning from Detroit, we still go through about a trainload of perishable tooling a week around here, and nobody can afford less than the very best when it's for high production and tight tolerance work at the same time. J&L supplies an awful lot of it.

J&L's catalog will give you a CHOICE between the cheap foreign stuff and the really good USA made stuff.

IMHO J&L blows every other cutting tool supplier into the weeds. They have even gotten me strange, large diameter obsolete extra-fine thread taps and dies for repairing ancient actions and barrels, when other suppliers said no-can-do.

No I don't own stock. But I'm awfully glad to be where they are. I can drive their retail store in Livonia in under an hour, and I often do.

[Nueces]

uscra112 (did I spell that right?), I also like Travers Tool.

Your order of preferences may be complicated by MSC's purchase of J&L last year. I envy you your proximity to all that industriality. I used to attend NAMES every year, wonder if we ever bumped into each other. :drinks:

On the Drill Doctor, I admit to being annoyed by y'all's pleasant experience with them. I got one of the new versions long ago and found that the chuck swelled and would not turn in the socket. Called and griped, they kindly sent me another chuck that promptly swelled as had the first. I've never sharpened a drill with it. Which models have worked for you guys?

Mark