Lube in the cold

[charger 1]

The LBT mold I use in the 450 AK had been producing great accuracy. Veral designed it to hold a fare wak of lube. I use lyman super moly. Today was the first day the Ammo stayed out in the cold with me,and it was only about 12 F in our shootin shack. five shots fired. All in a vertical line,an 8" line. 5 inches vertically between one and two. Then 3 inches between 2 and 3,then 4 and five were very close to 3. You could call it a group. This bore was already fouled. Something else I saw today which never happened before was lube back on the case neck. I've noticed very slight discoloration before but never lube you could feel. I've heard it said that in the cold the removal of the lube from the gas check area would allow more shot to shot consistancy. What ya's think

[Lloyd Smale]

could be many things. Could be the lube but i doubt it. Could be just the effect the cold had on the pressure in your ammo. Could be the effect the pressure points of your barrel or just the cold effect on the barrel itself. Ive seen where the ammount of clothes i had on effected groups and consentration too. Could just be a bad day too, I have them all the time.

[buck1]

Thats one of the few comerical lubes that seems to do ok in hot or cold (for me at least).
I'm going to say just as hot weather will raise pressure, the cold seems to have lowered yours. As the gun warmed up a bit your shots seemed to group better.
and the lube on the cases seem to tell a story of lower pressure.
Others here may be of more help, but I think some tests loads worked up in the cold for the cold only may be in order? IMHO....Buck

[charger 1]

could be many things. Could be the lube but i doubt it. Could be just the effect the cold had on the pressure in your ammo. Could be the effect the pressure points of your barrel or just the cold effect on the barrel itself. Ive seen where the ammount of clothes i had on effected groups and consentration too. Could just be a bad day too, I have them all the time.



Lloyd Lloyd Lloyd
Ok ,could be lots of things. Me having a bad day. I'll just consider you maybe had a temporary sanity lapse there OK[smilie=s:

[KYCaster]

I have the same problem with a 35Rem. Below about 30 deg. F, the first shot is about 8" high and by the fifth shot it's back to normal POA.

I'm using Thompson's Blue Angel so I got some Bull Shop Speed Green thinking that Dan's lube, borne in the frozen North, should handle cold weather better. Not enough testing so far to know if it works.

Jerry

[Ricochet]

So, does Charger need to put clothes on, or take them off?

[carpetman]

Ricochet--It is impossible to determine whether Charger needs more or less clothes. That may not even be the issue. The ammount of clothes was the problem. Ammount could mean the designer for example????

[Lloyd Smale]

IM TELLIN YA try shootin them groups nakid and see if they dont change!
Lloyd Lloyd Lloyd
Ok ,could be lots of things. Me having a bad day. I'll just consider you maybe had a temporary sanity lapse there OK[smilie=s:

[357maximum]

Maybe your boolits shrank...anyone who has ever been "fortunate" enough to have to wear several layers of carharts will tell you many things shrink in the cold..[smilie=1:

[Bullshop]

I have the same problem with a 35Rem. Below about 30 deg. F, the first shot is about 8" high and by the fifth shot it's back to normal POA.

I'm using Thompson's Blue Angel so I got some Bull Shop Speed Green thinking that Dan's lube, borne in the frozen North, should handle cold weather better. Not enough testing so far to know if it works.

Jerry
You go ahead and give the speed green a good work out in the cold. My personal opinion is there is no better cold weather lube. I regulerly shoot to -30F with no change in impact. I even leave the rifle out so it will be cold when shooting. It wont fall short in hot weather eather. So my opinion may be biased try it yourself and report your results. Just one mans opinion but I dont think you can get any better. Did anyone read the test report done by MM dan at his site? Might be surprised how some well respected lubes stacked up.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Lube problems because of cold? Why that is just your imagination! You were warned! :grin:

And you are using one of the best lubes for cold weather. Just wait until you see some other types. Why lanolin will give you 4 foot groups with any load or hardness!

I think you need to spend about three years shooting below 30 degrees trying every concoction know to man and let me know what conclusions you come to. This needs to be a right of passage for a cold weather fraternity type thing. They should issue a badge or something.

It's very educational experimentation. It will teach you why lube fliers happen in the summer. It will prove how false a lot of lube theories are, such as being a sealant in a bore. Why bore condition is so important. Why taller rifling has it's advantages. And many other things.

This will be great experience for you that not 1 in 100 cast shooters ever gets to understand and you can't explain it to them without having gone through it.

In the end, the biggie will be what it teaches you about bullet design. With the right bullet design, lube effects are minimized. But I ain't tellin you what that is yet except that LBT ain't got it.

Then when the next guy mentions cold weather problems, you can chuckle while drinking your coffee ......... been there, done that.

And everyone will think HE is crazy too. :grin:

[charger 1]

Then when the next guy mentions cold weather problems, you can chuckle while drinking your coffee ..

Nah, I'd probably be foolish enough to tell him if I knew:veryconfu

[charger 1]

PS. I'm starting to think after lookin at the bore that it werent a lube problem. That bore was well conditioned. I spun a few boolits in the unimat and noticed the checks for some reason not exactly square on the first ones I would have fired. I'm goin to start there

[charger 1]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Lube problems because of cold? Why that is just your imagination! You were warned! :grin:

And you are using one of the best lubes for cold weather. Just wait until you see some other types. Why lanolin will give you 4 foot groups with any load or hardness!

I think you need to spend about three years shooting below 30 degrees trying every concoction know to man and let me know what conclusions you come to. This needs to be a right of passage for a cold weather fraternity type thing. They should issue a badge or something.

It's very educational experimentation. It will teach you why lube fliers happen in the summer. It will prove how false a lot of lube theories are, such as being a sealant in a bore. Why bore condition is so important. Why taller rifling has it's advantages. And many other things.

This will be great experience for you that not 1 in 100 cast shooters ever gets to understand and you can't explain it to them without having gone through it.

In the end, the biggie will be what it teaches you about bullet design. With the right bullet design, lube effects are minimized. But I ain't tellin you what that is yet except that LBT ain't got it.

Then when the next guy mentions cold weather problems, you can chuckle while drinking your coffee ......... been there, done that.

And everyone will think HE is crazy too. :grin:


HA HA HA HA. LBT does got it and you DONT know it Bass. If you can imagine that :coffee:
100 meter
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM0926.JPG

[BruceB]

I spent several decades in Arctic conditions, but those years pre-date my interest in cast-bullet rifle shooting.

Since I intend to be back hunting in northern Alberta in November of 2008, I reckon that fall/winter of 2007 will see me doing some serious "cool"-weather shooting as I work up loads for making the next Alberta go-round a cast-bullets-only occasion. I'll be open to changing that decision based on results here. I should be able to cool the rifles and ammo to close to zero degrees Fahrenheit for trials, which should give me an idea of how they'll perform in Alberta conditions. Rifles will be my #1 Ruger in .416 Rigby (scoped) and the C&H .404 Jeffery with irons. My goal is effective 200-yard loads for both rifles.

Right now I'm using a 2:1 mixture of Lar45's 50/50 and his Carnauba Red, and I may well have to go with a softer lube than that.

Thanks for raising the topic, as it's one factor I hadn't started considering for this year's shooting.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, that beats me. After all my research, I still have to hold velocity under 1500 fps to do that well in the cold. Even if I harden my bullets. Is that the first three?

[charger 1]

Well, that beats me. After all my research, I still have to hold velocity under 1500 fps to do that well in the cold. Even if I harden my bullets. Is that the first three?

Oh no, I've learned in this life You dont talk about that which isnt repeatable on a farm deed bet. Thats about 35-40 down her now. One group that I remember opened to an inch or so. The cold wind had my eyes pi$$ing so bad it was pathetic, so I'm kinda forgetting that one, but I would say the garaunteed norm is .5 moa or under. And man You'd wanta see the poplar or spruce tree back end damage.....UUUUUUgly

[Bass Ackward]

This still drives me nuts. And I can't beat it. In any caliber. The worst results were always in 45 caliber for me. Stay below 1500 fps and life is good, but I lose trajectory. This is really why I went to 35 caliber. It still happens there, but not as wild to risk the first shot.

But with my 45s, I could run LBT's, 375 grain bullet and hold MOA week in, week out above 30 degrees. But below that, I might get that one day and think I solved the problem, then get 4" tomorrow, or 14" counting the first shot. Blow two in the dirt and warm the barrel .... and you come right back. So it is definitely temperature related.

This is no big deal for general shooting, but hunting is what I am working for. When I changed to a semi wad-cutter design that can deal with the fouling, I can leave the gun and shells out all night and hold 1 1/4" in the cold counting the first shot up to 1900 fps. Worst group was probably like 2". Above that and it becomes unreliable again unless I harden my bullets which I don't want to do.

No free lunch with cast at higher velocities. For me anyway. If you beat it, you know more than me. After a month or so, let me know what you think. You can do it in a PM if you want.

[charger 1]

I got veral to make this for the 450 ak, cause the way I wanted it to fly fast and hit hard I went LFN, but had him customize it to have one main lube groove due to the short ak neck, and knowing the twist of the ex 45/70 tube would not spin very fast. So after water dropping them and freezing then letting cure I ended up with 24 bn. I figured with the tall ruger rifling and shallow throat lead that would be hard enough. I was getting fair accuracy at best, but getting fliers. So then I decided to use only the main lube groove, leaving the shank one as strictly a scrapper. When I wire brushed before I could fill a bowl with excess super moly. Now I may get a few microscopic flakes. Not even noticeable. Its been atleast in the mid 30's since brushing and I dont see where it'll ever see a brush. I got what I wanted, a point and click without compensation from zero to 220 yds, in a pistol size brush package. She's pure sex

http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM0927.JPG

[charger 1]

PS. I sure as ell dont know more than you, just that I stick like a junk yard dog,LOL

[44man]

Now all of you know some things don't shrink in the cold! Ask the little lady.
My humble opinion is that it is a powder, ignition problem. I would experiment with a different powder in the cold.

[Bass Ackward]

Now all of you know some things don't shrink in the cold! Ask the little lady.
My humble opinion is that it is a powder, ignition problem. I would experiment with a different powder in the cold.


44,

I have used every powder made in that burn rate range and a lot of the others no normally asociated with this cartridge. Every primer.

If you heat up the barrel with one or two shots, you get consistent accuracy as long as you don't let the barrel freeze again. If you shoot one shot and wait 2 hours and shoot another you CAN end up with a two foot group.

The problem for hunting is most often the first shot or two because you usually are using a fouled bore. If it was ignition, then the problem would be persistent. Over 30 degrees, well let's say 40 degrees, I no longer have problems and can raise velocity. Highest accuracy AND highest velocities actually come in the heat of summer. So it sounds almost like over lubrication. But you can eliminate lube.

Or if I take the same powder and slow it down to 1500 fps or below (where I should get even more of an ignition problem if I had one) I don't have the problem. Or if I harden my bullets to withstand the fouling better, I can go higher with no problems. Or I can change design can minimize it.


Charger1,

Interesting thought about removing the lube from the GC groove. That is one thing I would have never thought to have never tried. I have used all manner of wads and fillers. But never removed the check lube.