Second Amendment Crisis

[NVcurmudgeon]

(I'm not nerd enough to fix whatever is causing castboolits to drop my log in. So I'll do this in three parts, that sometimes works.)

It's hard to believe that the Democrats are our enemies and the Republicans are our friends. What has happened over the last 73 years is that the Democrats have passed several increasingly more restrictive gun laws. Then the Republicans return to power and do little or nothing to reverse what the Democrats have done. In that way, the previous Democrat outrage becomes established, and those who believe in the Bill of Rights give thanks that the Republicans are back in power. Eventually, the Democrats get another turn, and so it goes. As a serious observer of firearms legislation for fifty years I submit that most Democrat politicians are our active enemies, and most Republican politicians wish that the whole issue would just go away. Sure, the Republicans bestow a grudging air kiss on those concerned with Second Amendment rights during campaigns, but it is only for purposes of seduction. We all know what happens to those who allow themselves to be seduced. (I number the judicial branch of governmnet among the politicians mentioned above.)

[NVcurmudgeon]

IMO, our enemies are ALL big government politicians, most of the media, most of academia, most of the entertainment industry, much of big business, and a surprising number of "single issue" lobbies meddling in multiple issues, AARP for example. Against so many powerful interests, I see little hope for our rights. At best we can fight a delaying action in the hope that some future government may return to supporting and enforcing the whole Constitution.

There are two widely advocated strategies for maintaining some semblance of the right to keep and bear arms. The first I call "throwing an occasional serf from the troika." We can accede to letting our enemies have a LITTLE success, such as the passage of a ban on .50 cal. BMG rifles. Then we can relax for a while until the wolves demand another bite, and we satisfy them with say, "assault" rifles. This is what we have been doing since 1934. This technique is what Mr. Churchill compared to hoping the crocodile will eat us last. The other strategy is what I call "last ditch." Simply put, it means defending EVERY gun right no matter how ugly we think the other guy's choice of firearm is, or how much we despise his tinfoil hat and cammies. IMO, this would be a slower loss of rights and might panic the antis into allowing a Supreme Court test of the Second Amendment. If we win, we win. If we lose, we learn that we are no longer citizens of a republic, but subjects of an empire, and we are back to April 18, 1775.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Hah! Got it done in the first two parts, thanks for bearing with me.

[NVcurmudgeon]

IMO, our enemies are ALL big government politicians, most of the media, most of academia, most of the entertainment industry, much of big business, and a surprising number of "single issue" lobbies meddling in multiple issues, AARP for example. Against so many powerful interests, I see little hope for our rights. At best we can fight a delaying action in the hope that some future government may return to supporting and enforcing the whole Constitution.

There are two widely advocated strategies for maintaining some semblance of the right to keep and bear arms. The first I call "throwing an occasional serf from the troika." We can accede to letting our enemies have a LITTLE success, such as the passage of a ban on .50 cal. BMG rifles. Then we can relax for a while until the wolves demand another bite, and we satisfy them with say, "assault" rifles. This is what we have been doing since 1934. This technique is what Mr. Churchill compared to hoping the crocodile will eat us last. The other strategy is what I call "last ditch." Simply put, it means defending EVERY gun right no matter how ugly we think the other guy's choice of firearm is, or how much we despise his tinfoil hat and cammies. IMO, this would be a slower loss of rights and might panic the antis into allowing a Supreme Court test of the Second Amendment. If we win, we win. If we lose, we learn that we are no longer citizens of a republic, but subjects of an empire, and we are back to April 18, 1775.

[1Shirt]

A little success on the part of the anti gun lobby is akin to just a little bit pregnant.
We gave a little, and a little more, and a little more, and this is what it came to! Give no more to the anti gun group, and repeal what they have had success with!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[357maximum]

Give no more to the anti gun group, and repeal what they have had success with!
1Shirt!:coffee:

That is alot easier said than done, but I like it. I am afraid the true American citizens will find themselves forced to actively defend their right to be free in my lifetime. And yes, I believe it will involve gunplay, unfortunately. I know when that fateful day comes I will likely get snuffed and go out fighting, but I damn sure plan to take some tyrant/dictator wanna bees with me. The current state of this country has me looking for my foil hat mentioned above, it makes me not proud, but it is just the way it is. We are at war whether we want to admit it yet or not, I am not advocating taking to the streets guns drawn, but damn it sure feels like that is the only way that is ever going to work. I write my representatives every time something comes up, and cannot escape the feeling of peeing into the wind. I really think they simply do not care, and are trying to slowly wean us off our constitutional rights...from here it seems they are succeeding. The state of Michigan actually goes above and beyond the federal level,,,we cannot even own a machinegun/ or silencer,,,it matters not that the federal level says we can with the proper "TAX". I was never a boy scout, but i like the philosophy of being prepared, because someday....someday..we will be glad we have stashed munitions...I have looked through the history books, and it should not be too hard for others to see what is flowing down the pipe...

Michael

[Scrounger]

I have to reluctantly disagree, Michael. The day we use our guns to defend our right to own them is the day we lose them completely. We are a very small percentage of the citizenry of this country and all of the vast majority of uncommitteds would immediately go to the other side. The only thing we have is a holding action, giving up a little bit at a time. They will win bloodlessly; every generation has less and less desire to own and use guns. The available hunting areas and even shooting ranges are shrinking fast. And, thanks to the wonderful politicians we have elected in the last 50 years, times are going to get very tough for our decendents, food, shelter, warmth, clean water, power, all these things are going to take all the time and energy people can muster, no one is going to be thinking of toys, which is how I think of my guns. I'm sure that many of you have children and grand-children who have zero interest in guns. That is the gun future, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

[357maximum]

I have to reluctantly disagree, Michael. The day we use our guns to defend our right to own them is the day we lose them completely. We are a very small percentage of the citizenry of this country and all of the vast majority of uncommitteds would immediately go to the other side. The only thing we have is a holding action, giving up a little bit at a time. They will win bloodlessly; every generation has less and less desire to own and use guns. The available hunting areas and even shooting ranges are shrinking fast. And, thanks to the wonderful politicians we have elected in the last 50 years, times are going to get very tough for our decendents, food, shelter, warmth, clean water, power, all these things are going to take all the time and energy people can muster, no one is going to be thinking of toys, which is how I think of my guns. I'm sure that many of you have children and grand-children who have zero interest in guns. That is the gun future, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Well worded, but I respectfully agree to disagree...I feel we are currently in a dark age right now, and I feel that there is light at the end of the tunnel, you just have to want to see it. I agree most of my guns are toys to me, but at some point they will become necessary tools, and if history has taught me anything...he who rules the tools, rules. I simply am not willing to curl up and play dead...i would actually prefer to be dead than play it. Hopefully some enlightened ones will spring from the woodwork and turn it all around nice and gently like, but I really donot see it happening that way. WE will be forced at some point to either physically fight for our rights ganted to us by our founding fathers, or play dead. I tend to not play fair when I am up against a bigger threat than myself, I KNOW WHAT I AM CAPABLE OF, I just hope like hell they do not ever make me prove myself.....thats all I got to say bout that.

Michael

[Bass Ackward]

The secret that everyone NEEDS to figure out is .... term limits fixes everything.

People will not seek office for the purpose of having a life long "job" and do anything to keep it.

Big money won't invest in something there is no chance of getting a return.

Pretty simple really.

[357maximum]

The secret that everyone NEEDS to figure out is .... term limits fixes everything.

People will not seek office for the purpose of having a life long "job" and do anything to keep it.

Big money won't invest in something there is no chance of getting a return.

Pretty simple really.

Explain further...how does that happen, pretend you are talking to a total political neophyte and dispound on this further please....Speak loudly though it is hard to hear through the foil hat. I thought term limits already existed...

[handyrandyrc]

You have it EXACTLY right, NV. Wise words from a wise man. You are what I would call a "freesteader". You want liberty and freedom for every one, and want to be left well alone.

If any of you guys want to participate in some fun discussion about things like this, head over to www.freesteader.com -- there is a forum there where many of us like-minded individuals participate. Focus isn't on firearms -- it's not a "gun board", although we sometimes do, it's not the purpose of the site. It's not my site, and I don't mean for this to be an advertisement.

We go heavy into discussions about current events, and what we can do to help ourselves and our families.

[handyrandyrc]

Explain further...how does that happen, pretend you are talking to a total political neophyte and dispound on this further please....Speak loudly though it is hard to hear through the foil hat. I thought term limits already existed...

I think what he means is a REAL TERM LIMIT. You serve your time, and then you are OUT AND DONE. No more getting re-elected for the rest of your days. There are term limits, but a Senator can continue to be a Senator forever if they can keep being re-elected.

[handyrandyrc]

WE will be forced at some point to either physically fight for our rights ganted to us by our founding fathers, or play dead. I tend to not play fair when I am up against a bigger threat than myself, I KNOW WHAT I AM CAPABLE OF, I just hope like hell they do not ever make me prove myself.....thats all I got to say bout that.

Michael is right. As much as we all don't want it to come to that, I am afraid that is what will need to happen.

Will you just hand them over when they come to take them away? Or will you stand with us? Michael, I'll share a foxhole with you anytime, brother.

[KYCaster]

TERM LIMITS!!! Wasn't that part of "The Contract With America" the Repubs seduced us with to take the majority in congress away from the Dems?

Does anybody know how many of their promises were actually passed.


Jerry

[Scrounger]

The secret that everyone NEEDS to figure out is .... term limits fixes everything.

People will not seek office for the purpose of having a life long "job" and do anything to keep it.

Big money won't invest in something there is no chance of getting a return.

Pretty simple really.

Let's make it more simple: Draft office holders from a pool of qualified citizens and pass one simple law: ANY official who takes a bribe or acts in any way against the interest of the country is guilty of High Treason and is hanged without appeal.

[357maximum]

Let's make it more simple: Draft office holders from a pool of qualified citizens and pass one simple law: ANY official who takes a bribe or acts in any way against the interest of the country is guilty of High Treason and is hanged without appeal.

I think we have more chance of buying hand grenades in a bubble gum machine, than seeing that come about....We are not doing a very good job of beating the politicians at their games with their rules.....we need to change the game to what we want, and as previously stated..I only see one surefire way to make that happen. I have been looking for a quote from one of them leftwing b.i.t.c.3.$ and cannot find it. She actually stated somethging like this......we should be able to propose and pass any law without fear of reprisal from some pissed off gun toting idiot....but i cannot find it....aaargh. They are only afraid of us when we are armed, that is why they go to so much trouble to disarm us.....then they can do as they darn well please....I for one will dig my foxhole and fight....side by side with true americans such as randy....I hate to get all Michigan Militia sounding, I will not do anything they do not force me to. and I will not do anything until they force it, but they sure are pushing aweful hard,,,,they ain't going to stop until the rewards are less than the energy expended to get it,,,and they have rewards aplenty right now

[Scrounger]

Quote: I have been looking for a quote from one of them leftwing b.i.t.c.3.$ and cannot find it. She actually stated somethging like this......we should be able to propose and pass any law without fear of reprisal from some pissed off gun toting idiot: unquote

Do I need point out that is how a democracy works? The majority decides and everyone lives with it. Work to change the laws, not shoot the law passers. That's Anarchy and we know how that's going to end.

[45 2.1]

Quote: I have been looking for a quote from one of them leftwing b.i.t.c.3.$ and cannot find it. She actually stated somethging like this......we should be able to propose and pass any law without fear of reprisal from some pissed off gun toting idiot: unquote

Do I need point out that is how a democracy works? The majority decides and everyone lives with it. Work to change the laws, not shoot the law passers. That's Anarchy and we know how that's going to end.

Art-
This country is "supposed" to be a Republic, not what they are trying desperately to make it.

[357maximum]

Quote: I have been looking for a quote from one of them leftwing b.i.t.c.3.$ and cannot find it. She actually stated somethging like this......we should be able to propose and pass any law without fear of reprisal from some pissed off gun toting idiot: unquote

Do I need point out that is how a democracy works? The majority decides and everyone lives with it. Work to change the laws, not shoot the law passers. That's Anarchy and we know how that's going to end.

That would be nice if the "MAJORITY" was willing to wake up and not let the vocal minority rule their life...I agree with you on that. You say anarchy like it is a bad thing, when sometimes it is not, true I too know how it ends, but many have died fighting for what is right, just because it does not happen on a sanctioned battlefield does not make it any less noble... I am not saying take to the streets, and fight,,,,yet. Other options should be tried first, but if that fails there are always more optionsm that is all that i am saying.

[45 2.1]

All this is not the thing to be stateing like we are doing on this forum considering the present laws and presidential orders that are in force.

[357maximum]

All this is not the thing to be stateing like we are doing on this forum considering the present laws and presidential orders that are in force.

No one has posted a ralley call or destination. This is all still a discussion, last I knew I could still do that, if not well then that would be different now would it not?
You see how all them amendments come down to supporting one another, start chopping at the tree of liberty at any level and it makes them all weaker. It is not enough to just support the 2nd, we need to ensure all parts are intact, as this is one very good case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm

[45 2.1]

No one has posted a ralley call or destination. This is all still a discussion, last I knew I could still do that, if not well then that would be different now would it not?
You see how all them amendments come down to supporting one another, start chopping at the tree of liberty at any level and it makes them all weaker.

What I am pointing out is that the powers that be have discretionary power thru presidential orders to do anything about anything they please, especially about homeland security. I am not disagreeing with you, just trying to keep you available in times of crisis.

[Charley]

I've seen it suggested that Senators and Reresentatives be selected in a manner similar to petit juries. Might not be the worst idea. We also might consider returning the selection of Senators to the states, as was the original intent and practice of the founding fathers.

I live in a large city with term limits set for the city council...two two year terms, and you are out. It is a double edged sword. While it DOES force the council to turn over on a regular basis, it also means that unelected city staff have much more power than previously, because the councilperson spends at least the first year in office learning the system, and relies heavily on city staff advice.

[357maximum]

What I am pointing out is that the powers that be have discretionary power thru presidential orders to do anything about anything they please, especially about homeland security. I am not disagreeing with you, just trying to keep you available in times of crisis.

Makes it aweful hard to not see WHY some foreign countries hate us. Look at some of the seeds we have planted around the globe, no wonder them seeds have turned into vile vines. We as a whole seem to think we as a country can do anything we want, then we sit back and wonder and cry when people seek revenge on us for shi...stuff we have done TO them. I am openly amzed at times the rest of the world does not unite and wipe us out.

*I am not suggesting it, just looking through others eyes, trying to see what they see*


"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"...LORD ACTON"

[45 2.1]

Makes it aweful hard to not see WHY some foreign countries hate us. Look at some of the seeds we have planted around the globe, no wonder them seeds have turned into vile vines. We a a whole seem to think we as a country can do anything we want, then we sit back and wonder and cry when people seek revenge on us for shi...stuff we have done TO them. I am openly amzed at times the rest of the world does not unite and wipe us out.

*I am not suggesting it, just looking through others eyes, trying to see what they see*

http://members.aol.com/prophecy04/Articles/Prophecy/Washington.html

[357maximum]

One does not need visions to see events unfold. I look at human nature...IE. you hit me in the gut..I hit you in the face....you shoot me in the foot...I shoot you in the balls....it is simple to understand is it not? I know I am never "even" til I am "ahead" everytime I am faced with a bad situation. It is pretty simple truths about the way animals work.

[Uncle R.]

What I am pointing out is that the powers that be have discretionary power thru presidential orders to do anything about anything they please, especially about homeland security. I am not disagreeing with you, just trying to keep you available in times of crisis.

Quite right. We have an administration that has explicitly stated that if they suspect you of being a terrorist they can imprison and torture you, without trial, without judicial review, without a lawyer or any rights at all. The courts haven't slapped it down, the congress hasn't started impeachment proceedings, and the sheeple keep watching American Idol without a murmer of protest. We're arguing about specific laws and rules, and the game is already over.

Welcome to the land of the free. All hail THE GREAT DECIDER, protector of liberty and scourge of evil!

[357maximum]

Quite right. We have an administration that has explicitly stated that if they suspect you of being a terrorist they can imprison and torture you, without trial, without judicial review, without a lawyer or any rights at all. The courts haven't slapped it down, the congress hasn't started impeachment proceedings, and the sheeple keep watching American Idol without a murmer of protest. We're arguing about specific laws and rules, and the game is already over.

Welcome to the land of the free. All hail THE GREAT DECIDER, protector of liberty and scourge of evil!

If you truly believe the game is over, I feel for you....but I can see the roots of them feelings, you would have to be a blatant fool not to....

well i gotta go someone is kicking the door in....................

[Uncle R.]

[QUOTE=357maximum;155182]Makes it aweful hard to not see WHY some foreign countries hate us. Look at some of the seeds we have planted around the globe, no wonder them seeds have turned into vile vines. We as a whole seem to think we as a country can do anything we want, then we sit back and wonder and cry when people seek revenge on us for shi...stuff we have done TO them. I am openly amzed at times the rest of the world does not unite and wipe us out.

*I am not suggesting it, just looking through others eyes, trying to see what they see*

Nawwww..
You must be wrong about that...
Everything WE do is GOOD -
Because we're the good guys.
They reason they hate us is because of our FREEDOM.
I know it's true - I saw it on TV.
Don't worry though, if they hate us because of our freedom they won't have reason to hate us much longer...
:roll:

[357maximum]

I truly feel deep down ,, waaaay deep that we will face one monumental event, and that will bring the ball back into our court, that link that 45 posted even backs me up.....iffin you believe in them sort of things....


As far as us being the good guys, how often has the most powerful been accused of being the good guy?....might does not make right, do not care how they spin it.


For the record...I love my country...hate my government.....simple truths of life I spose...



Oh the door wasn't being kicked in...it was 5 men in a black suv selling girl scout cookies. See Bob I told you they would not care what I was doing on here.....I refuse to be afraid of my government,,,,so should you....you should respect them like a rabid rottweiller, but should not be afraid...:mrgreen:

[Uncle R.]

Oh the door wasn't being kicked in...it was 5 men in a black suv selling girl scout cookies.

For the luva Pete - DON'T EAT THE COOKIES!

:-D

[mike in co]

Quote: I have been looking for a quote from one of them leftwing b.i.t.c.3.$ and cannot find it. She actually stated somethging like this......we should be able to propose and pass any law without fear of reprisal from some pissed off gun toting idiot: unquote

Do I need point out that is how a democracy works? The majority decides and everyone lives with it. Work to change the laws, not shoot the law passers. That's Anarchy and we know how that's going to end.



...i thought you guys were beyond the bs fed you by politicians!
WE DO NOT LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY!
WE LIVE IN 50 REPUBLICS, UNDER A SMALL REPRESENTATIVE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

IF IT HAD BEEN A DEMOCRACY....THAT FILM MAKING DEMOCRATE WOULD BE IN OFFICE NOT BUSH.

[Scrounger]

Next year we end up with 'that film making Democrat' or Hillary, guaranteed. There is no Santa Claus.

[sundog]

Mike, you're right. We do not live in a democracy. But calling the Fed 'small'??? Come on...

[leftiye]

I hate to sound like a broke record fellas.... In the meantime lets us try to develop the zumbo weapon as a means of possibly reversing some of this.

I'm very tired of feeling helpless while people I consider to be tools, and fools destroy the life I want to have. First, let's refuse to buy into the idea that we can do nothing about all of this. If we do, we've lost already, and that's what THEY ALL WANT (both sides) - "shut up and let me do it my way" is the cry of all levels of government. Plus, IF THERE ISN"T A WAY, THEN MAKE ONE - DAMMIT!

Second, let's wind up the NRA first and get them on the stick. It will multiply our power immensely if the only organization worth a spit out there ( no offense meant) were to start listening to it's members instead of doing anything, and everything else. This is as I see it the biggest weakness of the NRA. They're adding to the apathy instead of engendering hope when they ignore us. If they had however many it is - rabid activists working for them instead of the same number of - milk goats as it is now - dya think itt'd make a difference? Ya think? Zumbo the NRA! On their webstie as we don't want to give the a$$h@l*s any ammo.

Then when we've got ourselves all informed as to who, when, how to act then we move on to get something done. Then when we've got as many as possible like minded supporters working with us, and coordinated, Let's get some!

[NVcurmudgeon]

Several sensible reforms of how our representatives are elected have been proposed in this thread. All require Constitutional amendments. Constitutional amendments require a 2/3 majority of both houses of Congress (today's politicians) and ratification by 3/4 of the State Legislatures, or by conventions in 3/4 of the states (more of today's politicians.) These reforms have about as much chance of being adopted as a pork chop has of being thrown past a hungry wolf. What is really needed is a turn out of more than 30-40 % of the voters, informed about what kind of statists, morons, and scoundrels are running for office. Until that happy day, we can only go on proving Mr. Jefferson right in his view that we get the kind of government we deserve.

[manleyjt]

Just a few comments for everyone to drag through the mud.

1)Do not forget to offer support to those who do support your views. Regardless of what moniker follows their name. The party line is the party line because we as voters let it be that way. In my state, if you are not registered with one of the parties you cannot vote in the primary. As an independent voter you cannot vote for who is the right person for you, until it is the general election. So if there is a candidate from the opposite party that does stand for what a person believes, they are outed by the party due to party line. I hate the fact that I cannot vote for who I think is the right candidate early on.

2)On term limits, I think they can be a double edged sword. For small states (read that as all the 11 western states less 1) you will never have a say due to limited votes unless you can get someone with seniority into some place of power (still doesn't happen often). On the other hand loss of institutional knowledge due to short tenure could be a good thing.

3) all of you that have children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren, When was the last time you took them with you to vote. As a child I had the sincere pleasure of going to the polls every election with my grandmother who watched me while my single mother went to work to support me. You can bash me for that topic later, my point is I learned form an early age that it is important for every individual to stand up for their voice however little that voice is.

4) Being a literalist has it's downside. I too am a literalist when it comes to our constitution (state and federal). The trouble with being a literalist is that you need to understand the language at the time the documents were written to be able to formulate the intent behind whatever it is that is being read. too often we take the current definition and apply it to words that were used under a different meaning.

5) The trouble with being involved is that it takes work. We as Americans in general do not like to do more work that absolutely necessary. You can look at many things that plague the US and it boils down to this. How many of you cuss the generations younger than you for not having a strong work ethic? How many of you complain about the state of our manufacturing industry in the US but buy foreign made products because they are cheaper or more convenient when you are at the big box store? This also comes to our government ( I know I work for one), no one has an interest until there is a perceived affect on them. Just go to a public informational meeting someday and see how many people are too busy to attend. I could go on and on about this but you should get the idea I think most of us are lazy or cannot determine what is important and what is not. When was the last time you attended a city council meeting, a state legislative session, or a meeting of some interest group?

6)It is our job to make sure people take an active interest. The next election instead of saying I wish more people would vote, take another person with you that you know does not vote. The pitiful amount of time it takes to register will give them enough time to realize how stupid they are once they try to fill out the ballot and may make the gears start to move.

Anyway just wanted to share in the session.

[Old Ironsights]

I hate to sound like a broke record fellas.... In the meantime lets us try to develop the zumbo weapon as a means of possibly reversing some of this.

I'm very tired of feeling helpless while people I consider to be tools, and fools destroy the life I want to have. ....

Read, and weep (begins with the belligerant at post #22) - for this is why/how we are losing

http://www.indianasportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5750

[sundog]

Keep researching and reading:

http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm

This one is pretty interesting, considering the names attached to it.