Need a laugh...newbie melting lead !

[dmdracer]

Well I found a turkey fryer base, hose, burner today at Wall Mart on clearence for $20.00, might want to check them out if you need one.
I set it up and got the pot out (wife/garage sale) and put one of my old racercar bread pan "ingots" approx 25lbs. in and fired it up. Got the chunk liquid and it had all kinds of crusty stuff on top so I thought I'd add some candle stubs... no problem... then fire...startled me for a second but remember reading here that could happen, stirred it up and tried to scrape off the crust. got most of it but it seemed like it kept producing more....thicker clumps and the top was sort of gold and purple color hmmm, what to do now, well I took my new stainless ladle that I bolted a wood handle on and scooped some up to pour in my new steel muffin pan...no problem but....they have this clumpy/crusty stuff on top. must have done something wrong so I got on this forum looking for a description of what it should look like, been looking for an hour and have not found what I think I need to know... :-?
I then thought of my "ingots" out there cooling and went to dump them out and hmmm...they are stuck in there, got the hammer and proceeded to destroy the pan but the ingots are still stuck. probably no one here has ever done that huh?
Well I sure don't know anything about this casting thing and now I can prove it...thought...how hard can I screw up melting some lead for when my furnace, mold, etc gets here anyday now....
Ok, you all laugh at me now for awhile...thats enough...now please tell me what I'm looking for in the liquid b4 I pour into ingots, should I scrape off all the crud b4 dipping? Guess I'm so confused,read something about it is "good" stuff...tin or something and it should melt back in. did I have it too hot, purple color, or not hot enough? I don't have a thermometer yet..kinda pricey from midway and thought I could found one local but notta, only one I found went to 500 degrees, thought I read you all get it up to 700 or so. I feel so stupid, thought I learned a little something the past few months but guess I need casting 101 from the begining for dummies. is there something like that somewhere? Ok laugh a little more.
sorry this is long.
help !
Dave

[Willbird]

That would not be a multi piece muffin tin would it ?? with the cups sort of seamed into the flat piece ?? those do not work well for the reason you stated, they are not very strong, and all the new ones are made that way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63507&item=4389621508&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I like this style myself.......

as to the crusty stuff............I use motor oil to flux outdoors, and the fire is good, cuts down on smoke, and it is better to light it off on your terms than have it light itself when you are not expecting it.

all things have a learning cure, your doin fine...at least it did not go as bad as my first acraglas bedding job where the glass ran out of the stock, thru a hole in the bench, and glued all my power tools to the shelf in the cabinet under the bench hehe.

Bill

[KYCaster]

Dave: Just a guess, but it sounds like you're too hot. The black crust that breaks when you poke it is just crud (oil, grease, wax, whatever) and it takes a long time for it to form the crust at lower temp.
"I thought I'd add some candle stubs.......then fire" Again, probably too hot if it flames immediately. A marble sized chunk of candle wax should be plenty for 25lbs. Better still is about a dozen lubed boolits. Seems to carry the wax deeper into the metal and if they melt faster than you can get your ladle and stir it you're probably too hot.
The gold and purple film is oxides. That's normal, but if you see it really quick, then again, too hot. You should be able to flux, clean and pour your ingots before you get the oxide layer with plenty of time to spare.
Any more quistions? Just ask, somebody here will have the answer. Welcome aboard.

Jerry

[David R]

Someday you are going to look back at that and laugh. I think you had the fire too hot too. A colman stove will work, A turkey fries is prolly 300,000 to 500,000 BTUs. Waaaay too much. How long did it take to melt your lead? If it takes 1/2 hour, you are close to having the flame right.

I have never had the lead stick to anything. IF you had flux in the lead I suppose its possible you soldered the pan to the lead. Especially if its too hot.

A small amount of boolit lube, or a piece of candle, the size of a nickle or two plus some sawdust will make a nice flux. I just learned that on this board a week ago. Makes a big difference.

Maybe Bullshop would write a short article on fluxing lead. I have been doing this for almost 18 years. I made good boolits, but they are getting even better because I hang around here.

When you melted the WWs in the first place, all you wanted is weight. Now you want clean alloy. You will get it. Just go do it again, turn the heat down once the lead is melted. All it has to do is pour. Nothing more than that will help much.

[Willbird]

I bought a 120,000 btu propane burner from morebeer.com, and I also bought a turkey fryer from gander mountian, they are the same exact burner.

Bill

[dmdracer]

Round 2
After my post I went out and made a steel ingot mold out of 1/2" angle, saw a post here about it. Looks sorta like this > VVVV.
Begin melting the first batch over, things went better. I have 12 ingots in the 3 to 4 lb range that don't look too bad but I don't think they are 100 %
I'm amazed of all the trash that seems to grow out from within...yellowish powder kind of stuff, just keeps appearing...normal? do you keep skimming and wait, theres always a "skim" of something on top and since I have been using a ladle to pour from to the mold, that skim cools and strings creating crud looking lead....did that make any sense?? Anyway, very good info from you all.
Jerry, yeah, that first time, I do now, think I was too hot, 2nd time I lowered the heat and could tell some difference, still seems difficult to dip without getting the skim.
Bill, yes, you've "scene" those pans have you :)
my "VVVV" mold seems to be working good...just bad lead !
David, I did use the sawdust, after it burned I tried to skim off the "carbon", maybe thats part of my struggle, ladle too big? hard to get it all out,you guys mention pour....does that mean you leave the crud on top and pour out the nice lead only somehow? Come on "light bulb" click on !!!!
Yeah, I'm sure I'll laugh a few times ..."looking back"
well, thats the latest on this beginner, hope it's all good fun for you all, I can imageing what you all are thinking about this rookie. It is enjoyable and challanging for me and I appreciate all the kindness in helping me learn this art.

Dave

[Buckshot]

............Yup as others mentioned, at first you were too hot. Lead, like iron oxidizes as a reaction with oxygen and the hotter it is, the faster it happens. You can dip through it as good clean metal should pour out from under it. Just remember that each time you dip you disturb the surface and expose fresh metal to oxygen.

Once it reaches a point that it becomes a pain, just flux and continue on. After you have done 3 or so pots, you should empty the pot of lead and then dump out the black sand you'll find in the bottom. This is crud trapped under the lead. I suppose a kind of surface tension is at work. Normally this stuff would float. If you were to scrape across the bottom and up the side you'll most always bring some of this up.

.............Buckshot

[David R]

Try skimming with a slotted spoon. I have been using some kind of spatula that came with a wok I got for chirstmass one year. I only use my dipper once the metal is cleaned up. "Skim". Like a ice fishing skimmer. The big round thing your wife uses to get peas out of the boiling water. Buy a cheap one a the grocery store. It will leave some stuff where the holes are, but all the lead falls back into the pot. When skimming my bottom pour pot, I just use a teaspoon. Push all the stuff to one side then scoop it up.

Stir when fluxing, scrape the bottom of the pot so the stuff on the bottom floats up. You should end up with a nice shiny surface. Maybe if you turn the heat off towards the end, it won't oxadize so much.

[David R]

Buck
If what you have is mono type then the sludg is oxidised tin and antimony. You have to flux it back into the melt. I use bee comb rich in wax and bee parts. It will work at lower temp but about700 to 800 works best. other waxes like parifin will work but burn off too fast to get the metals to remix. You need a flux that will burn hot and produce lots of carbon. Bee wax with fine hardwood saw dust will work. Stir the pot well and put the flux on the sludg and light it. While its burning stir gently and cut it with your spoon like you were diceing onions. After the flux is burned off there should bee no metal left on the surface just black dust, carbon light in weight. Skim off the black dust and you will have a smooth shiney surface. You need the increased heat at the surface to get the chemicle reaction to take place. The oxygen has to release from the metal and bond with the carbon and go by by to leave behind nice shiny metal. Hope this helps, have fun!
BIC/BS

[Wayne Smith]

If you haven't totally destroyed it, that muffin pan will work, too, but only when its well rusted. I did exactly the same thing, and left it out for a couple of weeks, and then in despiration (I had nothing else yet) tried it again and the ingots fell out! I'm guessing its the same process as smoking a mold.

Actually, it sounds like you are right about the right place on the learning curve! Keep it up, it gets easier!

[wills]

I wrecked a new aluminum muffin pan, coated with some kind of non stick stuff, before I found a slightly rusty steel pan at a garage sale, which works fine. If you don’t have a year to haunt garage sales, try one of the cast iron cornbread pans.

I push the dross around the pot with a putty knife and dip it out with a slotted spoon.

[StarMetal]

Wills

How fast were your driving it? Did you get hurt? Did you have your seat belt on?
Last, but not least, did your airbag deploy?

Joe

[wills]

I got slowed down to about twelve pounds an hour, only my equanimity was hurt, and no, SWMBO didn’t say anything about it.

[HTRN]

Well, I looked in a Walmart in Woodbridge NJ and no such luck.

To those of you looking for one - try Dick's sporting goods, they have a real nice Brinkmann for $40 bucks. At this point I'm debating over whether to simply duplicate Kenjudo's smelter, stick with the 100 pound electric, or go balls out and build an ubersmelter that would rival MOAS - I already have a high pressure regulator(goes to 50PSI+, those regs on the cookers only go to 15 or twenty. :shock:) And Brownells sells mixers for their pipe burners for their blueing setups.

Imagine four mixers each feeding a hoop of black pipe running at say 35 psi...

I think that it would actually require a 100lb bulk tank because I don't think a 20lb bbq tank could vaporize propane fast enough!

Pot would probably be a chunk of large diameter pipe welded to steel plate with a bottom pour setup.


HTRN

[Goatlips]

Yup, nope. The turkey friers at the Wall-Mart in Troy, Mi are still $37.50 but I did buy a converter for my camp stove to use big tank propane, under my 15" dutch oven; augmented by my weed burner from the top it works pretty quick anyhow. And real close to the ground, lots safer IMHO. Got 12 buckets of WW to do this year.

Thanks for the heads up anyway, dmdracer!

Goatlips

[buck1]

""I'm amazed of all the trash that seems to grow out from within...yellowish powder kind of stuff, just keeps appearing...normal? do you keep skimming and wait, theres always a "skim" of something on top and since I have been using a ladle to pour from to the mold, that skim cools and strings creating crud looking lead....did that make any sense?? Anyway, very good info from you all.""

NO KIDDING??
I got a hold of some lead like that a wile back. It acted just like yours!!!! The trouble was in the alloy. It was A strange alloy!! Lots of brillant colors and a yellowish powder all over the place. Not tinoxide but something else ,not often reported by casters here. I bet you would not be having near as much trouble with Wheel Wts or a good alloy.
My thoughts are your alloy is cantaminated with something. Swing by a mom/pop tire shop and get some wheel wts. Try them from a clean pot. I bet your trouble will go away. If its the same type of stuff I had, I could not clean mine. So I melted it down in to ,strangly enugh......Stock car wts for a buddy of mine!! (things that make you go hmm!)
but If you are fighting a grey light film that turns in to a crummy substance the saw dust and wax and a cooler temp will fix it, but it comes back. and you need to reflut it again.
Also use aluminun pans and they wont weld to your ingots. I had to use a tourch to melt mine out once. Just my .02.............buck

[ejjuls]

Hey all,

After reading the long thread of conversation I have to point out one thing that might be an issue with dmdracer's alloy. If he is getting lots of brilliant colors that appear instantly after removing the dross after fluxing - and no matter what temp you use or trick you employ - the colors just wont go away.....my experience says ZINC is your culprit. If the concentration isn't too high the alloy can still be used, often the temp has to be jacked way up to get a decent cast. Zinc has a way of making really HARD bullets - and is a reall bugger to clean the equip up after a zinc contamination issue. If the zinc is in "enough" of a contamination level at normal casting temps the first inch or so of the pot acts like chunky cottage cheese when you try and do any stirring or dipping from the pot. I have cast some bullets in a high zinc alloy for the sake of experimenting - in my case the "turkey fryer" routine was the only way to get the metal hot enough so it could be used - bullets came out with a higher shrinkage factor and were undersized - they shot well out of my .44 pistol and penetrated like a full metal jacked bullet. Zinc is a nasty metal do deal with overall in a lead casting setup - not something I would recommend playing with unless you are inclined too.

Just a thought I wanted to throw out there.....hopefully this isn't the problem
OHH - Forgot to mention, I have dealt with zinc contamination that occurred from metal spoons from the dollar store being used in my casting pot - not always from WW metal! Something to look out for - anymore I only use "good" quality spoons and stirring devices....

Gotta run or I would add more - Work beckons
Eric

[dmdracer]

Wanted to update you all on my melting saga, think the light finally came on.....my 3rd session, I "borrowed" a slotted spoon from my wife and turned the heat down and bingo..success, I have approx 80 ingots in the 3 to 4 lb. range that look like silver, clean and shinney, not as tough as I was making it out to be. thanks all.
my concern is to what type of lead I have, some friends dropped off some lead a couple years ago for the racecar that were sheets sort of, looks like it was cut into sheet sections and had a steel or stainless 1/4" pipe connections attached on the side, another "chunk" was about 4" round and maybe 2 ft long and appears to have some telephone type wires run thru it, I have'nt melted that yet but don't know if it is more of a pure lead type or what....will it be hard enough like WW's ?
I can run my finger nail along the side and it does not come off, just leaves a very small scratch or mark from my finger nail...good to use??
My buddy is a mechanic at a dealership and is going to bring me some WW's tonight, says he can keep me supplied, "yes" :) guess what I'll be doing this eve ? :wink:
My local Wall Mart is in Brownsburg Ind. They had about 5 of the turkey fryers I spoke of for $20.00 clearence, anyone close and need one should check them out.
thanks again.
Dave

[Willbird]

DM

you can compare two samples of lead by casting a bullet of each Keith type semi-wadcutters work great), air cool them both, and then put them nose to nose in a vise, and squeeze, it is readily apparent which is harder.

you can also do this with a water drop to see if your alloy will heat treat, only make say 2-3 of each and repeat the test at 24 and 48 hours.

Bill

[David R]

Glad you got it straight, now you are hooked. Already melting more lead than you will need for a year or two. I would love a hardness tester, but $s are in demand for other things, like powder, primers................. SO the vice test is a good one.

I was at a radiator shop to pick up a repair and asked about what they do with the stuff from the bottom of the tank. They solds me 1/2 bucket of wheel weights and the other 1/2 full of stuff from the bottom of the radiator tank for $10.00 I melted down the stuff from the bottom of the tank and ended up with 40 lbs of solder. Wheel weights are no biggie for me, I own a garage. I keep em all. I should be good for quite a few years at 9 lbs wheel weights to 1 lb solder.

[Willbird]

heck that would give you 5/95........1-2 percent should make them fill nicely.....I snagged 200 lbs of 60-40 just like that for 20 bucks, when I can't sleep at night I go out to the garage and just look at it, it gives me a warm loving feeling knowing I have enough for almost forever :-)


not quite hehe, but it is good stuff

Bill