Really Heavy Subsonic .44 Boolit

[longbow]

With many people looking at subsonic loads and very heavy for caliber bullets/boolits for Whisper, Blackout and other subsonic/heavy bullet applications, I am wondering if anyone has gone to extremes in say .44 or .45 (my interest is .44) to make use of an extremely heavy bullet in fast twist rifling to produce a .44 "Whisper" type cartridge.

I am thinking wildcat without the wildcat brass and seating the boolit out partly so it won't chamber in unmodified guns and partly to keep a reasonable powder volume. All it should require is a long throat to allow extra boolit length. Shouldn't be a problem for any single shot or bolt action of medium length or longer.

What I am thinking is a boolit like the one designed by Dr. Richard Gunn, illustrated here (graphic attached as well):

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html

but scaled to .44 (shown is .45) and probably about 400 grs. or thereabouts.

It has a high ballistic coefficient so should carry energy well just as other rounds of this type do. It should also be easy on powder and not too noisy ~ at least if loaded subsonic.

I would have to work out how deep it could go into the cartridge and still provide enough powder volume to get reasonable velocity but I suspect it would still require a long throat. Also, by seating to normal weight bullet depth into the cartridge with lots of lead sticking out there should be enough powder capacity to provide supersonic capability if desired. It might even duplicate performance of some larger BP cartridges.

A boolit of this style would also work in a .444 just by seating deep for reduced velocity loads but would require fast twist rifling.

Just sort of thinking out loud here and wondering if anyone else has had similar thoughts ~ heavy boolit, moderate velocity, low noise, standard brass/dies/etc.

Actually, it makes me think the final result would look a lot like subsonic .22 ammo ~ lots of lead compared to brass!

Any thoughts pro, con, crazy, whatever?

Longbow

[shooter93]

I have several suppressed rifles and the one we did on a Number 1 in 45-70 is pretty impressive. We generally use 500-520 grain casr bullets. The 45-70 case is too long although it hasn't hampered accuracy at all. I believe we will switch to a pistol round though for the shorter case length. Not 45 colt but something just a bit longer....Casull or 460 Smith?. nothing wrong per se with the 45-70 with unique being the most accrurate powder by far when shooting around 1050 fps. A 500 grain bullet sails through a pressure treated 6x6 at 300 yards. I also have a 30 caliber suppressed gun and I'm just now experimenting with the 247 grain cast. One problem with the 45 was the suppressor is quite large but I think we'll make a couple that are lighter....maybe using titainium. If you get a suppressor or make one for cast bullets make sure it can broken down for cleaning.

[longbow]

Unfortunately even if I do build a gun it won't have a suppressor. They are not allowed in Canada.

I am just looking at the idea of an efficient, low recoiling round that chucks a large hunk of lead and since I have lots of .44 mag brass and bullet moulds the thought occurred to me that I could use the moulds I have for "plinkers" and a heavy boolits for long range.

If .44 mag has too small a volume to get heavy boolits into low supersonic territory or at least right just under supersonic then .445 Supermag should work.

It seems the .300 Whisper and .300 Blackout are quite popular but I do not hear much about the larger bore Whisper style cartridges. I just thought this might be a way to get there without custom brass and also to be able to use bullet moulds I already have for "plinkers".

Actually, the .460 S&W might be a better choice as the brass is factory and the chamber would also accept .454 Casull and .45 Long Colt. However, I don't have any .45 guns or moulds.

One thought I have had is converting a Lee Enfield. I have seen them in .45-70 and .444 Marlin so it should be doable.

Just toying with the idea now and wondering if the .44 mag cartridge volume is large enough.

Longbow

[bearcove]

You could use 445 SM or 444 Marlin and trim to what ever length you want. I have a 436218 365gr mold that I was going to use in a 444 marlin contender carbine bbl. Its pointy and dia is 430 with a 436 dia base band that i'd just size down in a push through die. If coal is not a prob then 44 mag should work for 1000fps ballpark with a longer barrel.

[longbow]

That 480 gr. .45 looks too long but then again, it would certainly be a heavy for caliber boolit in .44. The 247 gr. in a Blackout cartridge is awfully long for caliber too! This boolit would probably have to be seated with two lube grooves exposed. Of course design could be changed to make it a nose bore rider or just narrow groove diameter driving bands to fill the throat... maybe Loverin style?

That 480 gr. .45 boolit supposedly has a ballistic coefficient of .50 at 900 FPS so pretty high. The goal is to launch slow but to hang on to velocity tenaciously. Not sure what the ballistic coefficient is for the 436218 but I think it is a bit light.

Overall it may be easier to just use .444 brass and seat deep to use up volume and make subsonic/low velocity loading easier but if you figure a .44 mag with lots of lead sticking out could reach at least 1000 FPS that is what I am thinking of. I would like to be able to load into supersonic range but not far ~ maybe 1200 to 1400 FPS for "high power" loads. A long throat would allow the lead to hang out there.

Like I said, just thinking and wondering if anyone has done this in .44.

Longbow

[bearcove]

Not sure where you went there.

[longbow]

Not sure what you mean but maybe I am rambling a bit. Kinda thinking out loud I guess.

With regards to the 436218, I think it is light for what I am looking for. Also, it may not be the right design for subsonic use.

My goal is to be able to use .44 mag brass if there is enough volume to get a 400 + gr. boolit to low supersonic velocities. Not sure if just pushing into supersonic velocities has any bad downside or not other than going transonic in flight. A lot of BP cartridges are in that range though so...?

If .44 mag brass just doesn't have the volume to provide at least low supersonic velocity even with boolit seated out then that is a no go. Anything else becomes a wildcat requiring custom brass.

.445 Supermag may not be a wildcat anymore but I would hazard a guess that brass is not readily available. At least .44 mag brass could be used in the chamber though. I think .445 brass can be made from .30-40 Krag or .303 Brit so a possibility.

Like I said, just thinking and wondering about performance from the .44 mag brass.

Does that make more sense?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Longbow

Longbow

[archmaker]

Ran across the thread on the 35 Whelen on here and click, click, click and ran across someone building a 444 Marlin, Bolt Action based upon the 30-06 or 308.

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-cartridges/32036-rimless-444-marlin.html

So if you are like me with a 30-06 Savage 110 I could get a switch barrel for the 444 and that would be the only change I would have to do. The 308 might be a good option for your project, (444 Rimless Marlin X 2).

[johnly]

I have a NEI mold that casts 375 gr .430" bullets. I've been toying with modifying a sporterized P-14 I bought to 444 Marlin just to shoot this bullet.

John

[longbow]

I have toyed with the idea of a bolt action .444 standard or maybe rimless using a Lee Enfield action. Certainly there would be enough case volume in .444 to do what I want but then I need brass and dies as well.

The goal here was to find out if I could get usable velocity from standard .44 mag brass and heavy high ballistic coefficient boolit. That would also allow use of regular weight boolits for plinking and the ability to use factory ammo as well. The extra long throat might cause some accuracy problems with standard length boolits though.

I will have to take a look at the big bore Whispers to see what sort of volume they have.

I guess reloading software might offer a load and potential velocity but then I don't have any reloading software.

Anyway, Santa is coming so I have to go to bed!

Merry Christmas to all!

Longbow

[olafhardt]

I decided to play a version of this game with a 500 s&w?? I wanted a very quiet thumper for the. brush. The problem with light loads is TOO MUCH powder capacity. I seat a 365grain reversed Lee modern minie over 6.4 grains of unique. I havent cronied it but it's not very loud. Using titegroup for reduced loads I never got subsonic with Lee 440 grain slugs. BTW this is out of anNEF handi rifle. I think that with 600grain pointed boolit seated real deep one could get 1000 feet a second with little trouble. I would guess that short, fat, flat base would stabalize better than long skinny, boat tail. You might could get a 44, 45 etc bored out to a fast twist 500 and shoot 800 to 1000 grain subsonics. The recoil would be in the range of 12 gauge turkey loads.

[44man]

The biggest problem would be to find the right twist rate. It is going to need to be faster.
We tried 405 gr boolits in the revolvers, 1 in 20" and they turned sideways at 50 yards.
A penetration test showed rather poorly because of the lower velocity and not enough stability.

[longbow]

44man:

Thanks for that! That is the kind of info I was looking for.

.44 barrels are (at least to my knowledge) not that common and certainly not in fast twist of less than 1:20. Other calibers tend to offer better selection of twists.

Do you know what velocity you were getting?

What was the bullet shape?

If you were using them in revolver, they must have been seated very deep or you have a loooong cylinder on that gun!

I have thought about the same idea using .500 S&W like olafhardt says but it is a bit bigger than I wanted plus I already have all the gear for .44. Faster twist wouldn't hurt light boolit use for plinking and I have several moulds.

I am thinking that the boolit should be 400 to maybe 450 grs. and similar to the one shown above for subsonic efficiency. I guess I should start with twist to stabilize that heavy a boolit then see if barrels are available other than custom cut.

Merry Christmas!

Longbow

[Chill Wills]

44man:

Thanks for that! That is the kind of info I was looking for.

.44 barrels are (at least to my knowledge) not that common and certainly not in fast twist of less than 1:20. Other calibers tend to offer better selection of twists.

Merry Christmas!

Longbow

Google Ron Smith Canadian rifle barrel maker. He offers faster twists in the .430" A friend had a special project rebuilding a very obsolete cartridge rifle and used a 17-1 430 barrel from Ron Smith. Ron also makes a Gain Twist for about the same price. Not as much as you would think at all!
And I agree, twist will need to be faster than common for long bullet-subsonic

[44man]

44man:

Thanks for that! That is the kind of info I was looking for.

.44 barrels are (at least to my knowledge) not that common and certainly not in fast twist of less than 1:20. Other calibers tend to offer better selection of twists.

Do you know what velocity you were getting?

What was the bullet shape?

If you were using them in revolver, they must have been seated very deep or you have a loooong cylinder on that gun!

I have thought about the same idea using .500 S&W like olafhardt says but it is a bit bigger than I wanted plus I already have all the gear for .44. Faster twist wouldn't hurt light boolit use for plinking and I have several moulds.

I am thinking that the boolit should be 400 to maybe 450 grs. and similar to the one shown above for subsonic efficiency. I guess I should start with twist to stabilize that heavy a boolit then see if barrels are available other than custom cut.

Merry Christmas!

Longbow
Someone sent us the boolits to test. It is a WFNGC, why it has a GC is beyond me??? (Might be because of seating depth where the base goes into the brass taper.) The boolit is 1.095" long, has 2 crimp grooves.
The instructions call for cutting brass to 1.250" but I didn't bother.
The load was 13.8 gr of 2400 for a velocity of 1020 fps from a 5-1/2" barrel. It called for a CCI 350 that I think was a mistake because the guy said use a very hard crimp so there might have been ignition problems with the reduced powder space and a forceful primer. I don't remember what primer I did use.
They were pleasant to shoot but every hole at 50 yards showed signs of tipping, a few, very much so. They can't be shot fast enough for stability with the slow twist. Shooting them slower would be worse.

[longbow]

44man:

Thanks again, more good info. It looks like getting the velocity with a heavy boolit is possible anyway.

I was thinking that 1:20" might do it but it looks like no to that at least for 400 gr. or heavier boolit. From a rifle barrel velocity might be high enough to provide stability at 1:20" but faster twist looks to be a requirement. I doubt there are any factory barrels rifled with faster twist but I will check. If not then twist really doesn't matter as it will be cut to suit requirements.

I was hoping for a twist available in factory barrels. Oh well.

Hmmmm, that got me thinking and I did some more digging on that Dr. Richard Gunn design. I see that it has a stability factor of 2.5 at 900 FPS when shot in a 1:16" twist.

Subsonic isn't really a requirement since I can't use a suppressor but the goal is a heavy ballistically efficient payload at 1000 to maybe 1200 FPS using .44 mag brass in a rifle barrel of 22" or so.

So there are some questions answered anyway:

- it looks like the .44 mag brass has enough volume to provide the velocity I am looking for (at least with boolit seated out)
- a .405 gr. at 1020 FPS is not stable out of 1:20 twist
- I am likely looking at a 1:16" twist for a boolit of 400+ grs. in .44

Thanks 44man, that was a big help.

Longbow

[BAGTIC]

When you get into the 1100-1200 fps range you are in the transonic range where drag and turbulence sudenly and greatly increase. This is not going to help accuracy. Better to stay higher or lower.

Is your interest shooting targets or hunting?

[mdi]

Not to get too off track here, but speed of sound is about 1100 fps, why not start trying a 300 gr. bullet loaded to 900 - 1000 fps? Easy to do, I found 1,000 fps loads (18" bbl) in my Hornady manual. Haven't checked my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook though...

[BAGTIC]

I got my .445 Supermag brass from Starline at reasonable prices. Very good brass too.

[longbow]

I guess for now the goal is both target/plinking and possibly hunting.

As mentioned, it is the big bore Whisper idea that got me going but basically the performance I am looking for would be similar to several old BP cartridges but in a smaller package being .44 mag brass.

Yes, probably best to stay away from transonic velocities but I would like the ability to get into supersonic even if only over a 200 yard or so range. That may improve performance for hunting within the supersonic range. If that isn't doable or practical then just under 1100 FPS would do.

A 300 gr. boolit will not have near the ballistic coefficient I am looking for. As mentioned, that Gunn design has a ballistic coefficient of .5 (at low velocity) which is really high. Think of the .300 Blackout/Whisper with a 247 gr. boolit ~ that is a lot of lead in a little cartridge. This would be a fatter cartridge but same idea.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have seen several articles where the guy was using Garrett .44cal ammo with 340 gr WFN's for hogs and the like. They are pretty serious out of a Marlin carbine, but these are full power loads and with that big a boolit carry a serious price on the back end of the 5.5lb gun.

Loaded down to 900-1000 I still bet they would go thru just about anything you could want to shoot. You would almost need a HP to help dump some of the wasted energy carried by a boolit like what you're talking.

In Brian Pearce's Article on the .44 Special in Handloader #236,,, he states that a 300 gr boolit at 1000 fps from a pistol will go clean thru a Bull elk. That's 24" plus of penetration from a 4 5/8" barrel.

Using that statement as a bench mark, a longer boolit at the same speed is only going to increase penetration.

I would submit that anything that gets shot with one of these boolits, will stay shot!

How many of what, do you want to shoot thru at one time?

Randy

[44man]

I have seen several articles where the guy was using Garrett .44cal ammo with 340 gr WFN's for hogs and the like. They are pretty serious out of a Marlin carbine, but these are full power loads and with that big a boolit carry a serious price on the back end of the 5.5lb gun.

Loaded down to 900-1000 I still bet they would go thru just about anything you could want to shoot. You would almost need a HP to help dump some of the wasted energy carried by a boolit like what you're talking.

In Brian Pearce's Article on the .44 Special in Handloader #236,,, he states that a 300 gr boolit at 1000 fps from a pistol will go clean thru a Bull elk. That's 24" plus of penetration from a 4 5/8" barrel.

Using that statement as a bench mark, a longer boolit at the same speed is only going to increase penetration.

I would submit that anything that gets shot with one of these boolits, will stay shot!

How many of what, do you want to shoot thru at one time?

Randy
Not always true. If a boolit is not stable penetration can be worse.
But you need to look at things. We want penetration but we also want energy applied at the right place in an animal. That means a velocity, stability, accuracy and boolit work applied match.
Just going heavier then what is stable is not right. A 335 gr boolit at 1160 fps from a .45 colt will go through a 16" tree, cut a huge grape vine in half and go so deep in the ground I could not dig it up. Making the boolit heavier will not help because velocity goes down as does straight flight. There is always balance. You can't tilt it.
Some think a 700 gr boolit from a .500 S&W would work. No, not in my lifetime!
I have found around 330 gr is the limit in the .44 mag revolver with a 10" barrel. Shorten the barrel and you need to lighten the boolit.
The Lee 310, LBT 320 and my 330 gr sucked from a Marlin 1 in 38" twist. I could not shoot them fast enough.
Some things can't be done and pixie dust will not change it.

[longbow]

Randy:

I guess my goal is somewhat academic in that I just want a big bore "Whisper". Lots of people seem to be building and shooting .300 Whispers and Blackouts. I want a "fat' one based on readily available brass and dies and preferably using .44 mag brass or maybe .445 Supermag.

Again, the heavy boolit is designed to have a very high ballistic coefficient so it isn't just about penetration, it is also about trajectory and carrying energy to a more distant target than the 300/330 gr. boolit is likely to do.

The blunt shape of the Gunn design would also be a far better hunting design then a typical .30 cal subsonic boolit too. Also, the bore size would be very versatile for me as I have lots of .44 moulds, brass and dies.

If I had a .45-70 I would likely just use a boolit like the Gunn boolit above and light load but I don't and currently don't have the toy money to buy or build one and get all the associated gear.

I did some more searching and turned up a more complete article on the Gunn boolit I had not found before:

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA7.html

Not sure why I had so much trouble finding it but I did.

The boolit was intended for .45-70 or .45 Colt. Obviously in .45 Colt it would be similar to what I am looking for in .44 mag.

The load listed is 10 grs. of 2400 for 900 FPS in a 24" barrel. I am assuming that is for .45-70 though it is not stated.

The Gunn design is meant to have most of the lead inside the brass where in my application it would have to be seated out so a long throat would be needed. On that note, a .445 Supermag chamber might just provide enough room to use .44 mag brass with the boolit seated out into the throat. I will have to check dimensions to see if that would work but reaming a long throat in a standard .44 chamber shouldn't be a big chore.

Well, I have a starting point now anyway.

Also, I looked up Ron Smith and found him so thanks for that 44man.

Where I found mention of Ron Smith, there were also listings for other "recommended" Canadian gunsmiths capable of boring and rifling barrels. Not quite the selection you have in the States but better than I thought.

It is very difficult to ship barrels across the border now.

Well, there I go rambling on again. Probably more than anyone cares to read.

Thanks for the help and responses. I will see where this all leads and what I get done.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

44man: You're totally right on the balance point. I would submit this has already been achieved with 250-300gr boolits in the .44

The Marlins I was refferring to, and I neglected to mention this, all have 1/16 to 1/20 twist barrels, and were basically custom takedown guns and were built specifically to shoot heavy loads with big long boolits. They even have cartridge lifters that will swallow 1.750 long cartridges. They are very powerful liitle rifles, and are well into the high midrange of .45-70 ballsitics with those loadings.

I am a firm believer that bigger is not always better. And really what's the point? You can only shoot thru something,,, all the way thru.

Past that, you're just disturbing the air beyond the target.

I personally would not try a boolit much larger than 300 gr in my pistols or rifles. The pistols all are Rugers and have 1/20 twist barrels and I know they will stabilize 300 gr boolits at 1000 fps. And I have a few loaded and carry with me just in case I get treed by a buffalo at my local range here in Ojai CA.

However,,,my rifles which both still have 1/38 twist barrels won't. And they won't even stabilize 250gr LBT WFN's very well at the speeds I want to shoot them. BUT,,, they will shoot 250 gr SWC's great and 429244GC is my goto rifle boolit... and I may or maynot change the barrels. The payback is very limited, especially when you have a .45-70 rifle just sitting there waiting..

The .44 mag was optimized for 250 gr boolits, that is what it was designed around. Nobody including the factory has ever given me a reason why 1/38 is the goto twist rate for .44 cal rifles, especially when 1/20 is standard for .44 pistols and .45 cal rifles.

"We have always done it that way" is not an intelligent answer, and that's the only reason I have ever gotten from anyone supposedly ''in the know" on this subject. It just shows they don't know, and aren't willing to buck the system to make it right. I have known this was the wrong twist rate for 30 years, but have little influence at Marlin.

Ruger does it right? Their 44 rifles have 1/20 twist barrels. IN fact at the next SHOT Show I am going to be lobbying them really hard to start producing Marlin style rifles since Remington is not doing much a job of it, and I do have some small influence there. Really, really small actually, but I have 2 guys in engineering that at least listen to what I have to say.

But the main point of my post was ,,,, How much penetration you you actually want? Isn't the .44 already optimized to the highest degree with 250-300 gr boolits?

Or "how many of what, do you want to shoot thru at once"

Example: In the movie "The Wild Bunch", there was a scene where a Mexican Officer was lining up captured Mexican Peons 3-5 deep and shooting thru all of them at once with a .45LC Colt Pistol.

If this is what you're trying for, then it's already been done, no need for bigger boolits. :lol:

Pixie Dust not withstanding. :kidding:

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

It is not so much about penetration as ballistic efficiency. With a ballistic coefficient of .5 that boolit will carry a long way much better than a lighter boolit with lower ballistic coefficient.

Certainly this has already been done using black powder ~ big heavy bullets at moderate velocity used to slay big animals at long range and punching paper to 1000 yards. A 250 to 300 gr. boolit is not the choice for shooting long range in these guns either though.

Also, as another aspect of this, what would be wrong about duplicating the performance of a .44-60 or .44-77 Sharps using a smaller package? I see in Cartridges of the World several black powder cartridges of .44 caliber that launch boolits from about 265 grs. to 470 grs. at velocities from 1200 to 1480 FPS.

Ross Seyfried had a .500 Linebaugh made to shoot 600 gr. bullets and duplicated performance of a .50-150 Sharps rifle using a handgun cartridge at modern pressures.

Different strokes I guess.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Long bow: I get the idea of duplicating the .44-60/77 in a smaller package. Those Custom Marlin Rifles I was talking about above are basically doing that same thing. IE .45-70 power in a small carbine,,,Even though similar rifles already exist in .45-70.

The advantage of those .44 cal guns is the ability to drop the hammer with big stuff on the high end while still being able to plink on the bottom end. IE highly increased versitility.

The only thing is,,, for your project you will have to build a dedicated gun to shoot these in, as nothing we've talked about so far will work right with long .44 cal boolits. Now we are talking about rifling twists in the 1/12-15 range as the boolits get way longer in relation to width.

Sounds like a fun project anyway.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

Yes, the plan was to make a rifle to suit the long boolits. Since so much boolit would be hanging out of the brass, the chamber would need a long throat. My hope would be that if shorter lighter boolits just fit the throat then accuracy may be okay even with the jump to rifling.

I suppose that a benefit of using a full length larger cartridge like .444 Marlin is that a standard chamber and throat may work as the long body of the boolit could be inside the brass so cartridge OAL may be at stock and the lead would simply reduce cartridge volume to make reloading with light charges easier. Also then shorter lighter boolits wouldn't have a long jump to rifling.

However, it looks like a custom barrel with fast twist rifling will be required anyway and I would rather stick with the .44 mag brass,

Yes, versatility is also a benefit and a personal requirement.

So you think rifling twist of 1:12" might be required? That is pretty quick. Not sure how well light boolits would take to that but I suppose velocities are not that high anyway.

Overall, this whole idea would likely be easier in .45 cal. using .460 S&W or .454 Casull brass as I bet .45 cal barrels are available in pretty fast twist. However, the point was to stick with what I have.

I will have to check on barrels and barrel makers before doing much else.

I would also like to confirm required twist for the proposed boolit to make sure I get it right should this project proceed.

Thanks for the feedback.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I really don't know the exact twist required. I'm pretty sure there is a relationship between BC, velocity, and twist rate. I know that the bullet makers can tell you exactly what is needed for any given bullet. Obviously there is some correlation, and I bet if you researched it you could find the appropriate formula.

I'd start at Berger Bullets. Their head ballistician is a young guy and is sharp as a tack. He spent about 20 minutes explaining how maximum rotational velocity affects bullet stability to me last year at SHOT.

The basic jist is that you spin the bullet as fast as you can until it goes stupid and then back off. That was that balance thing 44man was talking about. The bullet will have a minimum amount of rotation to stabilize it and it will have a maximum amount of rotation that it can live thru. Everything in between is where you start, and by playing with velocity and acceleration the exact point you want to be at will be where the best accuracy is.

Kind of makes sense when you think about it a little.

Part of what they do is mathmatical and theoretical, and part of it is just plain trial and error. The mathmatical part is what gets you in the ballpark though, and then the trial and error part fine tunes it.

The whole idea is to find out where you need to be with the twist rate, based on the velocity you want and the rotation that the bullet needs to perform, and then have at it.

1/16 is common for the .45ACP and works for that round in the 1000 fps region, and .45 cal pistol barrels are in that twist rate. Obviously a faster twist will be needed for a longer boolit at the same speed.

Lastly you can solve the throat issue with a "Bore Rider" style boolit like the .30 cal 311299. Most of the boolit is up the bore and only the driving bands are in the case. The idea here is that the boolit has already had it's orientation to the bore established when the cartridge is chambered. Since the majority of the boolit is already in the bore and there is little or no clearance between the nose section of the boolit and the bore, the centerline of the barrel and boolit are "essentially" one in the same. Thus the boolit is "perfectly aligned and the only thng the driving bands do is impart rotation and forward movement to the boolit. The boolit does not jump into the bore and possibly get in there sideways like can happen with bullets that are not "in the bore" Thus greater accuracy,,,all things being in a perfect world.

It's much the same idea as a lead sinker threaded onto a fishing line. All the sinker can do is follow the line, because it's centerline and the lines centerline are forced to be the same.

The .444 Marlin might be a good place to start but I really think a TC Encore or other removable barrel type of gun would be a better type of gun to do this to.. Single shot and easy to convert and easy to work on.

Most of the BPCR guns I have seen were either 1/18 or 1/20 twist.

That .311299 30 cal boolit is 1.170 in length and weighs 200 gr. If you scaled that design up to .45 Cal it would be 1.755 long and probably weigh 600 grains!

Certainly qualifies as a BMF! [smilie=2:

Might need a serious muzzle brake for that one!

Randy

[JFE]

Longbow, for your trials you might want to consider a Marlin lever gun in 45LC. Those rifles have a 1 in 16" twist and fairly generous chambers. Some actually shoot better with 458 cal cast pills. I think this would provide a cheap platform to test your theory.... Factory rifle and if you dont cast for this calibre you can use commercially available 458 cast pills in 350-400 gr range.

[longbow]

Randy:

I just meant using .444 Marlin brass not a .444 Marlin lever action. The longer brass would allow most of the boolit to sit inside the cartridge as for the Gunn design and would probably be suitable in a standard chamber... and allow use of standard weight boolits without the long throat jump.

Since it appears the Gunn design was intended for .45-70, I am not sure why the nose is so short other than to possibly reduce effective powder space to make light loading easier (I am guessing here).

Yes, you are right, the nose bore rider would solve that long throat issue and give the same alignment result. Good catch! I was looking at the Gunn design but of course the nose could be reduced in diameter to be a bore rider.

I have been thinking about single shot or re-barreling a Lee Enfield action. I know they can be made to work with both .45-70 and .444 Marlin. I could use either of those but then my original goal was to use the .44 mag brass and dies. I am thinking that with all that boolit sticking out the .44 mag won't be much shorter overall than .303 Brit and feeding shouldn't be too big an issue.

JFE:

I wouldn't go lever action as mentioned above. Also, I think OAL would be a bit much for a standard .45LC Marlin with a really heavy boolit.

I realize that there is probably more selection in .45 for both boolit styles and barrels but again, the goal was to use .44 mag components I already have. That the gun will possibly be somewhat custom is a given.

You are right on use of .45 boolits though as the selection is way better than for .44. There are lots of styles and weights from light handgun boolits to heavyweights for .45-70, .458 Win, etc.

I will model the Gunn design in .44, convert to nose bore rider and relocate crimp groove to put the base about the same location as for properly seated H&G #503. Then I can check for weight, length and required twist to stabilize at low velocites.

Then I may make a mock up round and see how it feeds in a Lee Enfield action.

If it all works out then I have to find some toy money so I can put it together.

Longbow

[44man]

Beware using the Greenhill formula. That is what Marlin used for the 1 in 38". It does not work and those that say it does alter the figures fed into the formula.
Work with someone that knows barrels and twist rates.
The faster twist is why I like the BFR revolvers, so easy to work with with a whole variety of boolits. The 45-70 is a 1 in 14" twist and is the most accurate revolver I ever shot from 300 to 420 gr boolits so far with heavier to test yet. I ONCE shot a 2-1/2" group at 500 yards with my 317 gr boolit. My best at 50 yards was 5 shots in 5/16".
Magnum Research is the only gun maker using sensible twist rates. The new .44 shorty has a 1 in 16" twist and even the Desert Eagle is 1 in 18".

[longbow]

44man:

I will be very careful if I go ahead and especially if I have to have a custom rifling twist cut.

I know the Greenhill formula has its limitations and is just an approximation anyway. If I do go ahead with this, the whole point is long heavy ballistically efficient boolits so the twist has to be right for that, otherwise it will just be another .44 mag rifle.

I am just modeling the Gunn boolit in .45 right now then will scale down to .44 and rework to suit the .44 mag brass seating depth to see how much boolit sticks out. I think I will take Randy's advice and draw up a bore rider design too.

Longbow

[longbow]

Okay then, step 1 is complete ~ the original Gunn design has been scaled and modeled in 3D.

Diameter is 0.434"

Length is 1.137"

Weight is 406 grs. in wheelweight alloy

Next step is to sort out range/minimum velocity requirement for appropriate twist.

Longbow

[Willbird]

What would putting a hollow base ?? Or one filled with lighter material, such as delrin do for stability in a given rifling twist ?

[longbow]

I think it would help for a marginally stabilized boolt. It seems to me that there is mention of using plastic balls and other shapes to adjust CG on the Corbin swaging website for that purpose.

So far from what I am finding 1:16" should stabilize the proposed boolit very well but I want to be sure.

I may try some heavy boolits in my Marlin to see if single loading will allow the weights I want to test (around 400 gr. or maybe better). A nose bore rider design should chamber if I can fit it in past the bolt. I have a mould that may just do it. If I can single load for testing then I will check velocity and seating depth. I won't expect any accuracy with 1:38" twist though.

If it fits and I can get into low supersonic velocities with 400 gr. + boolit that would be a success. Then I would definitely look at getting a barrel of 1:16" or whatever twist is best and carry on with the project.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Youu know I was on one of the other threads and it had the link to the Saami website and it worked!

I looked at the Sammi Specs for the 44 mag and they say 1/20 twist. Too bad Marlin didn't pay attention to that spec instead of that Greenhill formula, which obviously is wrong!

Randy

[longbow]

You got that right! 1:20" would be way better than the 1:38" for sure.

It seems to me someone posted (or maybe I saw it in a gun magazine) that 1:26" was the ideal twist for "normal" weight .44 boolits. 1:20" would handle all of the 300 to 330 gr. boolits very well though, and maybe even heavier.

I can never understand why slow twists are used when a faster twist (within reason) will work for both heavy and light boolits.

Longbow

[crawfobj]

Are you guys still playing with this? I'm having my Ruger 77/44 upgraded to a 1 in 16" twist with an integrally suppressed barrel, and I'm looking for a heavy pill to try with it. I'm going to start with 300gr and go up from there.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[longbow]

Unfortunately, I don't have enough toy money right now but my thought was to use the Gunn designed boolit as a basis (see my post #23 for dimensions). I have modeled it in 3D and scaled to .44. It weighs 406 grs. in wheelweights so about perfect for what I wanted.

The only design issues are that the Gunn design has a crimp groove very far forward so not suitable for .44 mag brass but maybe .444 Marlin brass. My guess is that Gunn wanted the majority of the boolit in the brass to reduce volume for more efficient loading.

My thoughts are to either:

- use the design as is and seat to the second driving band but that would require a long throat
- redesign to make the external nose a bore rider so the loaded round would fit a normal .44 mag chamber

Either way this would only be suitable for single shot or converted bolt action if using .44 mag brass.

I think the main benefit of the Gunn design is that it has a much higher ballistic coefficient than most other .44 boolits will have.

If you want the scaled 406 gr. boolit drawing I have no objection to send it to you. Tom at Accurate moulds should be able to cut it. I have not redesigned to nose bore rider yet though. I am sure Tom could do that as well from the dimensioned Gunn drawing.

Not sure if the 4006 gr. length would feed through the Ruger 77/44 though.

I will be interested to hear about your results whatever you do.

Longbow

[oldcaster]

longbow
I use a 44Caliber LBTGC 300gn sized 0.432 on 14.7gn WW296 F155 1.53OAL (slightly compressed crimped over canalure) 1050fps in a TC contender 10" 1-20 twist. Always 4" at 200 sometimes at 250yds (depending on me ). At 300yds 7-8" and evidence of keyhole. I believe this is the limits on weight/cal./speed/twist rate.
I have proved this to myself with 800 rounds of this load in most all weather conditions.100yds 18" high, 200yds "0", 250yds 23" low, 300yds 58" low, I have been useing a Bushnell 2-6 long eye relief with a .01" shim under scope on rear mount to be able to "0" 200yds. A pain if you need to have your "0" at different distances .
I love this load/gun, shooting steel targets the gun moves out of the way and I see the impact and hear the ring a second later, a bit under 2 seconds from boom to ring at 250yds. If you have a spotter they can see the bullet falling into the target for about the last half of it's flight.

[oldcaster]

longbow
I use a 44Caliber LBTGC 300gn sized 0.432 on 14.7gn WW296 F155 1.53OAL (slightly compressed crimped over canalure) 1050fps in a TC contender 10" 1-20 twist. Always 4" at 200 sometimes at 250yds (depending on me ). At 300yds 7-8" and evidence of keyhole. I believe this is the limits on weight/cal./speed/twist rate.
I have proved this to myself with 800 rounds of this load in most all weather conditions.100yds 18" high, 200yds "0", 250yds 23" low, 300yds 58" low, I have been useing a Bushnell 2-6 long eye relief with a .01" shim under scope on rear mount to be able to "0" 200yds. A pain if you need to have your "0" at different distances .
I love this load/gun, shooting steel targets the gun moves out of the way and I see the impact and hear the ring a second later, a bit under 2 seconds from boom to ring at 250yds. If you have a spotter they can see the bullet falling into the target for about the last half of it's flight.

[longbow]

oldcaster:

Thanks for that. Good info.

I am not sure how fast a 400 gr. boolit can be pushed using .44 mag brass but in a rifle with 20"+ barrel it should do okay.

Like I said, I can't use a suppressor so subsonic isn't a requirement but the goal is similar ~ heavy boolit, moderate powder charge and velocities to 1200 or maybe 1400 FPS. It might actually be better to keep it subsonic to avoid going transonic on the way to the target.

Have you ever pushed yours into supersonic range? If so how was accuracy?

The info I have found so far indicates that 1:16" twist should be good for 400 gr. length but if you are finding long range instability with a 300 gr. in 1:20" maybe a tighter twist than 1:16" is required. Mind you trajectory will be pretty steep much past 200 yards anyway.

I should check twist used in some of the old .40 and .44 BP rifles as some of those were shot at fairly long range and used heavy boolits.

Good stuff. Thanks again.

Longbow

[mutley223rem]

Any update to this? Thinking to rifling my .410 to use heavy bullet subsonic speeds.

[dustydog]

I have a 44 mag integrally supresed encore that srt did for me that has a 1 in 10 twist, I load with a nosler 300 gr to 1050 with no problems with bullet stability.i opened up the hollow point a little and filled the cavity with 100% silicone it is very effitive on our whitetails.the actual barrel length inside the suppressor is 12 inches long.it is harder to keep it slow enough than it is to go super sonic.im pretty sure itll shoot thru at least two deer standing side by side.

[Digital Dan]

Heavy bullets work either side of Mach 1 with a 20" twist. I'm not giving consideration to length increase for a given weight due to large grease grooves, hollow points etc.

300 grain paper patch w/MV in the 1600 fps range:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg.html)

The PP bullets do nasty stuff to critters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg.html)


320 grain at subsonic velocity:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Brooks%20.430%20320gr_zpswlbrue5e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Brooks%20.430%20320gr_zpswlbrue5e.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Brooks320Huff_zps5ok8ru8x.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Brooks320Huff_zps5ok8ru8x.jpg.html)

[longbow]

I'm still "window shopping"/dreaming. Toy money is tight so no progress.

I would really like to try that subsonic Gunn designed boolit though. I think it would be ideal in a .45-70 or scaled down to fit .444 brass. With a slight change in design to be a nose bore rider with crimp groove moved back it should work in .44 mag. It comes out just over 400 grs. scaled to .44.

[Tackleberry41]

I had no trouble getting a 44mag to go subsonic. Not something I was going to do yet another barrel stub in for a faster twist. A 290gr NOE mold works fine out of a rossi single shot. Nothing special done except the powder charge to keep it going slow.

[PositiveCaster]

I have had a .50 Whisper for 25 years, it's in a 14" Contender barrel. I used boolits, but most loads were 647 to 750 grain jacketed launched between 950 and 1050 fps. Quite accurate in the 10" twist barrel. Back in 1996 I shot a 46" bull moose with a 515-grain WCWW RCBS bullet at ~1150 fps. That bullet may still be going.....


.

[M.A.D]

I run these through a Number 3 in 45-70 with a 12 inch 1-10 twist barrel.. 660 grain bore rider... 188140