The 30-06

[Jason30-30]

Today i was watching the hunting channel. He was trying to bag a Grizzly with a Savage 110 in 30-06. Not only Did he spot one he took ONE SHOT At 620 YARDS!!! The camera was Way zoomed in but the grizzly dropped instantley and started To roll. I was REALLY impressed With the 30-06.

[x101airborne]

Well, this is my opinion and it smells like what it is worth.....
The 30-06 has taken many griz in the past, but if I spent the money on a hunt, the venerable '06 would probably not be my first choice. And I kinda have a problem with someone who "hunts" at 625 yards. An incredible shot, no doubt, but... not sure if I would call it sporting. And if you hit a bull elephant in the spine, it too will go down. Call it lucky, good, whatever. I wonder if that was the first griz he tried for to make that segment.

[Dan Cash]

I was planing a Kodiak hunt but old age body caught up with me. One of my three -06s would have been my take with gun. Would not be doing any 600 yard grand standing though. Sportiing issues aside, there are too many slip ups possible at that range.

[pistolman44]

I personally wouldn't go hunting for something that could make you their dinner with a 30-06. I would choose a magnum caliber over a .30. But now at my old age I don't hunt anything that would bite back.

[scattershot]

620 yards? Hell, I dunno if I could SEE a bear at that distance. heckofa shot if it's true.

[geargnasher]

Geez. Now every wet-behind-the-ears numbnut with a poorly sighted-in deer rifle and no concept of trajectory is going to think that's a practical shot. Gotta love TV.

Gear

[rmcc]

I may be old school here when I put in my 2 cents worth but here goes:

Hunting is, to me, meeting an animal on its own ground and getting as close as possible to make as quick a killing shot as possible. At 620 yds, there aren't too many calibers out there, that are hunting cartridges, that would have the energy left to cleanly dispatch a bear. There are so many variables at that range, I would not take the shot even if I thought I could make it. Rifles in 30/06 have been killing bears for years. I would probably pick a 338 or 375 but with 220 gr bullets the old 06 would work in the right hands. I don't mean to step on any "long" range shooter's toes but I just don't think it is ethical to try such a stunt!! The animals we hunt deserve more respect than that.

Rich

[MT Gianni]

Time to check the battery on the rangefinder.

[Kraschenbirn]

Haven't seen it, but this sounds like a bit of "Reality Television" to me. While I've never gone after bear, I've taken my share of game and varmits...a fair percentage with an '06...and I don't believe I'd even consider a 600+ yard shot on anything other than paper or steel. Even with a highly efficient bullet launched at 2600 fps you'd be looking at something like a 6-foot bullet drop with terminal velocity down around 1000-1100 fps yielding, maybe, 1000 ft/lbs energy. (thumbnail #s...my hard-copy ballistic charts only go out to 500 yards) Kinda "marginal" IMO.

Bill

[mroliver77]

I love my 06's! Pretty much every game animal on earth has been taken with it. Eskimos also killed polar bear with a .22 Hornet!

Having a serious case of Grizzly fear I believe I would opt for more powerful medicine.

I do believe a 200gr or heavier bullet of a tough design and a max load would do the trick just fine. I really want to cause something that dangerous massive trauma.

I would not shoot at any game animal at 600 yards unless I was desperate for meat. If I cannot keep all my rounds well within a paper plate OFFHAND I believe I have no business taking that shot. That pretty much keeps me under 150 yards. With plenty of practice I could stretch that out some.

Keep in mind I have no dangerous or large game experience so this is just the opinion of a deer/pig varmint hunter.
J

[waksupi]

If he took a shot at a bear at that range he is a slob shooter, I won't dignify him by calling him a hunter, and a coward most likely, afraid to get close enough for an honest shot at the game. If I see someone pull something like that around here, he better have another way home, because I will most likely have burned his truck before he gets back to it.
gotta stop now, board rules will not allow me to tell you what I really think about such lowlife worthless @#$&%)*%_%.

[Doble Troble]

If he took that shot at 620 yds, I hope there was someone else ready within 200 yds armed with something more appropriate.

And even if there was, it should have been the other guy taking the shot.

I agree, reporting this type of irresponsible behavior can produce no good, even if the guy had practiced at just that range for hundreds of rounds...just the fact that it may make it seem that setting everything up just so isn't necessary may make others more willing to take risky shots at game.

[kelbro]

I shoot a lot at 600 and 1K yards. Frequently. Guys, rifles are more than capable at that range of a clean, humane kill. My 308 Savage shoots consistent 5-6" groups at 600. That said, I would not shoot at a game animal at that distance. It's also about as close as I want to be to a grizzly :)

[randyrat]

Did they show where he hit the Bear? I would think it had to be a spinal shot.

[ilcop22]

There are a number of hunting shows on the Outdoor channel that follow "professional" hunters who routinely take 500+ yard shots, and leave only with the head of their quarry. Hunting for any purpose other than food isn't hunting... It's slaughter. Taking shots at those ranges isn't hunting, either - It's using animals for target practice. If there's no fair chase; if you only want another trophy, you're not a hunter. Period.

*Steps off soapbox

[Lizard333]

There are a number of hunting shows on the Outdoor channel that follow "professional" hunters who routinely take 500+ yard shots, and leave only with the head of their quarry. Hunting for any purpose other than food isn't hunting... It's slaughter. Taking shots at those ranges isn't hunting, either - It's using animals for target practice. If there's no fair chase; if you only want another trophy, you're not a hunter. Period.

*Steps off soapbox

Couldn't agree more. If you are not taking the meat, you are POACHING. I don't believe that God put these animals on the earth to be shot so we could take there heads or antlers.

If you are not going to be eating it, DON'T SHOOT IT!

[stubert]

One of the guys that works for me takes hail mary shots at deer every year, He hunts with a pump shotgun with a turkey scope on it( the one with the circle instead of cross hairs) This year he was lucky enough to get a 4 pointer at 180 yards or so, I will NOT hunt with him, He is so irresponsible that after he shot it, he let it hang for 7 days with the hide on at 50-60 degrees, when he skinned it, the meat had a gray color to it, He says he will eat it anyway.

[pdawg_shooter]

600yds is NOT hunting, it is just shooting. I take a few "long range shots" at game, meaning 2225/250yds. If I cant get closer I dont shoot. I do shoot prairie dogs at 600yds, but with them it is either a miss or a kill.

[felix]

If I were the Honcho for a bunch of hunters at a noted far-out BR range, and our food had been destroyed by bears or wolves or something, I MIGHT then consider the shot when an editable something walked into the area. I would use the most experienced BR guy having available some BR gun at least half-way sighted for the computed range. Even with a likely weak hit, I would assign the trackers/hunters in the crowd to finish the job. This would not be a fun scenario for me, but then you won't see me that far out in the bush/ice/snow anyway. ... felix

[jlchucker]

Couldn't agree more. If you are not taking the meat, you are POACHING. I don't believe that God put these animals on the earth to be shot so we could take there heads or antlers.

If you are not going to be eating it, DON'T SHOOT IT!

That's what Dad and Gramp used to say. I agree.

[kelbro]

My dad made me eat everything that I killed except coyotes. Possum, not so good. Only ever shot one. Armadillo, worse. Again, only shot one. Coon, not bad. Shot a few of those.

Never admitted to shooting a skunk.

All in all, it shaped me into the 'I don't kill it if I can't eat it' kind of guy that I am now.

[Reload3006]

I would not be one bit hesitant to use any one of my 06s on any animal on the north American continent. But I will be the first to admit my 06 may be capable of making 600+ yd shot I am not.

[onesonek]

I shoot a lot at 600 and 1K yards. Frequently. Guys, rifles are more than capable at that range of a clean, humane kill. My 308 Savage shoots consistent 5-6" groups at 600. That said, I would not shoot at a game animal at that distance. It's also about as close as I want to be to a grizzly :)

Just because one can, don't mean they should. What happened? Wasn't that many years ago 300 yds was considered a very long shot. Then too, paper don't breathe or move. At 600 yds there is enough time, that if the animal takes a step, impact outside the kill zone is highly possible.
And from what I seen at the range, the avg I see there, 200 yds is still a long shot.
Also, 99.999 % of the guides I know in AK. won't let anyone shoot over 200 yds. on Bears.
Too me, it's unfortunate the the industry as a whole, seems to be promoting long range shooting, rather than hunting skills in getting close as possible.

[Recluse]

Random thoughts--

• A good gun is always more capable than a good shooter.

• 600 yards in proximity to a grizzly bear is too damned close for me. I would've preferred to take the shot at around 1500 yards--with a .50 cal. (I do not like bears in any shape, form or fashion.)

• Someone making a 600+ yard shot on the TV has too much of an ego or too much of a bloodlust. Neither is good under any circumstances, but especially so in the outdoors with a gun.

• I've never understood bear hunting. I went one time and just didn't get it. The meat is awful and I'm not one for bearskin rugs, and if I had the thing stuffed and mounted and put it in the house, my wife would have ME stuffed and mounted next to it.

• I understand bear self-defense. I've had to shoot three bears in my lifetime and didn't enjoy it. I (and we) threw things, yelled, fired a shot at their feet, etc etc. Bear(s) kept on a coming and died before they got to me/us. People tried telling me I was in "their" (the bears') element and I always correct them--No, I tell them, the bears are in MY element.

I have dominion over the earth and the animals. I walk upright (except on bad back days) and I carry a gun and I possess the superior intelligence. I go where I want. If I screw up in an area in which the bear is more comfortable and experienced than myself, then kudos to the bear. However, if I give the bear every opportunity to pay heed to its well-keeled senses and instincts and get the hell away from me, and it doesn't, then Darwin's Law comes into play.

• Why do we handload our rifle rounds with the incredible and special care we do if we deem a shot to be too far? 600 yards is nothing for a 30-06 rifle of known ability, a round of known ability, and a shooter of known ability. Why spend all this time at the range practicing, zeroing in, studying ballistics tables and charts, and all the hours at the reloading bench creating handloads whose accuracy is beyond parallel if we're to never use them for anything other than a piece of paper or steel?

• Me personally? I never would've taken the shot on that bear at 620 yards. That's not hunting. That's simply killing. And there is a difference.

:coffee:

[onesonek]

"• Me personally? I never would've taken the shot on that bear at 620 yards. That's not hunting. That's simply killing. And there is a difference."

And I as much as I play with the diggers at 500-1000 yds. .
That statement pretty much sums it up.

[Char-Gar]

"Back in the day", I shot allot of matches at 600 yards and even 1,000 yards with the 30-06 round. I have no doubt a fellow could it a big Griz at that range with a 30-06. IF he knew his way around the rifle, the round and knew how to dope the wind.

That said, it was a stupid stunt. Shooting a Griz at 600 yards with anything less than a 50 BMG is asking for a wounded bear in brush. That could get people killed!

I do not have a violent nature, so I would not burn his truck or do him physical damage. But, I would have some choice words to say to his face.

[Ickisrulz]

Too me, it's unfortunate the the industry as a whole, seems to be promoting long range shooting, rather than hunting skills in getting close as possible.

Because they want to sell equipment. You don't need a 12-16x scope or 338 Lapua Mag for 100-200 yard shots.

[swheeler]

Today i was watching the hunting channel. He was trying to bag a Grizzly with a Savage 110 in 30-06. Not only Did he spot one he took ONE SHOT At 620 YARDS!!! The camera was Way zoomed in but the grizzly dropped instantley and started To roll. I was REALLY impressed With the 30-06.

I think what you were watching was called the HAIL MARY SHOOTING CHANNEL! There are a few, quite a few of those "hunters" out there though!:sad: to say

[MT Gianni]

Couldn't agree more. If you are not taking the meat, you are POACHING. I don't believe that God put these animals on the earth to be shot so we could take there heads or antlers.

If you are not going to be eating it, DON'T SHOOT IT!

I will disagree as I shoot some varmits I would not eat under normal circumstances. I have no problems killing fox, coyote, jackrabbit, ground squirrels, mice, rats, cockroaches, weevil, house spiders, stinkbugs, headlice, bedbugs, mosquitos and a number of other things. I do not believe the Creator put them here to eat. I have not found a game animal I will not eat.

[Larry Gibson]

I will disagree as I shoot some varmits I would not eat under normal circumstances. I have no problems killing fox, coyote, jackrabbit, ground squirrels, mice, rats, cockroaches, weevil, house spiders, stinkbugs, headlice, bedbugs, mosquitos and a number of other things. I do not believe the Creator put them here to eat. I have not found a game animal I will not eat.

+1. Lots of varmints are dispatched every year by shooting, swatting, poisoning and trapping that we do not eat.......at least I don't eat them;)

Larry Gibson

[pdawg_shooter]

• Why do we handload our rifle rounds with the incredible and special care we do if we deem a shot to be too far? 600 yards is nothing for a 30-06 rifle of known ability, a round of known ability, and a shooter of known ability. Why spend all this time at the range practicing, zeroing in, studying ballistics tables and charts, and all the hours at the reloading bench creating handloads whose accuracy is beyond parallel if we're to never use them for anything other than a piece of paper or steel?

Yes, I can hit a bear a 600yds. and NO I would take a shot at one from 600yds, or 400yds, or even 300yds. I am not out there to see how stupid a shot I can make. I am out there HUNTING! That means getting close enough so a killing shot is ALMOST a sure thing.

[Recluse]

There are a number of hunting shows on the Outdoor channel that follow "professional" hunters who routinely take 500+ yard shots, and leave only with the head of their quarry. Hunting for any purpose other than food isn't hunting... It's slaughter. Taking shots at those ranges isn't hunting, either - It's using animals for target practice. If there's no fair chase; if you only want another trophy, you're not a hunter. Period.

*Steps off soapbox

I usually have one of the outdoor or sportsman channels on the TV when I'm in my reloading shop, and I haven't seen but one show this entire year that had a shot longer than 300 meters--and it was a show and episode specifically set up for a long-range shot on an elusive prey animal under difficult circumstances.

They also went up the mountains and retrieved the fallen animal--took three of them almost all day to get it back down, but they brought the whole thing down.

I'll disagree with the "hunting for any purpose other than food isn't hunting" statement. Tell that to ranchers and farmers when roving packs of feral dogs start making off with newborns, or when a suspected rabid animal is on the prowl, or when the coyotes' numbers get too large, or when one of your best horses breaks a leg in a damned prairie dog hole because the population has exploded.

There are also wild animal attacks on humans in which the animal needs to be hunted down and destroyed.

If I'm tracking a rogue grizzly that there is zero doubt is responsible for the death of one or more humans, and I have a shot I can make at 600 meters, and I know I can make it and that's the closest I'm ever going to get to the bear, I'm going to take the shot.

And yeah, I'm hunting--but I'm hunting to kill. It's not for sport, it's not for fun, it's not for food. It's to exterminate a threat to my well-being or someone else's.

I have no problems with that.

I know all about the slobs who shoot, kill, take the heads and/or racks, then leave the carcass to rot. I saw it two seasons in a row in the mountains of Utah during my military days. It sickened me and I had a hard time hunting for a few years afterwards.

:coffee:

[nanuk]

I love my 06's! Pretty much every game animal on earth has been taken with it. Eskimos also killed polar bear with a .22 Hornet!




and they have to shoot them 20-30 times and run them to death with snowmobiles...

Inuit are not Ethical hunters.

Inuit hunt for FOOD and get it any way they can

[Reload3006]

• Why do we handload our rifle rounds with the incredible and special care we do if we deem a shot to be too far? 600 yards is nothing for a 30-06 rifle of known ability, a round of known ability, and a shooter of known ability. Why spend all this time at the range practicing, zeroing in, studying ballistics tables and charts, and all the hours at the reloading bench creating handloads whose accuracy is beyond parallel if we're to never use them for anything other than a piece of paper or steel?

Yes, I can hit a bear a 600yds. and NO I would take a shot at one from 600yds, or 400yds, or even 300yds. I am not out there to see how stupid a shot I can make. I am out there HUNTING! That means getting close enough so a killing shot is ALMOST a sure thing.

Well said.

[nanuk]

• I've never understood bear hunting. I went one time and just didn't get it. The meat is awful and I'm not one for bearskin rugs, and if I had the thing stuffed and mounted and put it in the house, my wife would have ME stuffed and mounted next to it.


I had a neighbour who LOVED bear meat (black bear)

he said the hip roasts are far better than pork, and the sausage is incredible

[nanuk]

a 30-06 at 600yds is the same as a 3030 at 100yds

would you use a 30-30 for those bears at 100yds?

[bearcove]

The 600 yd part...

The 30-06 will do the job at normal ranges. Probably not the best to stop a ticked off charging Brownie though.

[josper]

the 30-06 was a favorite of the late Jack O'connor ,shooting editor for Outdoor Life mag. With it he took his share of bears and just about every four footed criter on the North American Cont. I don't think the average shooter is capable of a 600yd. shot However I do believe there are exceptional riflemen that can. A rifleman has to know his limitations and stay within his skill level. The legendary Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock won the 1000 yd match at camp perry I believe in 1965.Later in Viet Nam he took out a N Viet.GEN.at 800yds. My outlook on the 600yd shot at a bear is weather or not the shooters skill level is up to the standard to make the shot with a certainty of making a quick kill.

[Nrut]

Today i was watching the hunting channel. He was trying to bag a Grizzly with a Savage 110 in 30-06. Not only Did he spot one he took ONE SHOT At 620 YARDS!!! The camera was Way zoomed in but the grizzly dropped instantley and started To roll. I was REALLY impressed With the 30-06.
Jason30-30,
What bullet did he use to make that shot on the grizzly?

[Centaur 1]

a 30-06 at 600yds is the same as a 3030 at 100yds

would you use a 30-30 for those bears at 100yds?

Even less, I just did a side by side comparison at the remington web site and a 170 grain 30-30 has 1355 ftlbs of energy at 100 yards, and a 180 grain psp 30-06 has 1362 ftlbs of energy at 400 yards. I love hunting with my 30-30 and I often hear people talking about how the 30-30 is an inadequate caliber, but they'll have no problem shooting the 30-06 at 400 yards. I have no problem with someone who practices shooting at long range, using the skills he learned to hunt. I also know that most people who buy the latest and greatest long range calibers, just assume they can make these shots. I also think that it would be a safe bet to say the 30-30 bullet will have a more reliable expansion at 100 yards than the 30-06 does at 400.

[waksupi]

the 30-06 was a favorite of the late Jack O'connor ,shooting editor for Outdoor Life mag. With it he took his share of bears and just about every four footed criter on the North American Cont. I don't think the average shooter is capable of a 600yd. shot However I do believe there are exceptional riflemen that can. A rifleman has to know his limitations and stay within his skill level. The legendary Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock won the 1000 yd match at camp perry I believe in 1965.Later in Viet Nam he took out a N Viet.GEN.at 800yds. My outlook on the 600yd shot at a bear is weather or not the shooters skill level is up to the standard to make the shot with a certainty of making a quick kill.

Wasn't O'Conner the .270 man?

[ilcop22]

I usually have one of the outdoor or sportsman channels on the TV when I'm in my reloading shop, and I haven't seen but one show this entire year that had a shot longer than 300 meters--and it was a show and episode specifically set up for a long-range shot on an elusive prey animal under difficult circumstances.

They also went up the mountains and retrieved the fallen animal--took three of them almost all day to get it back down, but they brought the whole thing down.

I'll disagree with the "hunting for any purpose other than food isn't hunting" statement. Tell that to ranchers and farmers when roving packs of feral dogs start making off with newborns, or when a suspected rabid animal is on the prowl, or when the coyotes' numbers get too large, or when one of your best horses breaks a leg in a damned prairie dog hole because the population has exploded.

There are also wild animal attacks on humans in which the animal needs to be hunted down and destroyed.

If I'm tracking a rogue grizzly that there is zero doubt is responsible for the death of one or more humans, and I have a shot I can make at 600 meters, and I know I can make it and that's the closest I'm ever going to get to the bear, I'm going to take the shot.

And yeah, I'm hunting--but I'm hunting to kill. It's not for sport, it's not for fun, it's not for food. It's to exterminate a threat to my well-being or someone else's.

I have no problems with that.

I know all about the slobs who shoot, kill, take the heads and/or racks, then leave the carcass to rot. I saw it two seasons in a row in the mountains of Utah during my military days. It sickened me and I had a hard time hunting for a few years afterwards.

:coffee:

It seems everytime I turn on the Outdoor channel, they're hunting in Argentina or some place, shooting 500+ yard animals for sport. Removing pests and varmint isn't what I'm talking about, and I think common sense should tell you that. Everybody knows dangerous animals, those that are disruptive to an ecosystem, farms, etc, are fair game because you're defending. The place I hunt is overrun with those kinda creatures, so you bet if we see one the landowner wants us to kill it. But even then, we don't just throw it away. If we don't eat it, his dogs will. If you're killing an animal because you want a mount, then you're not hunting - You're just killing.

[Char-Gar]

Jack O'Connor was a big fan of the 270 Winchester and boosted it frequently is his writings. He also hunted with and like the 30-06.

IIRC 270 sales dropped after O'Connor passed away.

[swheeler]

Jack was a fan of the 7x57 also, Elanore was too, smart couple.

[josper]

All the above is correct,Jack was into the .270win but also liked and praised the 06 as well. There was an Outdoor Life shooting book and there was a chapter on "The .270 win." and "The 30-06springfield. At the end of the chapter he said somthing like "I own a number of .270s and have an equal number of 30-06 and thats where I stand." swheeler jogged my memory and I do recall that he liked the 7x57. Jack was quite the hunter and I really missed reading his articles in Outdoor life.

[leadman]

I've seen shooters that had no problem grouping shots at 600 yards from a speciality pistol ( single shot). The shots were too close together to tell where they landed on the steel plates. This one individual also regularly shoots past 1000 yards with incredible accuracy. He also shoots more than anyone I know and has some very incredible equipment to go along with the custom pistol.
I shot an antelope in the fall of 2010 with a 6.5TCU Contender pistol at 255 yards. This was witnessed and the shot went thru both front shoulders and killed the antelope almost immediately. Had a bipod, no wind, ballistic plex reticle, companion ranged the animal.
I have shot many pop cans placed on end at 200 yards with this pistol.
I have taken elk to 472 yards and as close as 20 yards. It is not a difficult shot with the right equipment and rest. That said an elk normally does not bite back, a grizzly can.
What if that bear was only wounded and took out another hunter?

I have no doubt there are many that could make the shot, including me. With my Encore with 28" 7mm Rem Mag barrel I don't have to consider range until way past 200 yards, then I range the distance and use the applicable dot on the scope reticle. Wind is another factor and can really give you grief as it does not always blow in the same direction in the field at different ranges.

Many of the old standards and ethics of the past are changing, just like things did when I was young. I remember when I started to grow my hair like the Beatles, my Dad had a fit.
I'm not agreeing with the shot on a dangerous animal at that distance, but we do not know all of the conditions present. There may not have been other humans in the area to consider. Did he have a back-up shooter close by?

[pdawg_shooter]

I stand by my post, 600yds is not hunting, just shooting!

[onesonek]

I stand by my post, 600yds is not hunting, just shooting!

I would agree. Save that for the vermin and pest.


I've seen shooters that had no problem grouping shots at 600 yards from a speciality pistol ( single shot). The shots were too close together to tell where they landed on the steel plates. This one individual also regularly shoots past 1000 yards with incredible accuracy. He also shoots more than anyone I know and has some very incredible equipment to go along with the custom pistol.

The problem is, animal can move whre targets do not. And while laser range finders are helpfull, take other equipment such as handheld puters with ballistic programs to aid in long range shooting, wind conditions can change much faster than the time to use such.

I shot an antelope in the fall of 2010 with a 6.5TCU Contender pistol at 255 yards. This was witnessed and the shot went thru both front shoulders and killed the antelope almost immediately. Had a bipod, no wind, ballistic plex reticle, companion ranged the animal.
I have shot many pop cans placed on end at 200 yards with this pistol.
I have taken elk to 472 yards and as close as 20 yards. It is not a difficult shot with the right equipment and rest. That said an elk normally does not bite back, a grizzly can.
What if that bear was only wounded and took out another hunter?

I have no doubt there are many that could make the shot, including me. With my Encore with 28" 7mm Rem Mag barrel I don't have to consider range until way past 200 yards, then I range the distance and use the applicable dot on the scope reticle. Wind is another factor and can really give you grief as it does not always blow in the same direction in the field at different ranges.

Wind is the main factor, and takes a lot of shooting in it, and time learning to read what it is doing at various ranges to the intended target. Most don't have that skill mastered. ANd here again there is the chance of the animal moving in the bullet flight time of 1/2 to 1 second taking it out of the kill zone

Many of the old standards and ethics of the past are changing, just like things did when I was young. I remember when I started to grow my hair like the Beatles, my Dad had a fit.

I disagree with fads being the same as standards or ethics. I look at it as, does one value their hunting skills, or their shooting skills. So it is values to me, not ethics. Ethics or lack of, is taking a shot one knows full well there less than 98-99% chance not hitting within 2" of your aim point,, imo. But I also believe SH's, so misses do occur for everyone, even at shorter ranges. One just can't account for "murphy's law" 100% of the time, but it's worse as range increases. Standards in the field should be set by ones own skills. But I'll venture a bet, the avg guy that goes out and buys a long range rig for hunting, don't practice enough to utilize it or be proficient with it. Some do, most don't from I see at the range. In the recent past, it seems to me there has been the promotion of long range hunting, I'm not sure why. Other than time being the issue for limiting hunting times for traveling hunters, I see the bulk of it being lazy. Too lazy to work in closer for the shot, and or not willing to pass on a poor set of circumstances. Or they are just looking for bragging rights. Hence, it becomes more important to fill the tag or kill the animal, than it does to hunt it. Pitting ones hunting skills against the animals instincts, what it was and still is for some. It wasn't that long ago, when in a poll of guides, outfitter and well known hunters, the avg range for taking biggame was less than a 150 yds. What changed? Yes technology has added some equipment, but that hasn't lessened the things that can go wrong. Whole point is, why take the chance of wounding when unecessarily so ?

I'm not agreeing with the shot on a dangerous animal at that distance, but we do not know all of the conditions present. There may not have been other humans in the area to consider. Did he have a back-up shooter close by?

Not sure what you are getting at here. But regardless, I never rely on a back up. And that is also why guides (backup)I know, won't allow shots over 200 yds on bears. The one's I know insist on shooting them twice, and know full well even a good marksman will have difficulty doing that beyond 200, as by the 2nd, there is most often a moving target.
They don't want to go in the brush looking,,,would you?
I just can't see 600yds on game animals being anything other than a stunt,,,,, unless it's a matter of survival, and even then I would do what I could to close the distance.
I'll take PBR on 1/2 or less (usually less) than the animals kill zone, and then if conditions are darn near perfect, maybe add a 100 yds., as max. Even though I consider myself proficient out past twice and even 3x that distance. But then each to their own, even if we disagree I guess.

[Larry Gibson]

Couple questions for thought on the topic;

IF you can put the bullet in the heart lung area at long range with an '06 (or any other suitable cartridge) is that really any different that shooting from a tree stand or blind?

Is shooting from a tree stand or blind hunting then?

How is a poor shot made at 100 yards offhand different than a poor shot made at long range?

Is a good shot made at 100 yards or less in thick stuff when you first see the deer and can't get closer good hunting?

Is a good shot made at 300 - 600 yards in wide open country when you first see the deer and can't get closer after you've "hunted" for several miles over rough canyons and hills not good hunting?

I'm not arguing this one way or the other, just aking the questions is all.

Larry Gibson

[Reload3006]

I personally have no problem with a person making a shot at any range if he and his equipment is capable. I however would hazard a guess there probably is fewer than 500 people in the USA who truly is capable of that kind of a shot. Is the 30-06 you better believe it is. but as I said earlier I am not. If I were capable of consistently making that kind of a shot I would not hesitate to drop the hammer on a bear but there are a lot of variables there that I am not good enough to over come. Some men are most aren't even if they think they are.

[gunguychuck]

I don't watch that **** anymore. TV has turned hunting into show business, and I can't stand to watch them shoot baited deer that have been raised like cattle.

[Two Eyed Jack]

I bought an elk rifle when I moved to Idaho in the late '80s. After careful consideration I ended up with a .338 win mag. I figured if I ever got the chance to go to Alaska to hunt griz, the .338 would be a far better choice than a 30-06 or a 7MM mag. Using 250 gr. Nosler Partitions, I get around 4,000 ft. lb. of muzzle energy, significantly higher than the 30-06. Every elk I have shot with this combination has died pretty much on the spot. The only bullets I have ever recovered were from a bison, and they were the prettiest little mushrooms you ever saw after going though 3 feet of bison.

The funny thing is that I have been to Alaska fishing and almost had to shoot a large griz. The weapon? A Remington 870 12 ga. with an extended magazine, loaded with 3" mag slugs. I would not have traded that for any .338

[mroliver77]

and they have to shoot them 20-30 times and run them to death with snowmobiles...

Inuit are not Ethical hunters.

Inuit hunt for FOOD and get it any way they can

I was not advocating it or saying it was ethical. Many elephant have been killed with an 06 and 7x57. Would not be my choice. I met a fellow that hunts bear with a spear. :veryconfu My point was just because it can be done does not make it right or preferable. If all I had was a .22 short but was needing food I would use it on a deer with no compunction. I would use a snare, a deadfall or whatever means necessary to kill for food if needed and be OK with it. Having said that I have never been anywhere close to that situation. The Inuit could probably arm himself better too but if what I read is correct, frugality is their motive for using the small cartridge.

Ethics are not clear by any means. As some state they eat everything they kill and consider anything less unethical.

I met a bow hunter that believed his was a "spiritual" hunt while me using a gun was vile and unfair. He was using a modern compound fancy expensive bow with a release, overdraw and graphite arrows. Scent blocker, hundreds of dollars of camo, climbing stand, deer lure etc etc.

I watch my area, study the animals habits and place myself downwind of where I believe he will travel. I have stalked(still hunt) deer (even older bucks) into their bedding area and rousted them out from under a tree top. I kill with a gun. I did lose one a couple years back. Good neck shot with .357. The son of a gun barely bled! I searched long and hard but never found him. I felt terrible! My hunt was done. I had killed a deer. My friends found him days later while rabbit hunting. sigh Had it been an issue of NEEDING the meat I would have been right back out there!

I kill every woodchuck, red squirrel and raccoon I am able! Feral cats in the woods are history. Rabbits near my garden are whacked mercilessly. I have killed lots of dogs in my life. Most were in my livestock. When I was younger there were packs of feral dogs needing destroyed. I obliged.

I try to make clean kills. I don't brag or film it. I don't care if others consider it unethical. I am OK with it.

Like others I consider 600 yards too far as too many things can foul up the shot.
J

[WilNsc]

I generally don't beleive anything I see on 'reality' TV shows. THey like to fake things for drama to up the raitings.

Even if it was a 600+ yard shot it's just a bad idea to give people thinking they should be taking those types of shots while hunting.

[onesonek]

Couple questions for thought on the topic;

All very good quetions Larry! Right or wrong, this is how I look at them

IF you can put the bullet in the heart lung area at long range with an '06 (or any other suitable cartridge) is that really any different that shooting from a tree stand or blind?

Not if your 99% sure of your shot being within a couple incnhes of aim point.

Is shooting from a tree stand or blind hunting then?

Certain area's where cover or timber is so thick that requires this method, because Still Hunting is nearly impossible, I believe still considered hunting. Placing a stand or blind near a feeder or food plot, I look at as more like harvesting myself.

How is a poor shot made at 100 yards offhand different than a poor shot made at long range?

It ain't different. A poor shot is a poor shot. Most often poor shots are in conditions or situations ill-advised in the first place. However even the best of marksman can get bit by "buck fever" causing a miss, it happens to the best. Or Murphy just shows up at the wrong time. But shooting in either case can present problems an unseen twig in the path to a sudden gust of wind, to the animal moving at the wrong time. It is just best to do as much as possible to eliminate as much risk as possible. As Louis L'Amour once scribed, " there isn't anything secure this side of the grave",,,, but why add to the risk.

Is a good shot made at 100 yards or less in thick stuff when you first see the deer and can't get closer good hunting?

Seeing a 100 yds. isnt very "thick stuff", but I would do due diligence to make sure nothing is in the bullet path, and the animal was still at the time of the shot. I don't often believe in "can't" however. Although, a 100 yds is well within my usual 5" PBR sighting, so I wouldn't necessarily worry about getting closer, unless there was obstruction's or possibiliy of such.

Is a good shot made at 300 - 600 yards in wide open country when you first see the deer and can't get closer after you've "hunted" for several miles over rough canyons and hills not good hunting?

Mother Nature can be pretty gnarly with increased range. As range increases, odds decrease as I see it. We have absolutely no control of the situation once the bullet/boolit leaves the muzzle. Again, I can see very limited situations where "can't" get closer happening. But then when that does happen, sometimes it's better to pass on the shot and look forward to another oppritunity, rather than risk a wounded animal. I think we owe them that much.I as well as my son on several occassions crawled up on whitetails bedded in a open pasture, with barely enough cover to hide a mouse. It takes work and it takes time, but if done correctly, it can be done quite regularly. This is where one uses the animals instincts against themselves. Not always are conditions such to allow for that, but this is where I pass. There will be future oppritunities. However, if it don't work out as such for the season, that too is part of hunting.

I'm not arguing this one way or the other, just aking the questions is all.
Larry Gibson

I know, and it really is a personal thing if not each to their own. While I know I can connect 80% of the time with cold shots (all but the windiest conditions) on PDs at 600 yds. That is certainly within MOA of deer, elk or whatever big game with a slight miss on the PD's. Just the odds of it getting out of the kill zone due to an unexpect gust or lull in the wind, or the animal moving at the wrong time, are much greater at that range. That happening and a wounded big game animal possibly getting lost as a result, is something I just don't want to sleep with.

[Jailer]

While I agree a 620 yard shot is a long one to take, it's not out of the realm of possibility. For me, yes, for someone else not at all.

I have a buddy that took a whitetail last year at 480 yards with a 308. One shot kill and it wasn't a lucky shot. BUT, this guy is an amazing shot, running his hand loads through a gun he knows like the back of his hand. It's amazing the shots he can make with this thing.

I have a hard time taking a shot over 250 yards just because I don't trust my own eyesight and skill beyond that range. The right person with the right gun could easily make that 620 yard shot and make a humane kill.

That's just my .02 but feel free to flame away.......

[mroliver77]

Thinking on this, the conditions around here are rarely conducive to 600 yard shooting in the hunting season. Gusty wind, gray skies and thick wet air make it nasty.

Then in the summer mirage gets so bad you watch the woodchucks "blow away" or disappear in the waves of mirage.

It strikes me as funny they picked this area for the National Matches! Camp Perry 1 hour away.
J

[lead chucker]

I wouldnt want to be the poor guy that has to track down a wounded bear in the thick brush. I have been charged by one brown bear and would not like to have a repeat of that ever again. We had a big brown bear come into our black bear bait station. They are intence.

[BretMavrick]

Shooting paper at 600yds or even 1000yds is total different the shooting at a live animal that can move quite a bit between the time you make the decision to pull the trigger and the bullet gets there. Then you have a wounded animal. Not the right thing to do.
A TV show like this is irresponsible, it causes some people to think this is standard practice.

A real hunter shows his skills by getting as close to the animal as possible for a clean kill

[milprileb]

Are we hunting or just shooting animals?

Humane kills for game ? or shooting for the sport of killing and bragging rights ?

There are ethics here: its not about what you can do with a 3006
at that distance, its about what you should do with a 3006 at that distance.

If you can't decipher the teaching point here, then reach down and sort out your
value system and how you approach hunting.

[Larry Gibson]

onesonek

Good answers and I've not problems with any of them. As said, it's a matter of personal opinion, ethics and what one considers "hunting".

Larry Gibson

[emrah]

One of the guys that works for me takes hail mary shots at deer every year, He hunts with a pump shotgun with a turkey scope on it( the one with the circle instead of cross hairs) This year he was lucky enough to get a 4 pointer at 180 yards or so, I will NOT hunt with him, He is so irresponsible that after he shot it, he let it hang for 7 days with the hide on at 50-60 degrees, when he skinned it, the meat had a gray color to it, He says he will eat it anyway.

Just a note about the deer hanging for 7 days thing... I have heard and read from more than one source (including butchers) who advocate this. A gutted deer, left to hang with the skin still on is "supposed" to be aged, just like aging beef in a fancy restaurant. They say sub-50 or 60 degrees is optimum. Supposed to make the meat more tender. If there is any "graying" of the meat, it's only the very top layer that forms a protective crust. The meat inside is (well, SHOULD be) nice and tender.

Of course, this is in a cool, shady place with no animals, flies, dirt, direct sun, etc.

Emrah

P.S. I consider 150-200 yards a long shot for me, so I'm in complete agreement with most of the comments here. I have a HUGE issue with people that refer to animals as a score. You can't eat antlers.

[onesonek]

Just a note about the deer hanging for 7 days thing... I have heard and read from more than one source (including butchers) who advocate this. A gutted deer, left to hang with the skin still on is "supposed" to be aged, just like aging beef in a fancy restaurant. They say sub-50 or 60 degrees is optimum. Supposed to make the meat more tender. If there is any "graying" of the meat, it's only the very top layer that forms a protective crust. The meat inside is (well, SHOULD be) nice and tender.

Of course, this is in a cool, shady place with no animals, flies, dirt, direct sun, etc.

Emrah

P.S. I consider 150-200 yards a long shot for me, so I'm in complete agreement with most of the comments here. I have a HUGE issue with people that refer to animals as a score. You can't eat antlers.


Not sure what butchers you are refering to, I would like to see that 7 day recommendation for deer, and also the sub 50-60 degree temps. Is that 49 degrees? Of course there are differences in aging techniques, but the main old school rule of thumb was/is 1 day per 100 weight (live) at 35 degrees.
A deer left with the hide on at 45-50 degrees for 7 days? well,,,,, I won't be eating it. Hide off and at 33 degrees I would, but you are going to have quite a bit of shrink/loss.
Now all that said,,,,some the best beef I had, was aged in controlled climate for no less than 21 days. But that was 34-35 degrees and 80% humidity. There was quite a bit of loss there too, but you could cut it a fork. And also with this practice, it's on the verge, and goes through a flavor transformation. Most folks today would turn up their noses at such. But then again, with todays boxed/bagged processing at the packer level,,, I have let beef age in the bag 5-6 weeks. Beyond that, it's pretty much a point of no gain in tenderness. Also, it wont have that same aging flavor change as open air aging.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
There is a condition that I would take that shot.
The animal was ALREADY WOUNDED & about to go over a ridge, Or dark setting in on a wounded animal. I would not want it to suffer any more than it already had.

As a collage student I would go out every Saturday & shoot 100 rounds out ether my 7MM/06 or my 7MM MAG. at a steel plate 17" h x 12"w. i set up at ether 500 or 600yrd. got to a 80% hit rate. Got so I could judge distance well enough to make my friends amazed. Very few shooters practice those critical arts enough.
In fact most hunters would be astounded at what most of our board members can do with a pistol or rifle.
I hunt for meat to eat, yet I have passed up shots on game that I could have made on steel.
From the above posts it is obvious that we as a group would not start the ball at that range.:Fire::Fire:

[Olevern]

One of the guys that works for me takes hail mary shots at deer every year, He hunts with a pump shotgun with a turkey scope on it( the one with the circle instead of cross hairs) This year he was lucky enough to get a 4 pointer at 180 yards or so, I will NOT hunt with him, He is so irresponsible that after he shot it, he let it hang for 7 days with the hide on at 50-60 degrees, when he skinned it, the meat had a gray color to it, He says he will eat it anyway.

Sounds like a self-correcting problem to me.

[emrah]

Ok, update. Here's a link on butchering and aging. It DOES say that the skin should be left on. And that it can hang agin for up to two weeks. I was wrong on the temperature. It says sub-40. Sub-35 even better.

http://www.askthemeatman.com/Deer%20Handling%20Tips.htm

Emrah

[Lloyd Smale]

I wouldnt for a second be afraid to hunt ANY bear with an 06 using a proper bullet. I would though have to pass on a shot that long using an 06 or for that matter any rifle.