1:9 or 1:12 22CF

[Marlin Junky]

I wanna shoot the heaviest .22 boolits and light weight copper patch too; and, I want to be able to hit orchard burglars at 100+ yards with both. Is success more likely with a 1:9 or 1:12 twist? Rifling pitch is key and a 1:9 .224 is virtually the same as a 1:12 .308 (with respect to pitch) which can stabilize a 200 grain boolit out to 500 yards or more if shot near 2000 fps (assuming nice strong rifling). Therefore, I'm thinking 1:9 in .224 caliber is over kill and a 1:12 might be a better choice. Chamber selection is probably narrowed to either 223 or 22-250 since the Triple-Duece Mag would be a custom proposition unless a Sako (1:12) should fall into my hands dirt cheap (not very likely). I have a lead on a 788 in .223 which I believe comes with a 1:12 twist.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Since this was viewed 70 times without a single reply, allow me to take a different approach. I'm sure there are a few SAECO 221 owners out there so I'm wondering what the minimum launch velocity would be from a 1:12 twist that would enable stabilization out to about 200 yards. Can 1" groups at 100 yards be expected at 22LR velocities (assuming no wind, naturally)? I'm not expecting this kind of accuracy with everyday handloading practices, I just want to know if it's probable under ideal circumstances. I'd like to use heat treated 50/50 alloy (air cools to BHN 11 - heat treats to 25+).

Thanks
MJ

P.S. Lyman 225646 would be another mold of interest and might even be preferred over SAECO 221 because the former has less mass in the mold which might make it easier to keep hot. I think the two boolits are about the same length and it looks like the CG of 225646 might be nearer the base compared to SAECO 221.

[rhbrink]

If this helps you any I have shot the NOE 70 grain boolit looks like a scaled down 311299 out of a 12" twist Encore and it shot very well at 100 yards. the best 5 shot groups are around .75" with most running around 1" maybe a bit larger. I haven't shot it at 200 but would like to try sometime. My load was around 14 grains of 4198.

We have a shooter at our club that is working with a Savage 9" twist but I don't know how his new toy is working out I could try to find out? He is also using the Noe 70 grain boolit

John Alexander at the recent CBA national championship was using a Tikka with a 8" twist and a custom 84 grain boolit shooting 6 grains of Blue Dot. His small 5 shot group at 100 was .621 with the largest being 1.436. At 200 yards his smallest was 2.523 with the largest at 3.679.

I also have a older Sako in 222 mag with a 14" twist that shoots the Lyman 225415 very well at 100 yards. Many 5 shot groups under 1" with some a lot smaller but that is about as long a boolit that it will stablize. Around 10 grains of 2400 works very well with that.

Hope this helps you some.

Richard

[Mk42gunner]

What would your 200 grain .308 weigh if it were proportionately shrunk down to .224"?

Personally, I think I would go for a .223 with 1:12 twist. I believe you can overspin a projectile, if you don't believe it shoot a few groups from a 1:7 AR15 with M193 ball then do the same with M855 ball and see which groups are larger.

The word that is bandied about is overstabilized, which has never made sense to me; either a projectile is stable or it isn't.

Robert

[excess650]

I would opt for the 1-12" twist. I HAD a Rem700 VS in .223 and a Win70 Fwt in 223, and both were supposed to be 1-12". While I never shot cast in either, I did shoot "heavy for the caliber" (at the time) jacketed. They did well with 60-63gr boolits.

Typical 222, 222 Mag, 22-250s are twisted 1-14". The standard twist for the 22 Hornet was 1-16".

For shooting cast, I think the 1-12" will give better velocity potential in a 22cal than will a 1-9".

I loaded some 60gr Nosler Partitions (for my brother) to be used in his 222 Mag Sako. It shot OK, but not up to its potential because the projectile had to be seated deeper than ideal to function through the magazine. I got better accuracy out of it with longer OAL, but it became a single shot at that point.

[Marlin Junky]

I'll return to this thread when I get back from the range but for now...


What would your 200 grain .308 weigh if it were proportionately shrunk down to .224"?

The equivalent SD translates to: 105 grains.


Personally, I think I would go for a .223 with 1:12 twist. I believe you can overspin a projectile, if you don't believe it shoot a few groups from a 1:7 AR15 with M193 ball then do the same with M855 ball and see which groups are larger.

The word that is bandied about is overstabilized, which has never made sense to me; either a projectile is stable or it isn't.

RobertIt's a lot easier to screw a boolit up with too steep rifling pitch than it is to "overstabilize".

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

To answer your question; a 12" twist will provide much better results than the 9" twist, especially at 1900 - 2200+ fps, it's already a proven fact.

Larry Gibson

BTW; since you put it in bold, can you prove your "theory"? ( It's a lot easier to screw a boolit up with too steep rifling pitch than it is to "overstabilize". )

[45 2.1]

John Alexander at the recent CBA national championship was using a Tikka with a 8" twist and a custom 84 grain boolit shooting 6 grains of Blue Dot. His small 5 shot group at 100 was .621 with the largest being 1.436. At 200 yards his smallest was 2.523 with the largest at 3.679.
Richard

This is something to believe.................. Nothing wrong with a fast twist either. 7 twist will do the same or better. 12 twist leaves you with some options that don't work when you get tired of what you want now. Don't believe everything you read on this site.........

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1 gave you a very good answer to your question in your 2nd post; "Can 1" groups at 100 yards be expected at 22LR velocities (assuming no wind, naturally)?" Very good accuracy in 7 - 9" twists can be had at .22LR velocities in appropriate rifles.

While I've not shot cast bullets weighing more than 59 - 60 gr I have killed a lot of ground squirrels out to 150 yards and occasionally out to 200 yards with both the 225415 and the 225462 when loaded to 14-1500 fps. 1 - 1.5" is cone of fire on a Belding ground squirrel and 2" is cone of fire on red or grey diggers (the larger graound squirrels). The terminal ballistics were ok out to 100 yards, pretty much like a .22LR. However, past that, just like the .22LR the "killing" was not very quick and most all the squirrels (unless headshot) dies a lingerin, suffering death. Some don't mind that and I'm not preaching otherwise but I don't care for any animal I shoot to die slowly. Thus I went to higher velocities in slower twists to maintain accuracy and increase the terminal ballistcs. Just my personal choice is all.

However, I do believe you will find most 222 Mags will have 14" twists or the newer ones may have a 12" twist. The original M788s in .223 have 14" twists. If you want to maximize accuracy with velocity above .22LR velocities then the 12" twist will do but the 14" twist will do better, with cast bullets up through 60 gr. So with twists readily available in factory rifles that can give the same accuracy at higher velocity why not take advantage of it?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Some time ago I was contacted through someone else by a couple of members here. Those members had taken the suggestion about putting 14 twist 223 Rem barrels on their ARs. While they worked pretty well for some things........the accuraccy was abysmal for other common (factory) loads. Those barrels cost them some good change and are basically useless to them (anyone want to by a 14 twist barrel). Thats what they said and i'm not saying just who they were. You've been warned..............

[GabbyM]

I've three 223's.
With my load of 14.5 grains H4198 under a Lyman #225646.
My M700 varmint weight gun with 12 twist will group them sub MOA. The Colt SP-1 with 12 twist thin barrel shoots them about like it shoots M193 ball. Maybe a little better. The 223 SAMI chamber AR with 20" bull barrel 1-9” twist barely keeps them on a piece of notebook paper at 100 yards. That’s not very scientific but it’s about what I’d expect.

They run 2,122 fps from the 26 inch barrel and don’t really drop to much at 200 yards. It’s right on what the chart says when using the published B.C. of the 225646 of .155. Never clocked them out of either AR and don’t really have much interest in shooting cast from the auto loaders.

[mpmarty]

Never having any use for or desire for a 223 my experience with 22 centerfires is with a Remington 788 in 22/250 and it had a 14" twist. With 52gr hpbt over H-380 on a still morning it would print cloverleaf holes at 200 yards. Done it at the Juniper Tree rifle range many years ago. Carried a piece of that target around with me for some time too.

Wes Thompson signed that target for me.

[Marlin Junky]

...12 twist leaves you with some options that don't work when you get tired of what you want now.

For example?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

We have a shooter at our club that is working with a Savage 9" twist but I don't know how his new toy is working out I could try to find out? He is also using the Noe 70 grain boolit.

Sure, keep us posted... PM me if you'd like.

Thanks,
MJ

[Marlin Junky]

...BTW; since you put it in bold, can you prove your "theory"? ( It's a lot easier to screw a boolit up with too steep rifling pitch than it is to "overstabilize". )

You betcha.

MJ

[45 2.1]

For example? MJ

Heavy boolit in cold weather for one.


You betcha. MJ

Yeap, with conventional loading techniques mentioned here. Learn more and get a lot better accuracy and you'll change your tune.

[JIMinPHX]

There has been a great deal of debate & controversy regarding twist rate & cast boolits. I have not done my homework on that one yet, so I'll limit my comments here to J-word projectiles.

I have fired 55-gr FMJ in a 1:12 .223 & found that the bullets were marginally stabilized. 55-grain soft points, that were slightly shorter, stabilized well. 65-grain Power Points patterned like a shotgun. 40-50 grain soft points & V-Max bullets shot great in the 1:12.

A 1:9 twist rifle was able to produce good groups with the same 65-grain ammo that did not shoot well in the 1:12.

Perhaps by coincidence, this all agrees with the Greenhill Formula for calculating proper twist. According to Greenhill, longer bullets need a faster twist to stabilize.

[Larry Gibson]

Appears MJ is referring to a bolt action here and not an AR(?). With a bolt action, given a 22-26" barrel, a 14" twist barrel will stabilized almost all cast bullet designs up through 60 gr. It will do this quite accurately from a low end .22LR vewlocity up through a high end velocity of 2400+ fps. The 12" twist will stabilize a 70 gr cast bullet with accuracy upwards of 2200+ fps unless the 70 gr cast bullet is a streamlined spitzer shape. I'm guessing, since killing squirrels is part of the question, that MJ will use a RN or FP designed bullet. If he want s to stick with the 70 gr bullet at 22LR velocities then a 9" tist will suffice nicels.

However, it seems his choice is between the 12" and 14" twist with the Sako and M788 rifles. If the 70 gr bullet is the bullet of choice the 12" twist SAKO should be the choice. Other discussion are a rather moot point.

MJ; Be nice to read and see any proof of your thoery.

Larry Gibson

[Bad Water Bill]

A while back I had a Savage 223 1- 9 twist turned into a 222. Once you go past a starting load with some pb weights it is interesting watching a grey cloud appear after about 25 yards. No holes in the 50 yard targets.

Have no idea what happened as the wind blew the card with all the data into the wild blue. I now have a special clip board to hold the cards.

Yes I think PB can be turned into powder if twisted and pushed just a little to much.

Can I work up loads that will not turn into rain clouds? Of course. Just has not worked its way to the top of the stack yet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

There has been a great deal of debate & controversy regarding twist rate & cast boolits. I have not done my homework on that one yet, so I'll limit my comments here to J-word projectiles.

I have fired 55-gr FMJ in a 1:12 .223 & found that the bullets were marginally stabilized. 55-grain soft points, that were slightly shorter, stabilized well. 65-grain Power Points patterned like a shotgun. 40-50 grain soft points & V-Max bullets shot great in the 1:12.

A 1:9 twist rifle was able to produce good groups with the same 65-grain ammo that did not shoot well in the 1:12.

Perhaps by coincidence, this all agrees with the Greenhill Formula for calculating proper twist. According to Greenhill, longer bullets need a faster twist to stabilize.

Same here,

I would like to add this.
I have a TC Contender rifle in 223AI (1-12)
when Barnes came out with the Varmint Grenade®
I tried shooting the 50 gr. .224 in my TC,
this long bullet (long, due to it's light metal composition)
would not stabilize no matter how fast I could push it...KEYHOLE BABY !
Jon

PS As I type this, I can't remember if my rifle is 1-12 or 1-14.
anyway, the long light bullet needed a faster twist.

[Larry Gibson]

The TC should have been a 12" twist. Stabilization is based on length of bullet not the weight. When cast bullet weights are discussed concerning twist rates the bullets are generall standard RN or FPs which, of course, means a shorter bullet per given caliber. Long tapered bt's VLD type bullets do require faster twists.

However, remember the .223 with the 55 gr FMJBT was originally made to be stabilized, though minimally, from a 14" twist. It was found that when the temp dropped to below freezing the velocity dropped enough (out of 20" XM16 barrels) that the bullets were not stabilized and accuracy suffered. Thus the change to the faster 12" twist. As to cast bullets we shoot the very same weight bullets (35 - 60 gr) with excellent accuracy in the 14" twist cartridges at nominal cast bullet velocities from very low subsonic to 2400+ fps. We also shoot 30 - 50 gr cast bullets in 16" twist Hornets with excellent accuracy.

Why then do we need a 12, 9 or 7" twist to shoot the very same cast bullets in the .223 at the same velocities? The answer is; we don't. The 12 & 14" twists will work very well and better if higher velcoities are wanted, especially the 14" twist. The 12" twist will also wok very well with the 70 gr NOE cast bullet as reported.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Why then do we need a 12, 9 or 7" twist to shoot the very same cast bullets in the .223 at the same velocities? The answer is; we don't. The 12 & 14" twists will work very well and better if higher velcoities are wanted, especially the 14" twist. The 12" twist will also wok very well with the 70 gr NOE cast bullet as reported. Larry Gibson

I've noticed that some of these guys want to shoot at rimfire velocities. Not much mention of higher velocities. Make them a deal since your pushing the slow twist so hard........... fund their slow twist barrel, if it works then they pay you cost. If it doesn't work for them... then SOL for you. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: Temperature and velocity do make a difference here............

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

?????

All .22LRs are 14 or 16" twists. They work very well with 32 - 40 gr bullets......kind of a proven fact those twists work the best the last 100+ years. So if wanting to shoot .22 cal cast bullets of at the same rimfire velocity then why not go with what is proven best? As I mentioned in my posts the 12 and 14" twist CFs are also proven performers with heavier 50 -60 gr cast bullets at 22 rimfire velocities. If wanting the heavier 60 - 70 gr cast bullets then the 9 - 12" twists are proven performers.

We all understand that your disagreement is going to be with me, not the facts. All the other posts here have agreed with those facts yet you only disagree with me. Perhaps it's time to let that go?

MJ asked about the 12 and 14" twist Sako and M788 rifles.....so what really is your point?

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

Actually Larry my original questions were with respect to 1:9" vs. 1:12". There's a gunshow coming my way at the end of January and I'll be looking for a bolt action .223 with a 9" twist and strong rifling. In the mean time, if that 788 I referenced earlier (should be 1:12" according to Remington) looks good, I'll pick that up too. It should make for interesting comparisons assuming the barrels have similar chamber/throat/groove/land configurations... how unlikely could that be?

MJ

[rhbrink]

I think that is just a outstanding idea buy both do a comparison and report the results.

There is a group buy coming up for the NOE 225 62gr FN (MXS-22EX) that is just a great shooting boolit that would work in both twist I think. I do know for fact that it is the best shooting boolit that I have tried in my 12" twist Encore. With the flat nose I would think that it would make a great 22 hunting boolit too.

Good Luck

Richard

[Larry Gibson]

Actually Larry my original questions were with respect to 1:9" vs. 1:12". There's a gunshow coming my way at the end of January and I'll be looking for a bolt action .223 with a 9" twist and strong rifling. In the mean time, if that 788 I referenced earlier (should be 1:12" according to Remington) looks good, I'll pick that up too. It should make for interesting comparisons assuming the barrels have similar chamber/throat/groove/land configurations... how unlikely could that be?

MJ

That's fine as the 9" twist will work well with .22 RF velocities. However, you did quantify the (or confuse?) the question with;

"Chamber selection is probably narrowed to either 223 or 22-250 since the Triple-Duece Mag would be a custom proposition unless a Sako (1:12) should fall into my hands dirt cheap (not very likely). I have a lead on a 788 in .223 which I believe comes with a 1:12 twist.

That led me to assume (perhaps a mistake on my part) you were interested in the 12" twist Sako or what would be a 14" twist with the M788.

The M788s are 14" twists. They simply began chambering the .222 Re, M788s in .223 as a number of individuals like me were rechambering them. I did several of them. They are 14" twists, I measured every one I rechambered. None the less, the 12 or 14" twist would still suit your needs better and in .22 cal would give a broader range of performance with cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

The M788s are 14" twists. They simply began chambering the .222 Re, M788s in .223 as a number of individuals like me were rechambering them. I did several of them. They are 14" twists, I measured every one I rechambered. None the less, the 12 or 14" twist would still suit your needs better and in .22 cal would give a broader range of performance with cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

To follow is what Remington sent to my inbox on 12-16-11:

"The twist rate on your 788 is 1:12. Some of our newer models have a 1:14 depending on the model."

in response to my question:

Could someone please provide the rate of twist(s) furnished on the Model 788 in .223 chambering. I believe 1:12" was the most common; however, I am curious whether 1:14" was also offered at some point in time.

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

I guess it's possible Remington switched to the 12" twist as production increased. Thus I could be wrong about the majority of them. When they announced the M788 in .223 I called Remington and asked. They said it was a 14" twist, the same as the M788 in .222 and the M40X in .223. Sure enough I ordered 3 of them (had an FFL at the time) and when they came in they were 14" twists as I measured them. I didn't measure any after that. However, as mentioned the 12" twist will do nicely for the requirements you've set.

Larry Gibson