Was Re-Loading In The Past Deadlier?

[UtopiaTexasG19]

Does anyone have any factual information about how re-loading was done prior to the 1920's by individuals? Were there kits like the Lee Handload set up and what was used for scales? Did folks, farmers and those who lived in very rural areas, load their own, or was something like the old Sears catalog used for buying bullets? I am just curious as to the methods used way, way back to re-load. Thanks...

[cbrick]

Google the book "The Complete Guide To Handloading" by Philip Sharpe. There is great detail on this and much more. Written in the 1920's in many respects it is still the gold standard.

Rick

[Rocky Raab]

Lyman made hand tools back then. Loading tools, moulds and components were popular among buffalo hunters.

Lots of other companies were making reloading tools, most of which are long gone. Lachmiller, Texan, and Ideal are examples. There were many more.

[Jim]

Google the book "The Complete Guide To Handloading" by Philip Sharpe. There is great detail on this and much more. Written in the 1920's in many respects it is still the gold standard.

Rick

I have the Third Edtion(1953) of that on my shelf. WONDERFUL book!

[Bret4207]

Also look for Ned Roberts books, Earl Naramores even Keiths early writings. Many of the scheutzen riflemen of the day wrote for the old "Shooting and Fishing", "Outing" and other periodicals of the day describing their practices. One of the common ideas I see repeated time after time is for reloaders to go to their druggist to have charges weighed out. Then the reloader would cut a scoop to fit that powder charge. Also remember that black powder was in regular use into the 30's anyway and that was (and is) loaded by volume, not weight, so measurement was simpler. Primers were available and re-priming hasn't changed much. Nutcracker style tools were used and resizing dies similar to Lees hand dies could be made up on order or by a talented local mechanic.

It really wasn't that different than now, just took a little longer to get the "stuff" and find the info.

[Mk42gunner]

Funny you should mention the Sears catalog; I have a reprint of the 1902 (IIRC) catalog. It has quite a gun and reloading section in it. Remington No 2 Rolling Blocks cost $7.50. Wish I could find one for that price now.

Winchester and Marlin also made tong type loading tools in the 1800's. You still see Winchester molds occassionally, they look like decent molds to me; unfortunaely someone else has always wanted them worse than I did when I have seen them at auctions.

Sharps sold reloading gear to go along with their rifles.

I have to believe that shotgun loading was common, given the number of roll crimping tools I have seen in second hand shops and flea markets, usually mis-identified.

Robert

[uscra112]

As soon as there were brass cases, there was reloading. The earliest cases had no primer, just a small hole where the flame from a percussion cap could enter to ignite the (black) powder. Civil War Maynards worked this way. Those cases were almost always reloaded, unless they were lost in battle. (See "A guide to the Maynard Breechloader" by George Layton.) Some early Ballards could fire rimfire cartridges, but with a quick switch on the breechblock, a cap could be fired. The reloader poked a hole in the used rimfire case with a nail, reloaded it with black, and reverted to the percussion cap.

Then came smokeless, and in the early days there was great trouble with people loading smokeless like they did black, (i.e. fill the case up and seat a boolit). Even after "bulk smokeless" appeared, this misunderstanding must have blown up quite a few guns, (and reloaders).

Bulk smokeless was therefor invented for the shotshell reloader, who knew how to ladle out his powder by the "dram", but had no scale, other than what he weighed his grain and hogs on, and that was rarely accurate even to the pound, never mind grains. The "dram" measure concept survives today, just look at any box of new shot-shells.

It took quite a while for precision powder-measuring to catch on.

Go on eBay and you will find reprints of the old Ideal reloading handbooks going back into the 19th century for sale. Abby at Cornell Publications has done an incredible job of collecting, cataloging, reprinting stuff from that era.

Here's one URL:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-1900-Hand-Book-Shooters-No-12-/290638533985?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item43ab681561

[floodgate]

For the pre-1900 stuff, go to Chamberlain & Quigley's "Cartridge Reloading Tools of the Past", available from Tom Quigley, PO Box 1567, Castle Rock, WA 98611 (e-mail: tlqmlq@q.com) for $27 postpaid. If you search on "310 Tools" or "Lyman 310" or "Tong Tools" on this CastBoolits website, you'll also turn up a lot of historical and operational information.

In those days, anywhere away from civilization, you HAD to reload, and some of those old tools work just fine today - if slowly.

floodgate

[geargnasher]

Also look for Ned Roberts books, Earl Naramores even Keiths early writings. Many of the scheutzen riflemen of the day wrote for the old "Shooting and Fishing", "Outing" and other periodicals of the day describing their practices. One of the common ideas I see repeated time after time is for reloaders to go to their druggist to have charges weighed out. Then the reloader would cut a scoop to fit that powder charge. Also remember that black powder was in regular use into the 30's anyway and that was (and is) loaded by volume, not weight, so measurement was simpler. Primers were available and re-priming hasn't changed much. Nutcracker style tools were used and resizing dies similar to Lees hand dies could be made up on order or by a talented local mechanic.

It really wasn't that different than now, just took a little longer to get the "stuff" and find the info.

When I was a starving engineering student with a shooting addiction, I sourced the chemistry department's precision scales during lab sessions to calibrate my dippers made from filed-down cartridge cases with heavy copper wire soldered to them for handles. Once I had 2.8 and 3.0 grains of Bullseye established in 9mm case dippers, I was good to go reloading for my .38 in my tiny travel trailer without need for a scale of my own. I think my minimalist casting and loading methods of the time mirrored those of a hundred years ago, for much the same reasons. I was careful, had good load data, and never had a single safety issue with my ammo.

Gear

[W.R.Buchanan]

It's already been covered but as long as there has been brass cartridges, they've been reloading them. If you lived away from a town you pretty much had to.

I have seen old movies were the cowboys were reloading cartridges with BP and using a case to measure the powder, and since they lived in the desert in New Mexico 130 years ago it was a long ride to Santa Fe.

I started reloading when I was in the AF in Texas in 1971. I had a Lee Loader,,, AND a Redding Scale.

In other words, I was about one click above what they were doing in 1880! They didn't have plastic mallets!

People don't seem to realize that those tools still work just as good as they did 150 years ago, and so do Flintlocks!

Of course we have a lot of better stuff to use today, but if push came to shove and you had to survive for a long time and had no resources other than what you could scrounge, would you rather have an Electronic Ray Gun, or a Flintlock and a bullet mould? You can make BP with what is available on the ground, you'd be hard pressed to make a Power Cell for a dead Ray Gun.

I think the flintlock would get you further down the road.

A friend is giving me his Lee Loader in .44 mag, says he has no use for it.. I do! I can keep 4 guns running with it and a plastic mallet. AND,,, I still have my Redding Powder Scale!.

Randy

[Bret4207]

Not really on topic, but I think reloading used to be a lot simpler. I started with a Lee hand kit, some powder and primers- that's it! I think I'd been reloading 3-4 years before I got access to a scale. I used dippers exclusively for several years, going to an older guy I knew and having him weigh out charges for me so I could make dippers. I never had an electric pot, much less a BP, till 1998 IIRC and it might have been well after that. I didn't know I needed a hardness tester, progressive press, Rock Chucker press, tumblers, trimmers, primer pocket uniformers, annealing machines, custom dies/moulds/brass, dribblers, electronic scales with powder dispensers, chronographs, range carts, multiple BP pots, Star sizers with air pressure lube reservoirs and hydraulic operation, benchrest dies, cowboy dies, carbide dies, X dies, small base dies, lube heaters, ballistics programs and test equipment...........in short, it was just a lot simpler.

[Hang Fire]

It would be interesting to see what a 5,000 page catalog of Simmons Hardware Company (St. Louis, MO) had to offer back around turn of the 20th century. They bought many guns and related accessories from manufactures in large amounts, sold to the public but also acted as distributor to smaller hardware stores and gun shops across the nation.

I have a Colt SAA that was built in 1886 and was one of 15 shipped to Simmons in Feb. 1887, but there the trail ends as almost none of their records survive.

[uscra112]

I have a couple of the old Winchester heavy-duty reloading tools, with the die that screwed onto the body with a big coarse thread. Unlike the Ideal tong tools, the Winchester tool will full-length size even a .45-70 case, along with everything else it did. Beautifully made, too.

[perotter]

Does anyone have any factual information about how re-loading was done prior to the 1920's by individuals? Were there kits like the Lee Handload set up and what was used for scales? Did folks, farmers and those who lived in very rural areas, load their own, or was something like the old Sears catalog used for buying bullets? I am just curious as to the methods used way, way back to re-load. Thanks...

One branch of my family went right from muzzle loader to reloading. On their home farm, that one of my great uncle still owned until about 1970, is were they did reloaded shotgun & rifle shells.

I saw the equipment they used when I was 5-7 years old and don't recall there being a powder scale. The shotgun tools were like Lee Loaders. The rifle were tong type. I think they used dippers and the 1st powder scale being one that my dad's oldest brother got after WW2.

None of them are around any more to ask for more detail.

FWIW, I don't think reloading was any deadlier using the tools that they had. Then, as now, it came down to doing it as a thoughtful process. In my family it's a given that you are going to learn to reload. I started at age 11 with a Lee Loader for .410 and added other Lee Loaders over the next few years. The only exception was when my dad(he wasn't big on guns) bought a 12 ga and my uncle ordered the Lee Load All for that.

[3006guns]

As soon as there were brass cases, there was reloading. The earliest cases had no primer, just a small hole where the flame from a percussion cap could enter to ignite the (black) powder. Civil War Maynards worked this way. Those cases were almost always reloaded, unless they were lost in battle. (See "A guide to the Maynard Breechloader" by George Layton.) Some early Ballards could fire rimfire cartridges, but with a quick switch on the breechblock, a cap could be fired. The reloader poked a hole in the used rimfire case with a nail, reloaded it with black, and reverted to the percussion cap.

Then came smokeless, and in the early days there was great trouble with people loading smokeless like they did black, (i.e. fill the case up and seat a boolit). Even after "bulk smokeless" appeared, this misunderstanding must have blown up quite a few guns, (and reloaders).

Bulk smokeless was therefor invented for the shotshell reloader, who knew how to ladle out his powder by the "dram", but had no scale, other than what he weighed his grain and hogs on, and that was rarely accurate even to the pound, never mind grains. The "dram" measure concept survives today, just look at any box of new shot-shells.

It took quite a while for precision powder-measuring to catch on.

Go on eBay and you will find reprints of the old Ideal reloading handbooks going back into the 19th century for sale. Abby at Cornell Publications has done an incredible job of collecting, cataloging, reprinting stuff from that era.

Here's one URL:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-1900-Hand-Book-Shooters-No-12-/290638533985?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item43ab681561

This is the most appropriate answer to the question, I believe. There really was no "precision" as we take it for granted today. Let's face it, you'd really have to try to get yourself in trouble with black powder as the pressure curve is nowhere near that of smokeless. I think the worst that could happen would be an inaccurate load and some fouling.

By the way, I have copies of both Earl Naramore and Phil Sharpe's books and peruse them regularly for nostalgia. I prefer Naramore's direct solid advice. Sharpe gives me the impression of a somewhat arrogant "know it all" (I base that comment on an old friend who actually MET him).

[perotter]

I use Phil Sharpe's book as a reference for using Unique, 2400, etc in rifle cartridges. I treat it as I would any load data, careful thought.

There are free e-books at Steve's Page available for both Naramore's and Sharpe's books.

[Bret4207]

This is the most appropriate answer to the question, I believe. There really was no "precision" as we take it for granted today. Let's face it, you'd really have to try to get yourself in trouble with black powder as the pressure curve is nowhere near that of smokeless. I think the worst that could happen would be an inaccurate load and some fouling.

By the way, I have copies of both Earl Naramore and Phil Sharpe's books and peruse them regularly for nostalgia. I prefer Naramore's direct solid advice. Sharpe gives me the impression of a somewhat arrogant "know it all" (I base that comment on an old friend who actually MET him).

I also had an older acquaintance who knew Sharpe from working with him in WW2. He also said he was somewhat arrogant and that his best friend was the bottle. No matter, his work remains and is superb.

As far as older reloading book go I prefer JR Mattern. Excellent book with a bit of humor in there and LOTS of cast info! IIRC the title is "Handloading Ammunition".

[1Shirt]

You used what you had way back when. Recall an article in (I think) one of the old Gun Digests on loading with a hammer and a nail what was ground down to knock out the primer, and a wood dowl to seat the new primer. Ctg was a 30-30 I believe, and a dipper made of a cut off case was used. Think that had to be the forerunner of the Lee loader. Blt was cast, cake cut lubed as cast, and ctg was single loaded. I started with a used 310 tool in 222, and a used Webster, oil dampered scale, and an old lyman manual. Brings back memories, mostly good!
It was not for sure production loading, but it brought great satisfaction.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Bad Water Bill]

I finally finished reading my copy of "Yours truly Harvey Donaldson"

He started shooting and re loading about 1899 and continued till he died sometime in 1972. His stories of shooting with the likes of POPE etc are very entertaining and educational. A great read for the folks that do not have copies of the first 15-20 HANDLOADER magazines.

There is so much info there you will suffer brain overload several times and he wrote like you were sitting across the campfire from him.

[Char-Gar]

I think reloading today is more dangerous than when they used hand tools as mentioned in the OP. There are more overcharges and blowup firearms today with all the new progressive tools in use. I started reloading well over 50 years ago, and read and hear more today of blow up firearms with reloads than I did "back in the day".

[geargnasher]

Back in the day you didn't have mass media and the internet, either. If some Joe blew himself up at a range four states away you likely never heard about it unless he was a well-known person.

Gear

[Bad Water Bill]

Well we have a zillion kinds of powder today with all kinds of burning rates and many more ways of distracting us while we re load,so yes it COULD be more dangerous.

Also in the old days if someone passed gas 2 counties away it did not make the national or international news. I think with the internet,TV,news papers and radio all hunting for the next big story we are just covering things 20 X more.

Not saying it is or is not more dangerous just more exposure by a gun hating media.

[Char-Gar]

Back in the day you didn't have mass media and the internet, either. If some Joe blew himself up at a range four states away you likely never heard about it unless he was a well-known person.

Gear

As a factual statement that is true. Nonetheless I am still convinced that progressive loaders are the causal factor behind many firearm blowups. I learn of them far more often by word of mouth from shooters I know and that has not changed over the years, with the advent of mass media and the internet.

[cbrick]

Nonetheless I am still convinced that progressive loaders are the causal factor behind many firearm blowups.

I think so also, too many people have as their prime concern how fast can they go on a machine where it is much more difficult to keep an eye on each stage and operation.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I have to agree that the progressives do add a whole new dimension to the dangers of reloading. Every time I go to the local public shooting facility I'm reminded how many people are out there with guns that probably shouldn't be, much less be reloading ammunition for them. If the average fellow has so little interest in what he's doing that he doesn't take it upon himself to be educated on basic bore sighting and scope zeroing practices, how educated is he going to be about stuffing powder and boolits in cases?

Gear

[swheeler]

Was Re-Loading In The Past Deadlier? From what I've seen posted on the internet I doubt it!

['74 sharps]

Concerning accidents, I feel confident I have that covered. The powders I use for my 45Colt and 45-70 fill the case so far up that throwing a double charge will make the case overflow. Both powders
are distinctive in granule shapes. Have never tried it, but I believe the maximum charge in both calibers is 100 % case capacity. I use 6.5 gr TrailBoss in my Colt SAA,, and 40 gr H4895 for my Sharps.
Being retired, speed is not important to me; hence, a single stage press and loading block.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I wonder if some of this is about location. Clearly, some things are more dangerous, depending on where you live.

Why, just this morning, I learned, thanks to the handy warning label, extensions cords cause cancer and birth defects if you use them in California.

[Bad Water Bill]

CAUTION your SS splnning lure is a carcinogenic and has been proven to cause cancer and birth defects in unborn children.

Again in California.:confused:

[cbrick]

CAUTION your SS splnning lure is a carcinogenic and has been proven to cause cancer and birth defects in unborn children.

Again in California.:confused:

Does it make you feel warm & fuzzy all over to make jokes about California?

You need to open your eyes and look around you. Your own state has no shortage of laws more whacked than CA. In particular gun laws.

Rick

[Bad Water Bill]

Touchy touchy

No joke was intended. Just reading off the label on the lure.

I hope you feel better now.

No one knows better than us here how bad things are but we keep putting OUR governors away so they can only hurt themselves. :bigsmyl2:

[Green Frog]

I think reloading today is more dangerous than when they used hand tools as mentioned in the OP. There are more overcharges and blowup firearms today with all the new progressive tools in use. I started reloading well over 50 years ago, and read and hear more today of blow up firearms with reloads than I did "back in the day".

I have to wonder whether part of the problem today is more people who are less familiar (on a day to day basis) with shooting safety and procedures; jumping in and trying to load the largest number of rounds in the shortest time, these being the biggest, baddest rounds out there. The concept of "... a little is good, more is better, too much is just right..." is alive and well in the American Psyche. :rolleyes:

Also, little things like reading and following directions may come as a bit too much for the guy who just bought a gun and all this reloading stuff, so of course he can use it! With the exception of the extreme spread of characteristics in powder types and the availability of some hyper-performance rounds, the rest of reloading is pretty much the same it was 125 years ago. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :coffee:

Froggie

PS I have some of those 19th century reloading tools in connection with my single shot rifles, and yes, they do still work the same way, if not quite as quickly, as what I can still buy new today. :mrgreen:

[John Boy]

Utopia, going way back into the 1800's, the Europeans were much more advanced in reloading than the Americans. Many if not all the ideas here came from the Europeans, primarily Great Britain. there were reloading dies that equaled the dies made in today's time. About the only difference was roll crimpers were used for paper shotshells. There were no plastic hulls and star crimping was not used

[mroliver77]

Somehow it always turns into "Bash the progressive press"! sigh!
J

[rintinglen]

When smokeless powders came to be widely distributed in the early 1900s, there were far more guns blown up than can be attributed to the wide spread use of progressive reloaders today, especially when the volumn of production and use is concerned
. Guys like Crossman, Roberts, Major Charles Askins, and others writing in the first two decades of the 20th century frequently and fervently warned against the reckless use of smokeless powder with BP tools and practices.

"He died from monkeying with a nitro powder about which he knew nothing."

So wrote John Barlow before Anyone under 101 was born. Elmer Keith, Townsend Whelen and Gen. Hatcher also wrote about gun blow ups caused by "new-fangled" smokeless powders. I think that it is fair to say that reloading 100 years ago was less safe, more tiresome, more time consuming and more troublesome than it is today, and by a long shot. Things we take for granted--like reloading manuals--were mighty thin on the ground. Though some may say otherwise, these are the good, old days

[Texantothecore]

I know it was much simpler. Most black powder was poured in to fill the case and then compressed with a stick, Etc.

One of the instructions with the older sets says "Step 4: trim flashing from bullet". Yikes.

I have gone backwards due to my love for simplicity. I went from a single stage bench mounted press to a hand press and then to a Lee Classic Loader which is my favorite "Press". Pretty much removes the BS from reloading and I meet a lot of people at the range when I reload.