Forums banding together

[Forester]

I was not sure where to put this link that it would be seen by the right people on this fourm. I for one think that if the details can be worked out it may create a very powerfull tool in protecting what Second Ammendment rights we have left.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=304554

Sorry if it has been posted before.

[Bret4207]

Well, except for the one guy talking about "removing the head" and how the British shot so and so, it seems like a good start.

[Chargar]

I thought that was one of the purposes of the NRA and it's legislative arm! I see no purpose of creating alternative groups when the internet can be used to forward the NRA efforts we all support.

When we create other groups we..

1) Weaken the NRA
2) There will be some sort of power struggle in the new group as folks struggle to be the top dog.
3) There will be "mission creep/drift". as folks try and add their pet political hobby horse to the mission.

The Zumbo affair did indeed demonstrate the power of the internet to communicate and get things done. I do think the shooters, hunters and 2nd. Ammendment folks should capitalize on the momentum. Another group..no I don't think so. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[montana_charlie]

I read the linked thread, and came away with a couple of opinions.

-I agree with Tpr. Bret...Too many think that 'deadly force' is something which needs to be a viable consideration, even when dealing with social, or political matters. Anyone who considers use of a firearm as a second or third choice...instead of the last possible option...should stay out of that group they are trying to start.

- Language is important. Some of the comments displayed in the Zumbo Attack, tends to cast all of us in the very light we don't want to have as a public perception. Whoever becomes a 'representative' in that effort MUST be able to speak without the 'trash language', and still get his point across.

- Chargar has a point. The participants in that thread are casting about for someone to host the effort. They realize that they need somebody with financing, webspace, expertise, learership, and (did I mention) financing.
I think the NRA might be looked upon as a 'centralized meeting ground' if the organization would provide the venue, exert only minimum control over content, and help with the sending of 'alerts' (and etcetra).

Many have abandoned the NRA (to varying degrees) because of discontent with various things. One thread I read had everybody ready to burn their American Rifleman magazines because they didn't win any sweepstakes prizes...for Christ's sake!

If the NRA is the organization with the most effect on Washington...we should all support it (essentially) without reservation. (Anyone who is in it just for the prizes...or just for what can help his particular shooting regimine...is too self-centered to be a useful member.)

It seems possible (to me) that if the NRA agreed to host the project, and that returned sheep to the fold, everybody would benefit.

I'm not a member over at Gunsnet, so I didn't say anything there. But maybe one of you would like to forward some of this to them.
CM

[Scrounger]

Not so much to disagree with you, Chargar, but just to point out that the NRA is a huge bureauracy that uses about 90% of the money that is donated to them in paying their own salaries and supporting infrastructure. What the grass roots people accomplished last week was not only beyond the capability of the NRA, but also was over and done with 6 months before the NRA would have fired its first volley. The power of the internet has not yet been realized.

[Buckshot]

...............I would suppose that the NRA is probably not doing the best job possible about getting the mostest out of each dollar donated, unlike the Salvation Army and a couple other orgs. However I personally do not know how much of each buck gets spent on salary and frills. Your membership dues is what pays for that, and the magazine, and other NRA stuff. Your donations to the NRA-ILA and the NRA-PAC aren't used for anything except that. Surely the lobbyists and staffers get paid from it, and what that whole deal is is wining and dining.

I WANT the NRA to appear proffessional, polished, and deserving of respect. I would be one of the first to howl and say crude words is my money was being friviously spent. But I also do not want some guy with green teeth pulling up in the congressional parking lot in a cloud of oil smoke driving a '67 Valiant, expecting to take the house majority leader out to Crystals for a bag of burgers and a Coke.

Now, however consider the Washington Post's article about the Zumbo thing, and WHO did they quote, or go to for further "Pro Gun" news speak? As much as I admire the other outfits out there, as I posted before I don't diluite my contributions but send them to the most effective, the oldest, and the most respected Pro 2nd Amendment outfit going.

...............Buckshot

[woody1]

Not so much to disagree with you, Chargar, but just to point out that the NRA is a huge bureauracy that uses about 90% of the money that is donated to them in paying their own salaries and supporting infrastructure. What the grass roots people accomplished last week was not only beyond the capability of the NRA, but also was over and done with 6 months before the NRA would have fired its first volley. The power of the internet has not yet been realized.

Yes, the NRA is a big bureauracy and uses lots of our money, but they are the big gun. They have a ton of information available to us if you can find it. I think we as "grass rooters" can use them and then collectively and individually tier off of them and have our own significant impact. How many of you have sent personal mail, e-mails, and faxes to your Senators and Reps. regarding any issue? I'm not asking anyone to answer, just think if we all did what impact we might have. I've not only sent my state Rep letters, e-mails and faxes, but am going to write to all the Dems. on the House Judiciary Committee (where HR 1022 is currently. Whether they read 'em or not...... Y'all couldn't send the same letter I can but can prob'ly think of something rational to say that might impact 'em. ALso, look up who'se funding these folks. Mayhaps you could find some way to impact them also. After all, it was the economic threats pure and simple that tumbled Zumbo. Regards, Woody

[twotrees]

Do any of you belong to GOA (Gun Owner of America)? They are very internet active and will push harder than the NRA. The NRA will and has picked and chosen where and when they will support the 2nd ammendment. We as a group of shooter and hunters have to defend that at EVERY chance, not just the ones that will get the most media coverage.

The NRA was no were to be seen in the Dumo affair and only issued their statement, After the fact. They need to forget "Bang for the buck" and use the dollars, we all send, to fight and quit sending me more than my dues, in adds (and mailing, and phone calls) asking for yet more money.

We have to unite but under an orginization that is 100 % behind us and the 2nd ammendment.

Soap Box down, Flame suit on,

TwoTrees

[cobbmtmac]

Gentlemen, my opinion is to continue our collective NRA support and I am not saying anyone is suggesting anything different. I know there are pro's and con's as to how the $'s are being spent.
I just want to say, that not long after the last election, I witnessed X-President Clinton being interviewed. The question to him was, why was there such an inbalance of Red vs. Blue states? Clinton's responce was, "we lost because of the NRA". He went on to explain about the NRA stronghold in the Red States.
This really stuck with me. Again, I just wanted to add my opinion.
Mac

[Uncle Grinch]

I too feel that the NRA is our best option. Are they the most efficient use of our $$'s? Probably so, but it is in dire need of streamlining. This is a personal thing for me as I am an endowment member. We have members in our club that support gun rights, but are anti NRA. They cite the constant solicitation for money as their prime reason of rejection.

The internet really has not reached it's potential and at it's present state is simply a medium to express our thoughts and views. It, for the most part, doesn't have the political clout that the NRA, GOA, and the 2nd Amendment Foundation has. However the Zumbo backlash does show how much of an impact each of us can impart on various companies and organizations. I'm not sure how much impact it had on our Senators and Congressmen.

(the views expressed above are simply that... my views)

[Wayne Smith]

I left my activist days years ago. Guess I joined the 'enemy' when I went for my doctorate. Anyway, seems that there are doers, there are talkers, and there are organizers. I try to stay away from the latter in any and all guizes. No, I'm not saying that they are all bad, I'm just tired of kneejerk 'immediate need' veiled demands for my time and energy. Yeah, I'm a member of the NRA and proud of it, but don't even belong to my own professional organization - the only one ever censured by Congress, no less! The NRA's e-mailed action statements are enough.

Dumbo shot himself in the crotch and the existing process was adequate. I don't imagine that threatening Ford or IBM with the loss of our buying power will have the impact it had on Remington, so I question the impact we will have outside our nitch, but it's worth a try when the next national question comes up. Meanwhile pay attention to your own state legislatures and contact those representatives.

Remember, all politics is local, and a master liberal politicial made that point.

[schutzen]

I too am not totally satisfied with "everything" the NRA does, but then I am not satisfied with everything my church, my government (state & federal), my wife, and my children do. That's life! I shall not disown my children, divorce my wife, leave the state or country, or disavow my religion; nor will I leave the NRA.
I do however pay more attention to whom I vote for in the NRA Elections. They are my voice in how things are run. As hard core shooters, we need to pony up, become Life Members (yes, I know many are), and VOTE in the NRA Elections and in our governmental elections. Your vote is your voice in government! Use It!

[Chargar]

I am aware the NRA has it's share of infighting and top heavy managment. BUT such is the nature of institutions, be they churches, schools, hospitals, etc. etc. That is just the nature of such things.

My point is creating a new institutions only multiplies the infighting, grasping infighting etc. etc. A new institution is not the answer to an older decadent institution for the new one will catch up with the old one in decadence in very short order.

[pumpguy]

I too have my problems with the NRA. I was not a member for about 12 years and only rejoined just this year. The truth is they are the only real game in town as far as an organization goes. As such, I will, sometimes reluctantly, continue to support them. What we need to remember is that the Zumbo thing was thousands of INDIVIDUALS. Do not send money to the NRA and then just sit back and wait for them to fix everything. Call, email, or write you officials be they local, state or federal. Be firm but polite. Cussing or yelling adds fuel to their fire. Let your point be made in a way they can not use aqainst you. When you are right, you do not need to scream to be heard. If we all do this, our voices will be heard and our goal realized.

[floodgate]

Rick:

"...I would suppose that the NRA is probably not doing the best job possible about getting the mostest out of each dollar donated, unlike the Salvation Army and a couple other orgs. However I personally do not know how much of each buck gets spent on salary and frills. Your membership dues is what pays for that, and the magazine, and other NRA stuff. Your donations to the NRA-ILA and the NRA-PAC aren't used for anything except that. Surely the lobbyists and staffers get paid from it, and what that whole deal is is wining and dining. "

OK, so in your opinion - anyone ese chime in, too - which of the MANY fund-rising elements nested under the NRA umbrella are the ones that are most effective? My life membership covers the "Rifleman' and the basics of being a member. I don't shoot at Raton, though I do believe in the idea of such a national shooting facility, but it at least has some potntial for paying its own way. I try to contribute annualy to the ILA the equivalent of at least the dues I would pay if not a"lifer". Idon't contribute to NRA-PAC, as I am opposed to PAC's in principle as quasi-legal bribery. But a few weeks back I got an offer to sign up as an NRA "Benefactor" (or was it a "Patron"?), for a ridiculously low contribution compared with the normal amount; was that just a ploy to artificially inflate the apparent number of "high bucks" members? And today, I got another mailing asking me to join up with La Pierre's "Second Amendment Task Force", again for a relatively modest buy-in. How does this differ from the ILA? And all of these come with fancy membership cards and certificates, window stickers, etc., etc.. It would seen all these initiatives are just muddying the waters, and making it difficult for a member (who DOES read the Board ballot biographies and tried to make an informed choice). Plus, they MUST reflect a lot of wasted money. Are we just the "soldiers" in internal turf battles , as has happened before, many time over the years, and is this proliferation of individual campaigns, each with its own salary and perks budget, and expensive mailings, and gimmicks and gewgaws, not just diluting our collective efforts, just to boost some individual's status in the organization, or his public vsibility? Is there ONE part of the organization we can throw our not-inconsiderable weight (and dollars; I could easily forego or defer an occasional Group Buy; there's 60 bucks right there!) behind? If there is anyone here who has an opinion or recommendation to offer, please put it before us all for consideration.

For now, though, I will continue to direct contibutions to the ILA, in the absence of a better plan.

And, I DO want to say that I believe our President, Sandra Froman, is one of the most articulate and effective "front persons" we have had for decades; while it's a plus that she's a handsome lady, it is even more important that she is sensible, articulate, and an active shooter.

Doug Elliott

[drinks]

Sandra is great, much better than the prune faced ass who preceded her and was given a $90,000 a year do nothing job by NRA after his term was up.
My big problem with NRA is their stupid mailing lists.
With 2 years still to go on my membership, that ass La Pierre , supposedly, sends me a "Personal Invitation" to join the NRA.
First, I am a member, second, why are they wasting my money soliciting me to join what I belong too?
Are they too stupid to be able to hire someone to keep their books and set up a program to NOT solicit active members to join?
I have real problems with their lack of professional conduct.

[carpetman]

Heck yes we need another. Send your donations to Carpetmans 2nd protector. Don't go let your gun go unprotected. Will accept cash,check,money order,PayPal. PM me for the address--do it now! BTW I dont have an AR or SKS but I sure do like them.

[woody1]

IMO support who you will. For me it's the NRA primarily. BUT as several of you have said, we can't just throw a buck in the collection plate and expect to be "saved." If we're ever to be saved it'll be through individual effort tiered off the NRA and whichever other organizations (GOA comes to mind) you choose to support. The NRA and GOA have lots of resources most of us don't even know about and they're just waiting for you and me to use. How many of you have EVER used the NRA-ILA site to send e-mails and/or letters regarding your gun rights? Don't answer me, just think about it. I know some of you have. I had not until after the Zumbo affair. It's easy once you figure it out. I've currently got about half the Dem. members of the House Judiciary Committee sent letters and/or emails. More tomorrow. Ya think I'm wasting my time? Mebe, but if every one of us sent letters to every one of them........well, who knows. Any registered Democrats out there want to send fellow Demo's. a letter telling them you don't agree with what they're doing about your gun rights. Just something to think about. Mebe you should register Democrat just so you can do that! Mebe you could also help the Demo's. choose who runs too. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, just emptying some thoughts I've had. Regards, Woody

[Lee]

This thread so far has been a slight, gentle, constructive bashing of some of the NRA practices. Some of which I agree with. Again I note the deafening silence from the NRA big-wigs. Do "they" belong to any forums? Do they pay attention to threads like this, available for inspection at MANY forums on the 'Net?? Or........what?? Maybe "they" need a few thousand e-mails sent THEIR way. Let 'em know how the grass roots constituents really feel.
And yes, I'm an NRA member.
I sure hope Sandra and Wayne are reading this. They should................Lee;-)

[Chargar]

Lee... You have hit on an important point. The NRA has not used the Internet to it's best advantage. What little NRA info posted on boards come second or third hand.

The NRA has regional represenatives and it should add an Internet Rep, whose job it is to surf these sites and add information or comment as needed. It would be the best money they could spend to keep their base constituance informed and active. Far more productive than other ways they spend their money.

I hope the Zumbo affair has taught the NRA folks this lesson.

[Bret4207]

Although I'm a Life Member of the NRA, I feel the very letters "NRA" give the media and every anti-gunner a target. I think the more groups that get involved, besides the NRA, the better. I very real problems with the NRA leadership and see no way to address them with my single vote. Seems to me the more groups involved, the more grassroots action, the better. We need a central rally point that consists of more than professional lobbyists (NRA). Several million emails and snail mails and phone calls would seem to me to be far more effective than the NRA taking so and so out to lunch.

[Forester]

I don't believe that the idea put forth in the first thread was intended in any way to pull support away from groups like the NRA/ILA, GOA etc. The intention was to be yet another front in this fight for our Second amendment rights.

I am an NRA member, I do more than just send in my $$ each year. My question is why are so many people against having an additional, rapid response tool at our disposal?

The NRA frequently asks us to "call or write your congressman” The primary function of this new tool would making millions of forum users aware of a cause we need to get behind quickly. In other words the action and goals run parallel to those of the NRA but the response is quicker. In reality this could even save the NRA money to allow them to fight the bigger battles by killing some bills before they get legs under them and before the NRA is able to mobilize to fight against them.

It seems some are. I however am not a big fan of putting all my eggs in one basket in something as important as this.

[sundog]

I'm getting ready to send NRA my membership upgrade to Benefactor. Are they the best game in town. Yup. Do I (and apparently lots of y'all) agree with everything they do? No. They're still the best game in town. Even if you are a single venue individual, regardless of what it is, you still need to have an NRA membership. Numbers. Sign up for the NRA-ILA briefs via email - they're timely and good reading. NRA-ILA is one of the very best things we have going for us. They lobby, and THAT friends, is the name of the game. They (or NRA itself) can file friends of the court briefs. They provide legal assistance in some cases. The NRA has education programs. Can you do all that? They provide a means of having CERTIFIED Instructors. Whether anyone likes it, they are the 'goto' organization. That's EXACTLY why the libs don't like them. They are in the way, a road block. And that's exactly why we need to support that organization, the NRA. If you want to do more, then join GOA, Jews for Preservation of 2nd Amend, the Attny group outta Arizona(??), etc.

One more thing, so that everyone is on the same page. You've gotta read the DOJ opinion on the Second Amendment. Yea, it's a long read, but necessary.

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.pdf

BTW, I also belong to my state association.

The sad part of all this is that what we see so clearly, and I spent 26 years of my life defending (if you don't think this is personal, guess again), we have to expend our own massive resources to protect. Those trying to change it should simply be tried for treason. I guess that makes me a constitutionalist.

I'll say it again, THEY want a Ruling (and privileged) class. THEY want a Working class (subjects) to fuel it. And THEY want a Warrior class to protect it (that is protect THEM from US). That's what this is all about. Radical left wing libs are a serious threat. As far as I'm concerned NFA34 and CGA68 are unconstitutional. Both were political, knee jerk reactions to organized crime and political assinations. Do they stop crime? No. All they do is restrict a right specifically delineated in the U.S. Constitution.

I'm hoping this latest blood letting over Jim Zumbo has some good in it. That would be that there is still a bunch of CITIZENS (OWNERS of our great country) that made their voices heard. Kinda a shot heard around the world. I wonder if any congress critters were within earshot? sundog

[montana_charlie]

When I posted earlier, it was not my intent to start (or continue) a discussion on the merits of the NRA.
Rather, it was to suggest that the NRA might be the entity that can provide the venue for the group in the thread at Guns Net...the group that wants to pull all of us into a cohesive 'internet population' which (then) can be pointed at any given 'problem' which arises.

Shooting from the hip, 'the population' took down Zumbo.
With aimed fire it might be possible to attrit larger targets.
(And this analogy has nothing to do with actually shooting anything, or any one.)
CM

[sundog]

CM, an internet clearing house is not a bad idea. It's quite probable that the major organizations such as NRA, GOA, etal, will not sponsor or participate. Plausible deniablilty. Is that the right term? I'll guarantee they know what's been going on though. News travels faster now than ever, so I'm not entierly convinced that a centralized town meeting is really necessary, but I'm not right about some things. About the Second Amendment, I am right. Just not right about some other things ocassionally. Doesn't happen often, but hey, so much for humanity. But who am I to stop something like this if others want to. Not me. Freedom of Speech is a wonderful thing. Gee, isn't that in ONE of the other amendments? Hmmm. A venue of that sort would certainly spur folks early on to activate (or is the better term agitate). Either way, good, it makes the libs, socialists, and commies very uncomfortable.

[leftiye]

Montana Charlie, I sent an email to the NRA a few days ago to that same effect, they are the ones who are in the best position to steer this internet based wielding of political power. No answer, I've never yet recieved an answer from the NRA on any subject (so I seldom waste my time).

In another thread about the NRA yearly convention another board member wrote about how he once attended one of them. He was acquainted with someone on the NRA governing board who told him (to paraphrase to the best of my memory) not to expect to really see any NRA business conducted because "they" the governing board did not want to be impeded in having things their way by the membership. Jibes with my experince. Oh my gob, that was you Charlie!

When the ILA was first formed, I got really excited. Not too much later, they castrated it by firing (maybe not literally) Neal Knox. I got the impression they thought he was too serious about being effective, and maybe too savvy. Didn't help my attitude towards them much.

I didn't bring this up to hammer the NRA. However, in my opinion, they'll never be as effective as they need to be with this attitude - like our government's- that we are a nuisance that they wish would leave them alone, and let them do things their way.

They are THE BEST EXISTING GROUP TO SPEARHEAD THIS EFFORT, but they could do SO much better. Maybe the first move should be to zumbo them (on THEIR website), and modify THEIR constitution, or operating rules so that they (just like our government) serve us, and not themselves.

[carpetman]

I've mentioned this before. Sometimes we hear of the military vote. Military vote is all but an oxymoron. Very,embarassingly small percentage of military vote. It is more common to see memory foam with amnesia. For this reason,military is an easy target by the politicians. Easy to make cuts amongst a passive group. So many organizations sprang up to be a voice for the military. They have one common goal---send us your money. There are humpteen of em---NCOA, Air Force Sgts assn, you name it. It waters things down is what it does. Think there is a chance of these groups uniting? Not one bit---would cost someone a big$$$$$ fat cat job. Would the Teamsters be strong if you had Pipe Haulers,Peterbilt Drivers,Dump Truckers and dozens more? Would weaken it to about nothing which is what the military organizations are. The NRA has some folks making some big bucks and to continue making those big bucks is the primary goal. Don't believe that? Tell me what they have done about the 1968 GCA.

[leftiye]

Carpet man, Yes, I understand your point. AND I agree that the fatcats at NRA won't like it. We need to ask them which they prefer- to get busy or to get gone?

That's their Achilles heel. Money, just like everyone else.

[carpetman]

leftyie--You understand my point. What did Dr Phil have to say about that? Oh BTW thanks for the huge donation to Carpetmans 2nd Protection. Not only thanks to leftyie but to all the many many others that have been sending in--keep it coming.