lee 452-200-swc

[emorris]

I got my new lee 452-200-swc mold in today for my 45acp and after a cleaning I put it to use. I casted and lubed approx 180 boolits. I really like the mold as the bullets drop freely and believe it or not the very first boolit was a keeper. I am loading them for my 1911 and I cant get the col dialed in. I tried a COL that varied from 1.253 to 1.212. The longer would not fully chamber and I got down to a col of 1.228 before it would chamber but the front driving band had marks as though it contacted the rifling to a col of around 1.222. Anything shorter than a col of 1.228 and the nose of the boolit started getting dented and at 1.212 the round would not cycle into the chamber. I was just trying to get an idea of what others have been running this boolit at.

[Bushrat]

My pistol likes that bullet at 1.25 but will feed them at 1.24. Most seat until there it just a fingernail of drving band showing, hope this helps.

[Roundnoser]

I have never measured the COL in my 45's. As Bushrat stated, I leave approx. a fingernail's thickness of the driving band above the case mouth. Since I use mix brass, the COL would vary just a little, but doesn't affect the accuracy for my purposes (IDPA, target practice, etc.)

[BlueSmoke]

I run that same bullet @ 1.24.

My favored load combo with that bullet is BAC lube and Clays powder.

Regards,

BlueSmoke

[AndyC]

Many people, including me, have had problems with the length of that very same Lee boolit.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/414/lymanvslee.jpg

I had to drive mine into the case to COL 1.230" - right at the shoulder of the bullet, not even a hair sticking above - before it would feed, and even then it was never 100%.

it seems to be that the Lee 200gr SWC bullet prefers 2 things (in my specific 1911, at least):

1. A magazine with an early release-point and
2. Loaded deep into the case and (very slightly) roll-crimped - zero shoulder showing.

Lucked into a buddy who wanted a Lee 6-banger more than his original 2-cavity H&G 68, so we traded. Below you see the Lee on the left with a small meplat versus the true H&G 68 on the right:

http://i51.tinypic.com/29prrc0.jpg

[williamwaco]

I got my new lee 452-200-swc mold in today for my 45acp and after a cleaning I put it to use. I casted and lubed approx 180 boolits. I really like the mold as the bullets drop freely and believe it or not the very first boolit was a keeper. I am loading them for my 1911 and I cant get the col dialed in. I tried a COL that varied from 1.253 to 1.212. The longer would not fully chamber and I got down to a col of 1.228 before it would chamber but the front driving band had marks as though it contacted the rifling to a col of around 1.222. Anything shorter than a col of 1.228 and the nose of the boolit started getting dented and at 1.212 the round would not cycle into the chamber. I was just trying to get an idea of what others have been running this boolit at.



I own that mold and I really like it.

May I suggest that you put the caliper away and forget about COL.

You don't really care how long the cartridge is, all you care about is that it feeds and locks into battery reliably.

At some point it will not feed. That is too short.

At some point the front driving band will engage the rifling too hard and the slide will not close reliably. That is too long.

Field strip your .45 and use the barrel as a gage. Start with a bullet seated with most of the driving band out of the mouth. It will not slide into the chamber completely under its own weight. This is too long.

Now screw the seating die stem in one half turn at a time and re-try that bullet in your chamber until the cartridge falls easily and fully into the chamber under its own weight ( do not push it ). ( I do this with an unprimed and uncharged case.)

Now lock the seating stem, load about two mags full and see if they feed reliably. If they do, you are finished. Take the empty unprimed cartridge you used as a gage and store it in your die box with the dies and use it in the future for adjusting the die after you have changed it for another bullet.





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[gasboffer]

What WilliamWaco said..... Except some guns will not feed semi-wadcutters, no matter what you do.

[Moonie]

My Taurus PT1911 loves this boolit with just a fingernail of shoulder.

[Jammer Six]

Take the empty unprimed cartridge you used as a gage and store it in your die box with the dies and use it in the future for adjusting the die after you have changed it for another bullet.
I'm going to try your method, even though I've always thought that, (according to The ABCs of Reloading) you were "supposed" to load SWCs so that the shoulder was very close to the case mouth.

My question here is this: how do you use a dummy round to set the die?

I use a Square Deal B, if that changes anything.

It seems to me that if I take my gauge dummy, set it in the machine, and throw the handle, the die is going to set the dummy, not the other way around.

(I'm a new reloader, I've only been reloading since about 06, and I have a tendency to take the ABCs as gospel, because I don't know any better. So that's why I'm asking.)

[Jammer Six]

Well, I tried this method of setting the length with SWC, I have 200 SWC from Berry's Bullets.

So please excuse the plating.

38599

38598

These shots are my attempt to show a round, flat spot that was generated when the dummy was chambered once.

It's on the shoulder of the bullet, directly above the center of the fingernail.

Is this not the reason that SWCs should be set as low as possible?

Would not this ding severely hamper the accuracy of this round?

This round is quite long, but it met all the tests-- in hand cycling, it would chamber every time.

So my questions are simply the result of seeing the ding-- this can't be what we are striving for.

What am I doing wrong?

[Dale53]

jammersix;
I believe in headspacing on the bullet when using cast bullets. This illustrates it better than I can explain:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/1911Headspace.png

Just remove the barrel from your 1911 and use it as a case gage.

It IS extremely important to seat the bullet in one operation and taper crimp in a separate operation. Otherwise, if the bullet is seated while crimping (all in one operation) it can push lead ahead of the case edge causing distortion of case and bullet (shaving of the bullet).

Dale53

[rintinglen]

To set the head space using a dummy round is actually quite easy. Understand that the crimp (body) portion of the die will be the same regardless of the boolit being loaded. It gages off the case length in relation to the peak height of the shellholder. So on the body,I use a lock ring with a set screw and set the ring so that, when the die body is fully screwed in, the die will be at the desired location to crimp the case.
Now all that you do is back off the ball seater stem until you are sure it won't touch the dummy round, throw the handle to drive the dummy into the die and then turn the bullet seater stem down by hand until it touches the dummy round. Then tighten the lock ring on the boolit seater and you are good to go.

[williamwaco]

To set the head space using a dummy round is actually quite easy. Understand that the crimp (body) portion of the die will be the same regardless of the boolit being loaded. It gages off the case length in relation to the peak height of the shellholder. So on the body,I use a lock ring with a set screw and set the ring so that, when the die body is fully screwed in, the die will be at the desired location to crimp the case.
Now all that you do is back off the ball seater stem until you are sure it won't touch the dummy round, throw the handle to drive the dummy into the die and then turn the bullet seater stem down by hand until it touches the dummy round. Then tighten the lock ring on the boolit seater and you are good to go.

That is EXACTLY the way I do it.

Once the lock ring is set to crimp properly, you never change it again for that cartridge. To change bullets, all you need to change is the seating stem.



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[mpmarty]

I never crimp in the seater die. I use a backed off seater to seat and then go to a crimp die to do the final taper crimp.

[Jammer Six]

Okay, let's see.

This is a fascinating thread.

Point one, no, I'm not crimping in the same die-- the Square Deal has four stations, the third of which seats the bullet and the fourth of which crimps.

Point two, Square Deals don't appear to have a lock ring on the die that sets the bullet. Neither does it appear to have a bullet seater stem. The die that sets the bullet is all one piece, and I believe that what holds it at the proper place is a blue piece of plastic sandwiched between the shellholder and the head of the machine.

Point three, how do you tell when this die (or your stem) "just touches" the dummy bullet? I'm starting to think I missed part of my reloader's education by starting with a Square Deal.

Point four is complicated.

Dale53, thank you for the pictures. My rounds look like the one on the far left, because if they are any longer, they won't extract. That is, if one chambers the dummy round that is set to the length the picture shows as correct, it will chamber and the weapon will lock up.

All good. Except then you have to diassemble the weapon to get the dummy round out of the chamber, because it's set at something like 1.330, and it won't fit through the port-- it jams the weapon wide open against the ejector without being able to clear the front of the ejection port.

I note that specs for a 1911 want a round to be somewhere around 1.250, and going long enough for my rounds to look like the rounds this picture calls correct make them out about 1.320.

I also note that a live round loaded to this dimension would appear to function just fine-- it would chamber and fire, and then the brass would merrily eject.

But it wouldn't be right, because the weapon wouldn't eject a loaded round.

And point five-- are we simply ignoring the damage setting a SWC to this length does to the bullet? Are we happy with chambering and firing?

Are we simply not going to look at the chambered bullet, and be happy as long as it goes down range, and forget about the increase in accuracy we could achieve by avoiding damage to the bullet as it chambers?

Edit to add P.S.:

OH, OH, OH, I SEE!

You turn the stem down WHILE THE DIE IS RAISED!

My wife says I'm getting obsessive about this, and thinking about it day and night. I say she doesn't understand reloading and reloaders.

[DLCTEX]

I would not be happy with that ding in the boolit. I would either seat the boolit deep enough to eliminate it, or find what on the gun was doing the damage and see if it can't be altered.

[pergoman]

As far as reliable feeding goes, you have to try different mags which have different lips. etc.
A Wilson, McCormick, Checkmate,original design GI, etc. will behave very differently with some bullets. Find the mags that work for your loads with each individual gun. Recoil springs weights are another possible issue to consider.

[Jammer Six]

Okay, I did some more experimenting.

I haven't tried any of my lead boolits yet, but I'm sure that the information will probably transfer, because of the delicate, sharp shoulder on SWCs.

The first thing I did was to try to figure out what was causing the flat spot. I believe I did that.

I loaded the dummy in a magazine, and marked the top (that is, straight up relative to the magazine) with a felt pen.

The flat spot came out right on top of the mark, every time. From this, I conclude that it is the shoulder of the bullet hitting the top of the chamber, and, therefore, nothing can be done to the weapon to "correct" this. I need the top of my chamber.

I started shortening the loaded dummy, using Walt's half turn at a time method.

The flat spot got smaller and smaller, and finally went away when the COL was set at 1.187.

I note two things: one, this is shorter than both SAMMI for the 1911, (1.250) and the Hornady manual (1.200) and two, it leaves a small shoulder of the round exposed. It's a lot more than a fingernail wide, unless you're a T. Rex, but it's a lot shorter than a round nose would be.

Now the question is whether these short little beasts will chamber when firing.

To that end, I've loaded 50 rounds at 1.187 ± 007, and am going to the range tomorrow morning.

[mroliver77]

I went to using Surplus Nam era GI mags and feeding is smooth and trouble free in my 1911's. with the H&G #68. The mags that came with my Colt 1991A1 Appear to be the same design and work well. Some 8 rnd Colt mags feed pretty close and the Chip McCork I would not trust my life to.

The contact points of the Lee boolit are not the same as the #68 or the Lyman 452630.

I don't know whats up with Jammers gun but something is not kosher. Then again maybe I am so used to MY guns feeding SWC that I forget the 1911 was designed for use with RN bullets.

[AndyC]

The flat spot came out right on top of the mark, every time. From this, I conclude that it is the shoulder of the bullet hitting the top of the chamber, and, therefore, nothing can be done to the weapon to "correct" this. I need the top of my chamber.
It does hit the top of the chamber first - that's why some 1911 barrels have a relief cut under the barrel hood, so that the shoulder doesn't get caught there. Only thing you can really do is polish the top inside of the chamber with something like Flitz.


I note two things: one, this is shorter than both SAMMI for the 1911, (1.250) and the Hornady manual (1.200) and two, it leaves a small shoulder of the round exposed. It's a lot more than a fingernail wide, unless you're a T. Rex, but it's a lot shorter than a round nose would be.

Now the question is whether these short little beasts will chamber when firing.
Told ya. I wasn't willing to drive the shoulder lower than the case-rim and, while it fed better when the COL was that short, it was never 100%. Good luck with yours, though.

[garym1a2]

This Lee Boolit works and feeds very well in my kimber with Wilson mags.

As far as reliable feeding goes, you have to try different mags which have different lips. etc.
A Wilson, McCormick, Checkmate,original design GI, etc. will behave very differently with some bullets. Find the mags that work for your loads with each individual gun. Recoil springs weights are another possible issue to consider.

[Jammer Six]

jammersix;
I believe in headspacing on the bullet when using cast bullets. This illustrates it better than I can explain:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/1911Headspace.png
Okay, I did a series of tests tonight with both my milspecs.

Trying to get a jacketed semi wadcutter to sit level with the end of the barrel hood, I started way long, then marched inward.

My rounds had to be 1.33 to match the barrel hood.

That wouldn't even chamber, let alone eject.

The round had to be 1.295 to chamber, (which is still way over spec) and then it wouldn't eject.

To act properly, it had to be 1.285, which is still over spec. At that length, it didn't come close to reaching the barrel head.

Either both my milspecs have chambers that are way, way too long, I'm doing something wrong, or this method of setting length is for the birds.

[garym1a2]

I wish I read this post before I start loading my 1911 a couple years ago. These pictures are great.With a little work these bullets can feed 100% with good accuracy.


jammersix;
I believe in headspacing on the bullet when using cast bullets. This illustrates it better than I can explain:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/1911Headspace.png

Just remove the barrel from your 1911 and use it as a case gage.

It IS extremely important to seat the bullet in one operation and taper crimp in a separate operation. Otherwise, if the bullet is seated while crimping (all in one operation) it can push lead ahead of the case edge causing distortion of case and bullet (shaving of the bullet).

Dale53

[gefiltephish]

This bullet doesn't feed in my RIA's or my brothers Kimber. The meplat is too narrow and as a previous poster pointed out, the nose a bit long. H&G 68's work great though.

I determine oal by doing the drop test in the barrel. Start out a bit long and seat the bullet a bit deeper each time until it just produces a distinct "thunk". When the barrel is then tipped muzzle up, the cartridge should drop out on it's own.

Maybe I missed it, but what diameter are your bullets? I can't chamber anything over .452.

Based on the OP's last post, I would suggest having a well experienced 1911 smith check out the barrel/chamber dimensions.

[tomme boy]

Jammer, do these actually fit in your mag??? Seat them to 1.26" and see if they cycle. Also, what is your crimp diameter? Check it right at the edge of the brass were it meats the lead. I like to crimp mine at .471" In your pics it looks like you are doing a roll crimp. You do not want that on a 45 acp. All you want is to take out the flair. The 45acp headspaces on the rim of the case.

[Mohavedog]

Tomme Boy beat me to what I think your problem may be. You are noticeably overcrimping your case mouth. What may be the issue is that your cartridge is not headspacing on the case mouth properly but sliding down inside the chamber ledge that the case mouth is supposed to chamber on. What is the length of the empty case, it could have been shortened too much at some point. Take a empty sized case and drop it into the barrel chamber. Does it fit properly? After seating the boolit you only want enough taper crimp to take out the boolit seating flare. Also, don't over-champher the case mouth, you want a nice flat cartidge mouth not a sharp cookie cutter. Gook luck, Dog

[hedgehorn]

I have the Lee mold that is a clone to the H-G 68 and it feeds in my kimbers as well as my cz97bd. It will not feed in my XD.. Dents the magazines when the spent case comes back and hits the shoulder of the boolit. :(

[Jammer Six]

I started off with no measurable crimp, then went to .470-.473 (about) when chambering the first two buried them back in the brass. (I'm running these tests with dummies.)

Then I started checking COL after the test, and found that each time a round chambered, it was loosing .005-.007. So I started tightening down on the crimp to try to stop that.

I never did get it stopped, but that's what you're looking at. I don't crimp loaded cartridges any more than necessary.

Yes, my magazines will take up to about 1.340. But they won't feed.

[Doble Troble]

I had occasional feeding trouble with the 200 gr Lee SWC in a gun with a match barrel. Once I started sizing to 0.451 instead of 0.452 my problems went away. I seat the the bullet shoulder flush with the case mouth - a thumbnail out will prevent lock-up in this tight barrel.

[Blackwater]

You've gotten some excellent info and advice above. All I can add is that one more reason for crimping AFTER seating the bullet to proper OAL is that if your die squeezes the slight taper crimp as the bullet is still sliding down into the case, the case mouth can and often will roll up a teensy little ring of lead just in front of the case mouth, and THAT will keep the case from entering fully into the chamber. I tried for many years to seat and crimp in a single step to save time, but ALWAYS relegated these to my plinking and target loads. However, after commonly winding up violiting this, my own rule, and carrying my "seconds" only for target work, I'd wind up having to carry them sometimes for self protection. Knowing this ain't too good an idea, I finally threw in the towel and seat & crimp in separate tests. Since then, I can't recall a single failure to feed once I've established proper OAL for good feeding. That taught me a lesson that .... so far ..... I haven't forgotten. Just glad I got away with my hurried loads for as long as I did.

[tomme boy]

Jammer, what gun is this for? Like I said above, Seat the bullet at 1.26" and the crimp at .470". The 45acp does not have a crimp in it. All you are doing is removing the bell that you made when you expanded the case to get a bullet in the case. A lot depends on your chamber of your gun as to how much "crimp" you are using. Most seem to be around .470"- .472". Your expander diameter is what controls what the tension of the case has on the bullet. If you over flair the case, you can actually lose the tension needed to hold the bullet.