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View Full Version : Sledgehammer *style* Boolits



jdgabbard
12-12-2011, 06:24 PM
Who has experience with them? We all know that large metlaps are where the money is, so what say you? Are they worth the extra weight in lead?

Specifically I'm talking about in the .38/.357, 44 and 45 caliber revolver cartridges. 38/357 in the 180-190 area, all with 85-95% metlap in either a SWC or TC design.

PacMan
12-12-2011, 07:29 PM
May be wrong but i would think that you will have to go to a WFN design to get 85-95%.

jdgabbard
12-12-2011, 08:01 PM
It can be done.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=223&pictureid=4633

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=223&pictureid=4632

Note that the image didnt come out to well. However if you plug the info into the software on the Mountain Molds site, you'll see it's perfectly doable. These are just copies of the concept, there are molds that are produced similar to this.

jandbn
12-12-2011, 08:33 PM
Not a Sledgehammer, but Veral Smith makes his WFN molds with a meplat .090 smaller than the boolit.

Quote from Veral on GBO (http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,222266.0.html): The WFN meplat is .090 smaller than body diameter while the LFN meplat is .125 smaller than body diameter.

So a .452 WFN's meplat of Veral's design is 80%. Much larger of a meplat and the long range stability (depending on velocity) even with the WFN, might cause accuracy to go south. Short range and big meplats make nice hammers. Some here (44man for one) say that if the velocity is too fast, even a boolit with a big meplat won't behave like a person would expect at lower velocity.

If it were me, I would keep the meplat to Elmer and Veral size to make it usable for both short and long range. With a "sledgehammer", I think it would be a specialty type boolit to be used only for short range.

Bwana
12-13-2011, 02:21 AM
I modified a Lee two cavity 44 240 Rn about 30 years ago using a .421" drill bit for one resulting in a 295 gr conical point and a .421" end mill on the other resulting in a 340 gr flat point. Both did extremely well in both of my DW 44Mags. I still have that modified mold.
When cast out of not quite pure lead they expanded very well.

feets
12-13-2011, 11:32 PM
These tend to fly pretty straight but I haven't poked 'em through anything warm and furry yet.

Ignore the one on the left. I was playing with my drill bits.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/378575_312373992115005_100000272212256_1226431_146 7648490_n.jpg

selmerfan
12-14-2011, 12:42 PM
I know that Ranch Dog's 359-190-RF and the Lyman 358627 are hell on deer out of a .357 Maximum.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
12-15-2011, 01:35 PM
I believe it is in some of Veral's writtings (LBT) where it is said that the true Wadcutter boolit profile is top of the heap in game taking ability.

The fly in the ointments is a wad cutter does not stabilize beyond typical handgun target distances.

Veral also says the semi-wad cutter, inspite of it's nice hole cutting ability in paper, DOES NOT cut a full dia. hole in tissue.

The reason being that there is a slip stream of tissue that forms in a "V" shaped cone back from the semi-wad cutter meplat, which in turn causes the tissue to be forced away from the boolit and prevents the sharp semi-wad cutter shoulder from even touching tissue, let along cutting a full dia hole.

This is the reason for the LFN & WFN boolit profiles as it brings usable stability to a boolit with a larger meplat then that seen on semi- wad cutter boolit profiles.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

jdgabbard
12-15-2011, 04:52 PM
Feets, thats pretty darn close to the ones I've seen. Selmerfan, I have the RD-190g, and you're right it's a heck of a boolit. But just like most, I like having more than just one mold ;)

Most of the ones I've seen are actually a SWC, but with a 85-95% metlap. They are essentially a near full diameter wadcutter, but I gues just enough of a taper from metlap to shoulder to give a lil bit of accuracy.

PacMan
12-17-2011, 07:44 PM
Here is another option frm LBT. This is a 150gr .358 OWC. Sorry for the **** pictures but i will try and take better ones tomorrow.
Hard to measure the meplat but real close to .330.Have had good luck with it in my GP100 and just started working with it in my Marlin 1894. I was suprized but it functions like it was designed for the Marlin.
Plan to use it as a small game bullet in the Marlin.

1Shirt
12-23-2011, 12:02 PM
Big, wide, flat for short range makes sense as game stopper. Under 100, preferably under 50 due to vol decrease and the factor of stabalization beyond X range what ever that may be.
1Shirt!:coffee:

BOOM BOOM
12-23-2011, 02:06 PM
HI,
The boolit does not need to be 80-90% medplat to work well on game.
The Lyman Kieth style will work. Done it to deer at least 4 times myself. Way less than 80% medplat.
A 70%+/- medplat also works well & can be easier to get to shoot accurately.
Also bullet placement is even more important.:Fire::Fire:

HollowPoint
12-23-2011, 02:50 PM
Whenever I read topics like this I get the feeling that the consensus is that your bullet selection boils down to two choices that make you have to choose between the "Sledge-Hammer" effect we want or the longer range accuracy we dream of. (100 yards or more)

With the right alloy it is possible to get both when using a cast bullet with a profile that's a little more streamlined. It's just a matter of adding a shallow Cup-Point indention on the nose of the bullet. This shallow Cup-Point helps initiate expansion while still allowing the bullet's profile and aerodynamics to be more conducive to long range in-flight stability and accuracy.

Your alloy and the depth of your Cup-Point indention dictates the amount of expansion you get. It takes a little experimenting to get the performance you want but, isn't that what we're all about; experimenting?

Of course, if it's strictly short range hunting (50 yards or so) it's hard to beat any of the bullets mentioned already.

HollowPoint

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
12-23-2011, 04:22 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ------

With the proper WFN boolit profile, there are no long range problems, and truely no need for ANY expansion. Zero - zip - none.

After seeing the results of the WFN boolit on game, I'd have to say that if anything, an expanding cast boolit would be overly distructive.

Being a many years hunter/reloader with jacketed/expanding bullets, I guess I was maybe overly trusting when I bought into the results claimed with the WFN boolits.

However, after seeing the first hand results on 3 deer and 1 elk, the claims were, if anything, understated.

There is no need for expansion with the correct boolit profile.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

bearcove
12-23-2011, 06:18 PM
358432 is my 38 load. 160gr wadcutter with crimp groove toward middle of boolit. Don't see a need to go heavier in 38's

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
12-23-2011, 06:48 PM
Bearcove,

Vearl Smith - LBT - says the wadcutter is about the best shape for taking critters, but that it has stabalization problems at anything much beyond typical handgun bullseye target distances.

We are not talking "semi-wadcutter" boolit shape/design/profile here.

So, apparently that is why the WFN/LFN boolits were designed.

They give as much flat frontal area as is reasonably possible while not having the issues of stability common with the full wadcutter.

SO, If your boolit is providing the stability you need for the distances shot, Great! Go for it! That big flat nose does the job.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

bearcove
12-23-2011, 07:04 PM
Look up 358432 on castpics.

Then get back to me.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
12-23-2011, 08:24 PM
Bearcove,

Help me out here.

I have chased around looking for something that might take me to cast pics 358432, and can't find it.

What do I look for and where???????

I have never gone to that part of the forum I guess. :confused:

CDOC

bearcove
12-23-2011, 08:31 PM
Go down and find CASTPICS Icon at bottom of page.

Click on Castpics

Research

Bottom line has historic molds goto lyman 1950's

Don't get lost in there.

BOOM BOOM
12-23-2011, 08:35 PM
HI,
VERAL SMITH ACTUALLY SAYS IN HIS LITTLE BOOK, he designed the LFN to get better accuracy at longer ranges , & it does better at longer range than the WFN.

CHECK OUT DESIGNS BY:
LBT,
RANCH DOG,
GATES EXTREME MEDPLAT,
DIXIE SLUGS,

All are proven game getters. But there are others, and the Kieth style still works.

bearcove
12-23-2011, 08:36 PM
reference not research. sorry, I think, its from memory

bearcove
12-23-2011, 08:42 PM
Veral is a nice guy but a Wadcutter is a wadcutter it is the original WFN If you want to feel that your wadciutter is better because it has a cooler name thats GREAT!!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
12-23-2011, 09:20 PM
Thanks Bearcove, Ya helped me check out a section I have never looked at.

Yes, your 358432 would be what I would call a typical wadcutter style. I have seen some with even a flatter nose, but seems many had the little dome such as the one you reference.

This would be the type that Veral's writings indicate have stabalization issues at distances much beyond handgun bullseye target ranges.

Veral does indicate however, that this boolit profile is about as good as it gets for taking game.

The WFN/LFN are a compromise when compaired to the true wadcutter, but a compromise with the goal of a boolit that will fly true to extended ranges.

I have never put a true wadcutter into a deer or elk, and likely will not, but I am truely amaized at the effectiveness of the WFN in both of those eat'in sized critters.

The "semi-wadcutter" that many of us shoot in our handguns, I have them for both the .357 & .44, is designed to be more stable then the full wadcutter, and some think that on game it will cut a full caliber hole through the critter.

Not so, according to Veral. His writtings indicate that there is a "V" shaped slip stream back from the nose of the semi-wadcutter that forces tissue away from the full caliber shoulder of the Semi-wadcutter. His claim is that once the boolit passes through, the tissue/wound channel closes up to not much larger then the size of the Semi-wadcutter nose.

After what I have seen with the WFN, I think there is a good possibility that the wound channel does stay a bit larger then that, and base my thoughts on the size of the wound channel created by the WFN.

However, the point is that the larger the meplat on a game hunting boolit, the better and more effective the would channel will be.

I would guess that the only way to know for sure what effective range your 358432 has, as far as stabized flight, would be to test it.

Then, most wadcutters, at least commercial offerings, were fairly soft and therefore, less then ideal for hunting deer sized game.

Thanks again for the tip!

Keep em coming!

CRusty Deary Ol'Coot

bearcove
12-23-2011, 09:38 PM
I think the only difference is range of the shot. That may be why a LFN or SWC is more popular. If you come on that 125yd shot the WFN or WC type might cause a fellow to question if he could place an effective shot.

A more pointed boolit would be less effecive terminally speaking but more likely to hit where intended. That is the most important part of terminal perfomance.

SO, is it SD or a hunting round. For self defense a wadcutter might be the full WFN.

bearcove
12-23-2011, 09:39 PM
I don't hunt with my 38.

HollowPoint
12-25-2011, 12:03 PM
I'm afraid that within the context of this particular thread and this particular subject the words, "Initiate Expansion" in reference to my previous post, conjures up images of the Mushrooming effect of traditional hollow point bullets; which also conjures up images of poor penetration and the like.

The "Cup-Point" cast bullets I eluded to earlier are just that; a small indention on the nose of your cast bullet that forms a shallow cup. It can be formed so as to expand to the diameter of your WNFP, RNFP or full wad-cutter on impact.

In effect, when the right cup-depth and alloy is arrived at, it will give you the "Sledge-Hammer" performance the OP inquired about while still retaining better exterior ballistics than the other cast bullets mentioned here.

I guess when all is said and done, it all boils down to personal preference. If it works for you, go for it. Good shooting gentlemen; and Merry Christmas to you all.

HollowPoint