go buy another GLOCK!!!!!!!!!! see who you support! [Archive]

9.3X62AL

02-25-2007, 12:29 PM

Thanks for passing that article along, Lloyd. Until I read its content, I did not know that Steyr had been sanctioned by the USA--which explains why those products have been scarce here, just like Cuban cigars.

To say that I am disappointed in the nation of Austria is putting it mildly. I bought my first Glock a few months ago, and now regret having sent my money in that direction. It's a fine pistol, but there are lots of fine 45 ACP's out there. Glock kind of has us over a barrel, in that factory support for the many thousands of Glock pistols in government service in this country could be compromised if the company was sanctioned in the same way Steyr got spanked. Moral of the story--equip your using services with home-grown weaponry--although how that relates to Colt and Winchester invites a whole new set of questions.

floodgate

02-25-2007, 01:16 PM

robertbank:

Yes they WERE. Austria had a strong Nazi party in the mid-1930s and linked up with Germany in the "Anschluss" [= Annexation] of 1938 with considerable enthusiasm, after assassinating the more-or-less liberal Premier Dollfuss. They were rewarded with a good chunk of Czechoslovakia, and fought side-by-side with the Germans through WW II. Remember the big flap when their postwar Premier, Kurt Waldheim was "outed" as haveing served in the SS? See any WW II history for further details (or hit "Anschluss" on Google or Wikipedia).

floodgate

robertbank

02-25-2007, 02:44 PM

"Yes they WERE. Austria had a strong Nazi party in the mid-1930s and linked up with Germany in the "Anschluss" [= Annexation] of 1938 with considerable enthusiasm, after assassinating the more-or-less liberal Premier Dollfuss"

I don't doubt the Austrians sympathies lay with Germany at that time but to my knowledge The Commonwealth nor the US ever declared war on Austria. To suggest any of this had much or anything to do with Glock selling pistols to Iran or how it might relate to Austrians not liking a visiting American is a stretch.

Considering the US backed an oppresive Shah regime in Iran, then backed Iraq when Iraq and Iran were at war might explain to some extent Iran's rhetoric towards the US now. That and the fact Iran has major interests in the outcome of events in Iraq once Bush figures out how to declare victory and come home might explain why Bush now wants to make Iran out to be such a bad guy in all of this.

Wait long enough and Iran could become a major ally in fighting whomever some future bad guy happens to be.

Do you think buying Iranian oil supports the regime in Tehran more than selling a few Glock pistols to them?

All this talk of boycotts, gotta hate this guy because.... and that guy because...is getting old.

As it stands right now:

I can't buy Leatherman products because company supports the Democrats. (But I did)

Can't buy S&W products because they support internal gun locks (Own three - they are some of the best crafted
handguns made anywhere on the planet)

Glocks are a no no I guess (Don't like them so that one is easy)
I understand there is an Outdoor Show that is now being black listed by the NRA. (Another easy one for me because the show isn't carried up here).

I am sure there exists an even more extensive list somewhere. Well at least by my count so far I am participating in 50% of the boycotts one way or another.

Al enjoy your Glock. Think of it for standing up to the lunacy of all of this.

Take Care

Bob

Scrounger

02-25-2007, 02:59 PM

Bob, I'm glad to see that you understand ignorance exists on both sides of the political fence. Not using Ebay and PayPal is a fine example. That makes as much sense as refusing to do business with red-headed people or anyone who talks with a southern accent. On the International level, some of these people need to understand that war is the tool of commerce, not the other way around.

Halfbreed

02-25-2007, 04:19 PM

Bob hello, I once thought very highly of a S&W 629 3" 44mag. It was my ccdw weapon. carried it for several years. I had lots of problems with it,
I took it to the gunsmith I bought it from new, then another smith at Gander Mountain, who sent it in to S&W for repairs.
Bottom line, their pistol was not worth crap, and their customer service was worth even less. I will never own another one, and their 4" 500 is really calling me. But I know their service dept is not there to back us up.
Here is a long thread from another forum I use to be on.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,54271.0.html

John

robertbank

02-25-2007, 04:29 PM

I own a M-27 6", K-38 6" and a K22 6" and they are all outstanding. Don't buy them if you don't like them but simply boycotting for political reasons is not all the effective in getting your point across IMHO.

Take Care

Bob

Halfbreed

02-25-2007, 04:38 PM

Bob, I know you did not read my post on the S&W, there was nothing in it about political issues, the pistol was a piece of crap and their customer service was a huge let down. read the article.
John

robertbank

02-25-2007, 04:42 PM

Read my post again. I know your beef was with quality and customer service and that is fair. It is the guys who boycott S&W for political reasons that I don't agree with.

Take Care

Bob

Halfbreed

02-25-2007, 04:49 PM

Bob, my beef truly was about QC and customer service. That is the reason I will never own another. The post is a long read, I really enjoyed that 629, until it became a real headache and was no longer reliable. I was looking for work in the U.P. of Michigan. A few black bears, moose and wolves up there. Not to mention alot of state prisons. I needed a pistol that went bang every time the trigger was squeezed. Sometimes this one would not even rotate the cylinder. ETC.
John

robertbank

02-25-2007, 04:54 PM

I carry a 1911 loaded with 45-08 cartridges for the same reasons you do, except I don't have any prisons to worry about. I am no fan of heavy revolvers for bear defense. OK for hunting but for defensive puposes they are to heavy to carry and to slow to bring into action.

Take Care

Bob

Halfbreed

02-25-2007, 04:58 PM

I shot the 500 S&W enough to know I would like to have one. Taurus keeps saying their 6" 500 will be out "to be announced" if they don't get a move on I am going to have to buy a long bbl. job and cut it down, of course that would blow any warranty too. Or maybe something like a 475 in a dbl action would be nice too
John

floodgate

02-25-2007, 05:18 PM

Bob:

"I don't doubt the Austrians sympathies lay with Germany at that time but to my knowledge The Commonwealth nor the US ever declared war on Austria."

That's because under the "Anschluss", Austria became an integral part of Germany, under German Gauleiter, with no independent government of its own. The US and Commonwealth declarations of war thus DID cover the "former" Austria.

But let's not beat this to death; it's just that I'm something of a history buff, and it all took place within my lifetime memory. And when my Dad, several years later, mentioned having gone into Austria with the U. S. Army in 1944 to a friend with an Austrian wife, I vivdly recall her saying, with a sneer, "Yes, when you 'liberated' us"!

But that's all "water under the dam" (or, is it "water over the bridge"?)

Back to reality.....

Doug

robertbank

02-25-2007, 05:40 PM

My lifetime too. Really a none issue. American troops have got more to worry about in Iraq than a few Glock pistols.

Take Care

Bob

BlackRifleShooter

02-25-2007, 07:47 PM

This story came up on a board I frequent a week or two ago. It was proven false GLOCK did not sell pistols to Iran. They sold them to Iraqi Police. The same police we have been providing Glocks to for a couple years. GLOCK made a good sale Steyr made a bad sell. ANY company supporting our enemies should be boycotted.

And Hello I joined this forum to respond to this post but I have been lurking around here for awhile.

robertbank

02-25-2007, 07:53 PM

Well damm just when I was getting my boycott list up to date. :confused:

Take Care

Bob

Lloyd Smale

02-26-2007, 04:37 AM

thanks for staightening that out. The man who posted it first posted it as a sale to the Iranians and then retracted it and corrected it say it was to iraq. My fault for not updating this post. I still have to wonder how many will end up in the hands of our enemys. The iraq police are underpayed and certainly theres some seedy ones in the bunch. I guess thats nothing you or I can control though. Ill still continue my lifelong boycott of them though. I cant abide by an ugly plastic gun anyway. :)This story came up on a board I frequent a week or two ago. It was proven false GLOCK did not sell pistols to Iran. They sold them to Iraqi Police. The same police we have been providing Glocks to for a couple years. GLOCK made a good sale Steyr made a bad sell. ANY company supporting our enemies should be boycotted.

And Hello I joined this forum to respond to this post but I have been lurking around here for awhile.

Larry Gibson

02-26-2007, 08:13 AM

DeputyAl and I maydisagree on Glocks being butt ugly or not but we certainly agree here. I haven't bought a new S&W for a long time, has nothing to do with politics - has to do with QC and my past experience with the company. It is quite unfortunate that the Armerican Arms industry has gone the way it has. It is their fault AND our fault. Not sure the situation can be turned around.

Larry Gibson

robertbank

02-26-2007, 09:15 AM

"I still have to wonder how many will end up in the hands of our enemys. The iraq police are underpayed and certainly theres some seedy ones in the bunch. I guess thats nothing you or I can control though."

Lloyd I have to say I am disappointed with this statement. Kind of a back handed way of placing some blame on Glock for selling pistols to the Iraqui Police. Very much like the Bush apologists who, despite the fact Bush himself says there were no WMD in Iraq, cling to the notion the
WMD must have been smuggled out of the country to Syria or Iran.

Take Care

Bob

lovedogs

02-26-2007, 09:38 AM

Hey, ya'all... how far do we really need to look to see anti-gun govenments that oppress their citizenry? And when the chips are down, how many of them will vote with the UN to disarm us? Our own, here in the so-called Land of the Free is getting there quickly. We could, at some time soon, be our own worst enemy. But look to the North and the South, also. I mean no insult to those of us shooters who are unfortunate enough to live in Mexico or Canada but aren't they very oppressive? But I notice nobody says or does anything about that. We still eat tortillas and buy lots of Canadian-made products. It really pisses me off every time I see some big game hunt made in Canada on the Outdoor Channel. They are glad to have our money but just try to carry a handgun for protection, either from critters or criminals. Instead of boycotting all the oppressive governments by not spending our money there we all rush over to spend big bucks there.

Call me fanatical but I refuse to patronize any person, government, or business that oppresses me or their own citizens if I can help it. I'm a pro-gun American and make no apologies for it!

Lloyd Smale

02-26-2007, 10:11 AM

nothing backhanded about it. IMO what glock did was wrong for my country. It surely isnt illegal for them to sell to anyone and if this countrys goverment approved of it i think there wrong too. This is my opinion and mine only and last i heard i have a right to my opinion and so do you. If you or anyone else wants to buy a glock buy it. ITS YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO. I personaly think it would take a pretty gullable man to not realize that somehow somewhere these guns wont be used to take an american life and that if every gun manufacture in the world would quit selling weapons to these people and worry more about ending terorism the lining there pockets this would be a better world and i include my own goverment in this statement. Personaly i believe too that though they never found chemical or neucular weapons that they were there and even if in the unlikelyhood that there wasnt these weapons there, the goverment that existed there should have been wiped off the face of this earth for the atrocities it inflicked on the civilians in there own country. We can argue back and forth forever about what was right and what was wrong but like I said were both allowed our opionions and i doubt we are going to change each others mind. Alot of the citizens in this country want us out of there. But ill tell you one fact. I served my country and have a nephew and stepson and brother in law serving it at this very minute and Ive asked them and the soldiers arent the ones that want it ended. They truely believe that there for a good reason as i do. What they fear more then anything is the liberals in this country will ship us out of there with our heads up our buts like they did to us vietnam vets. So i guess we will have to just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Im not a polititian im a shooter and i guess im here to talk about cast bullets not politics so with this ill say goodby to this post."I still have to wonder how many will end up in the hands of our enemys. The iraq police are underpayed and certainly theres some seedy ones in the bunch. I guess thats nothing you or I can control though."

Lloyd I have to say I am disappointed with this statement. Kind of a back handed way of placing some blame on Glock for selling pistols to the Iraqui Police. Very much like the Bush apologists who, despite the fact Bush himself says there were no WMD in Iraq, cling to the notion the
WMD must have been smuggled out of the country to Syria or Iran.

Take Care

Bob

robertbank

02-26-2007, 01:49 PM

Lloyd aren't the Iraqi police on the side of good and isn't the US training them. I believe we even have some RCMP officers over in Jordon working on training the Iraqis. So selling the Iraqi police Glocks should be a good thing not bad.

Lovedog - take a deep breath and ease up on the comments about oppressive governments. Canada is a constitional manarchy with an elected government and a country where the rule of law is deeply engrained. To comment as you have is to know little of this countries history regarding firearms and in particular laws relating to handguns and their use.

There is little in the way of public support for CCW outside the firearms community up here and even there support is fractured. While I would support CCW I have no compelling need for same outside of when I am in the bush and I have a permit that allows for open carry in the bush for protection against wild animals. If and when public support is significant enough to warrant CCW the laws will be changed. Such is the nature of a democracy. Besides I feel perfectly safe walking the streets of my neighbourhood unarmed. The fact that you don't seems to me to speak more about your neighboourhood than mine.

As far as restrictive gun laws are concerned I suspect there are jurisdictions in the US with restrictions far greater than anything we have up here. For that matter when was the last time you bought a firearm through the mails or bought one out of State and had it delivered by mail to your home? Happens all the time up here. (Includes hangdguns)

You get your oppressive government to change that law and I'll start working to change our CCW laws. I suspect we will have about the same amount of sucess.

While you are boycotting this countries products you might want to remember if you live in the Western US you at sometime will certainly turn on your lights in your house with electricity from Canada and fill your car with gasoline from oil exported to you by Canada (We are your largest foreign source of oil ahead of the Middle East and Mexico). Canadians also are the largest consumers of products made in 39 of your States and your largest trading partner by far. Do you really want to go down the road of boycotts? The US is also our largest trading partner and closest ally.

Take Care

Bob

BlackRifleShooter

02-26-2007, 03:33 PM

nothing backhanded about it. IMO what glock did was wrong for my country. It surely isnt illegal for them to sell to anyone and if this countrys goverment approved of it i think there wrong too. This is my opinion and mine only and last i heard i have a right to my opinion and so do you. If you or anyone else wants to buy a glock buy it. ITS YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO. I personaly think it would take a pretty gullable man to not realize that somehow somewhere these guns wont be used to take an american life and that if every gun manufacture in the world would quit selling weapons to these people and worry more about ending terorism the lining there pockets this would be a better world and i include my own goverment in this statement. Personaly i believe too that though they never found chemical or neucular weapons that they were there and even if in the unlikelyhood that there wasnt these weapons there, the goverment that existed there should have been wiped off the face of this earth for the atrocities it inflicked on the civilians in there own country. We can argue back and forth forever about what was right and what was wrong but like I said were both allowed our opionions and i doubt we are going to change each others mind. Alot of the citizens in this country want us out of there. But ill tell you one fact. I served my country and have a nephew and stepson and brother in law serving it at this very minute and Ive asked them and the soldiers arent the ones that want it ended. They truely believe that there for a good reason as i do. What they fear more then anything is the liberals in this country will ship us out of there with our heads up our buts like they did to us vietnam vets. So i guess we will have to just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Im not a polititian im a shooter and i guess im here to talk about cast bullets not politics so with this ill say goodby to this post.

The US Army was already supplying Iraqi police with Glocks for a few years? So is the is what the US Army doing bad for your country to?

DaveInFloweryBranchGA

02-26-2007, 04:57 PM

Glock kind of has us over a barrel, in that factory support for the many thousands of Glock pistols in government service in this country could be compromised if the company was sanctioned in the same way Steyr got spanked. Moral of the story--equip your using services with home-grown weaponry--although how that relates to Colt and Winchester invites a whole new set of questions.

Actually, they don't have us over a barrel. Smith and Wesson proved a while back they could manufacture the Glock and Glock parts. In fact, they did it so well, Glock sued them and won in our courts. That said, with this going on, I see no reason to have them here when S & W can make a Glock just as well as they can.

BTW, it's Iran, not Iraq that is receiving the shipments of Glocks and Sigs.

Just my .02,

Dave

robertbank

02-26-2007, 05:33 PM

Dave I think if you read through this thread you will find a correction to the original story. It is indeed Iraq who got the shipment. Much to do about nothing.

Take Care

Bob

Scrounger

02-26-2007, 05:45 PM

Dave I think if you read through this thread you will find a correction to the original story. It is indeed Iraq who got the shipment. Much to do about nothing.

Take Care

Bob

Does it matter? We're going to have trouble with both these s---holes in years to come. Iraq=Vietnam

9.3X62AL

02-26-2007, 06:11 PM

Canada is a fast friend and comrade-in-arms, and it is the United States that has an on-and-off boycott of Canadian meat products that needs to GO.

We need to be very careful about whose products we "boycott", lest we create a far worse condition than now exists. Canada may be the best friend the United States has in the Western Hemisphere, and their gun laws are a damn sight more lax than California's are--and may be due for further relaxation. I doubt that is the case in the USA.

Trade warfare like boycotts should be surgery, not carpet bombing.

Lloyd Smale

02-26-2007, 06:41 PM

this post sure wasnt started to bash the Canadians. I for one certainly have no problem with canada. Only gripe i have with them is they wont let me hunt with a handgun.

fatnhappy

02-26-2007, 08:11 PM

Don't buy them if you don't like them but simply boycotting for political reasons is not all the effective in getting your point across IMHO.

Take Care

Bob

I believe the folks at S&W or Coors might disagree with your assessment.

BTW, the United States never declared war on Austria. You're right. Nor did we declare war on Germany.

hydraulic

02-26-2007, 08:35 PM

Bush apologists? No one is apologizing.

robertbank

02-26-2007, 08:40 PM

Hi Lloyd - kind of messes with me too but as far as I know, and I no expert on this, I believe Ontario was the last province to allow hundgun hunting and that ended a20 odd years ago. Hunting is provincial jurisdiction not federal. That said if a province were to agree to handgun hunting - about as likely as skinny dipping in the Arctic in January - the federal government would have to amend certain parts of C 68 which I suspect they would do out of courtesy to the province.

fatnhappy - yes you are right Hitler declared war on the U.S. Dec. 11, 1941.

Scrounger - you can say that again and be right twice!

Take Care

Bob

lovedogs

02-26-2007, 09:08 PM

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not bashing Canadians. I have nothing against the PEOPLE. But I do have a problem with ANY government that won't let their citizens own and use any type of firearm they want without restriction. Hey, I'm upset with our own government. All states, in some way or another, infringe on our God-given right to self-defense and RIGHT to keep and bear arms. This isn't a priviledge. It's a right. We should not have to ask anyone for permission or apply for a license or be limited how or where we carry. I believe in punishing and limiting the criminals but not the whole citizenry.

As for feeling safe in our community... well, I live in a rural town of only 400 where we don't worry about crime much. Only one cop. And he's out farming most of the time. People here carry a gun if they feel the need. I carry one all the time when I walk my dog or go out in the hills. We run into many skunks, snakes, badgers, etc. No one here objects. It's appreciated when we do in the pests. And in the hills we have bears and lions so protection is only smart there. I guess I agree with the past Col. Cooper... that if all good people had guns there would soon be no bad people and we'd have less to worry about. Just ask yourself why any government would infringe on your right to keep a gun or carry one. It's all very simple to figure out. I just happen to not like it when someone tells me I can't exercise my right and I say so... loud and clear! If more of us would do so we wouldn't have the problem. We would then, indeed, be free men. Understand this... I love people. But I hate oppressive governments!

Harpman

02-26-2007, 10:50 PM

lets not forget where Communist china gets their money for arms...hell guys america supports so many of our own enemies it isn't funny..this whole world seems really messed up lately....just read today, where the labor at the plant making Boeing parts, (used to be here) are making a whopping 100 dollars a month, (if they get paid that month)....I aint flyin no moe !

Lloyd Smale

02-27-2007, 05:31 AM

Robert why do you think this is? Is there a reason they dont want me to hunt with my handgun or at least what is the reason they give? Do they feel more theatened by a north michingan red neck walking around with a 44 mag ruger then they do with me walking around with a .338 mag? I dont know how your goverment works (i skipped alot of school) but it seems to me you live in a free country too like mine (if this can be considered free anymore) and i have to wonder why after all these years you canandians havent formed something simular to the NRA to fight for your freedom to own and use guns. I grew up on the canadian border for the most part. I spend my childhood in Sault St. Marie MI. and my family acutally came originally from canada and im sure i have many long lost relitives there still. I angers me that it has allways been so hard to cross the borders and that if you cross with a gun and dont have proper permission you are a criminal. Do the goverments think that americans or canadians are going to cross the border and steal snow!! Now with the 911 thing and terorism its even worse and if you dont have a passport. (fancy word for registration) You cant cross at all. Way to much paranoia for me. I can still remember simpler times when my grandpa who was high up in the MI state police would have buissness in Soo canada and would take me along. He crossed over fairly often and knew alot of the guards on the border and would bring care packages of lunch for them my grandma woud make. He would take me with him to work often as my mother had 5 other kids and he would help her out by taking me for a day. We crossed that border quite a few times and he allways had a gun and i dont remember once that he was asked to show it even by the gurads that didnt know him. Most of the time it was just a freindly wave through and theyd stop one out of every 20 cars or so and even then it was just basically a freindly chat and asking where you were going. I still remember too my older cousin once a year would hop in his boat and go up the st. marys river into canada and come back with a load of fireworks for the 4th of july. That was about tradition around there. Now hed probably be stopped and locked up as a terrorist. Want another story? The little town we lived in was mostly catholic and they had a preist that was a character. The little town was pour and during prohibition and the depression the church couldnt support itself so the priest took it on himself to run wiskey from canada to michigan in a boat and sell it to make money for the parish. The law knew it was happening. Hell my grandpa was probably one of his best customers!! But nobody thought he was doing anything but good for the town and he was ignored. Try that now and it would be on the front page of the new york times!! Back then the canadians were considered our next door neighbors and brothers. Now i shake my head when i hear people that almost consider them an enemy and someone to be paranoid of! Hell Robert you wont hear any canadaian bashing from me. For all i know we might be shirt tail relatives. I just wish both goverments would wake up and quit wasting money protecting there borders from each other and spend that money fighting the real enemys of both countrys. (Hi Lloyd - kind of messes with me too but as far as I know, and I no expert on this, I believe Ontario was the last province to allow hundgun hunting and that ended a20 odd years ago. Hunting is provincial jurisdiction not federal. That said if a province were to agree to handgun hunting - about as likely as skinny dipping in the Arctic in January - the federal government would have to amend certain parts of C 68 which I suspect they would do out of courtesy to the province.

fatnhappy - yes you are right Hitler declared war on the U.S. Dec. 11, 1941.

Scrounger - you can say that again and be right twice!

Take Care

Bob

robertbank

02-27-2007, 06:59 AM

Hi Lloyd

Lets start with handgun hunting and probabaly more to the point handguns in general. Handgun hunting was not prevalent in Canada at anytime in our history. Took place in some provinces but was not all that prevalent. Taking of game in the very early days with a handgun likely took place but the rifle as we both know was far more common. Add to that, the fact, the rule of law was established very early in our history particularily out west when the RCMP or rather the NWMP were dispatched in 1873 to establish law and order. This took place before the settlers arrived in any numbers. Without a Civil War or a series of Indian Wars our West was tamed comparably peacefully. This is important to understand if you want to gain some prospective as to why we are where we are today. Layer on the history to today where we have a society, largely urban dwelling where the anti-gun and anti hunting crowd gain most of their support and you have a recipe that is not condosive to liberalizing our hunting laws to include the use of handguns either for hunting or self protection. Will it change over time maybe but it would take a quantum leap in change of attitudes for this to happen.

Most people here and I suspect south of the border have no concept of what a quality handgun set up for hunting is capable of. Most peple I am sure would have the image of somebody out banging around wounding game willy nilly if they gave it much thought at all.

I concur with your views relative to the 49th. It has become a royal PITA. I don't like to point fingers but I suspect your Congress and the Adinistration find it far easier to pretend they are doing something about terrorism then actually adsressing the issue. To admit to the public there really is no effective way of stopping a group from committing randum acts of violence if they are determined is not good optics. Better they spend $500K on nuclear bomb detectors on our border - something I find particularily insulting - then taking a hard look at their foreign policy and ask themselves if it needs tinkering.

On the ground your father's experience was no different than my fathers when it came to crossing the border and as we both know there are hundreds of communties along our border that actually share public services such as fire, ambulance and in some cases medical facilities. Heck. drive into Hyder Alaska and there is no American Border Agents. No place to go and the primary currency in Hyder is the Canadian dollar. No Banks in Hyder so everyone banks on the Canaidan side in Stewert.

Will it change? I fear not. Hillary Clinton falls all over herself to claim Canada is at fault when any cross border issues arise. She claimed, if you remember that all the 911 terrorists entered the US from Canada. While untrue I am sure there are some who still believe it to be true. Could a terrorist enter the US from this country. Sure the could and have. You simply have to put your faith in the CIA and CSIS that they are capable of doing the job to protect us best they can. Beyond that the rest is public relations for political gain IMHO. I am not sure those who jumped on the bandwagon for Passports etc had any real concept of what was at stake in terms of travel and inconvenience to our populations. My sense is there will be changes and in fact some have taken place already. Why a 70 year old couple heading for Florida or a group of aging fisherman from the US headed for some Salmon fishing in Terrace need a passport is beyond me. When both stop making the trip the politicans will change the rules - economics will rule the day. So will common sense - usually does in the end.

Take Care

Bob

Lloyd Smale

02-27-2007, 07:31 AM

Im going to admitt to a little stupidity about politics by asking this. But does your goverment have any laws or rules that require that your citizens have passports to come over the the US or is this just an american law requireing both to have one. I guess Robert i still will go back to this. Why dont you informed citizens organize and educate the people in your country to not only gun rights as far a ccw but as to the validity of handgun hunting. Is there not enough Canandians that are really pro gun to organize something like the NRA. For the most part ignorance is just lack of education. Our laws do suck too. Some of them, especially in states like CA and NY and NJ and even WI are rediculous. I can carry a hadgun about anywhere in MI but if im travling out west i can get arrested in WI for doing whats leagal here. But one thing ill say is our country is changing for the better in that aspect. Lately many states have jumped on the ccw bandwagon and more do all the time and hopefully WI wil be one of them soon. This came about by the people standing together against the stupid laws that im sure even our goverment would like to hold on to. Alot of our polititions dont want us to have the capablitly to stand up to them either and alot of our citizens would rather be led around by a lease and have the goverment take care of all of there problems but theres enough of a voice left of people who know what this country was suppose to be and dont allow it. AT LEAST SO FAR! Even our own NRA is flawed, theres no doubt about it, but it does alot more good then bad with my money. Robert i too live in a small realitivly crime free area that a guy really doesnt need to carry a gun for self protection. But believe me shit happens. Im sure that there are examples almost every day in Canada of a murder or crime that would have been prevented if someone would have had a gun and there just like here the criminals have access to them anyway. Like Ive stated im surely no expert on how your goverment works but i still have to shake my head at the fact that there are so many hunters and gun owners there and you havent banned together to make some headway into educating the public. Tradition is fine but this world is changing fast and what ever happens to this country will no doubt happen to yours or at least effect it. Wouldnt it be great if someday the US and Canada had a reciprical ccw law where if you were here and i was in trouble you too could help me out and vise versa. Theres no reason it couldnt work. Crossing a border doesnt make anyone a criminal or terrorist. A good man there is a good man here and vise versa. Ill close with this. If your country partially closed its border or restricted access and said it was because terrorist in the US were comming i would feel insulted too! Any chance you guys have a job in your goverment for Hillary? ;)

robertbank

02-27-2007, 07:32 AM

I didn't think you were bashing Canada at all but I think you have to understand we are two very different but very similar countries with very different but similar histories.

Our Charter of Rights does not contain a clause similar to your 2nd amendment. I say this because the "right" to own firarems does not exist up here. What you view as "oppressive" we view as the "Law". If we want a law changed we simply have to elect a government with a a mandate to change the laws. Nothing oppressive about it.

That said you have to have a majority of people to support such a change and therein lies the challenge. For gun owners such as myself I have to convince my neighbour who is not, that our restrictive firearm legislation is counter-productive, expensive to maintain and is only impacting on honest people. This is happening and if and when the Conservatives attain a majority in Parliament in the next election you will see major changes in our gun laws. If the Liberals get in you won't. Like in the US, our large urban centres where a large portion of our population lives tends to vote Liberal (our counterpart to the Democrats) while rural and Western Canada tends to vote Conservative.

Take Care

Bob

Lloyd Smale

02-27-2007, 07:37 AM

Robert is there a group or organization there that has speerheaded any change in these laws. If there is id gladly donate a few bucks to there cause and i think alot of other americans would too!

robertbank

02-27-2007, 08:03 AM

Hi Lloyd

As far as I know this was an all American deal. Nothing to do with us. I do know there is a lot of lobbyng going on right now from this side of the border and from several border States to get some changes made. I do know it is going to impact the border States as well as Florida and any of the sunshine States as well as the Canaidan tourist industry.

Bush and Chretien (our Prime Minister at the time) were doing ther best to insult each other which might account for it passing, who knows. I really don't think this was particularily well thought out legislation. Can you imagine an American family returing to the US and being refused entry into there own country. I would pay money to watch that unfold.

We have two firearm organizations who are active in lobbying for changes to the laws. Since C 68 the firearm community has come together for the first time to fight the legislation and this is having an effect. Certainly the Conservatives have the full support of gun owners and we will see changes once the Conservatives get a majority in Parliament.

I think we will see CCW in Canada but not real soon. There is not the perception that crime impacts us all up here yet. Our crime rates in many areas are much higher than yours so you would think the message would get out but it really hasn't yet. All about perception I guess.

Yes I agree with you it would be nice if what you describe could happen. Unfortunately, as we both know, not all our citizens share this view. As it stand right now your Federal Firearms Act does not allow me to be in possession of a firearm in the US except under very restrictive conditions while I am a non-resident. To be be fair our restrictions imposed up you are the same. Wish it were different but unfortunately the anti-gun crowd and recent events have played the fear card. I can just hear the press up here ranting on about the hoard of American armed citizens waundering around our streets. Suspect it would be the same in the US press about Canadians.

My great grand-dad had a brother whose family moved into Washington and Idaho just prior to WW1. They just crossed the line and settled. Irwin was their name. My wife's family moved to Alberta about the same time from Wisconsin (sp). Just got on a train, came and settled. Can you see that happening today? Well OK leave out the Mexicans for a minute. LOL

Take Care

Bob

robertbank

02-27-2007, 08:10 AM

Hi Llloyd

Here is the major organization and really our counterpart to your NRA. Not as well funded but growing and is a major lobbyist up here. I am a member and fully support it.

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/

Take Care

Bob

Lloyd Smale

02-27-2007, 08:45 AM

I went to there websight and sent them an email to ask if I as an american can join and help with the battle.

Lloyd Smale

02-27-2007, 08:46 AM

Ps i guess we can let the guys in Texas deal with the mexicans!! Thats a whole different ball game down there and i doubt if they would get much support!!!!

robertbank

02-27-2007, 08:51 AM

Thanks Lloyd I am sure you can join CSSA. Right on about the southern border.

Now if I could figure out what front sight to install on my #4 life would be good. Just takes time

Take Care

Bob

R.M.

02-27-2007, 09:00 AM

Boy, I've missed this thread. As a Canuck living in the U.S. I see both points of view.
The comment about Hilory blaming Canada because they came in from Canada is pure BULL. When you cross into the United States, from Canada, you deal with U.S. Imigration and U.S. Customs. Nowhere are there any Canadaian officials. It was U.S. border personel that let them in.
I'm not even going to touch the handgun laws. I understand and work with the CDN laws, as I have shot on the CDN Pistol Team, and hope to again, so I deal with them a lot. For Americans, they can seem, and probably are useless for the most part, but that's the way it is.

R.M.

AnthonyB

02-27-2007, 09:05 AM

The US declared war against Germany on December 11, 1941. Tony

robertbank

02-27-2007, 09:37 AM

Of course it is but she made the claim. They didn't enter from Canada they flew in from Europe and if I remember correctly via New York.

Not much difference in opinion here R.M. just the laws are different and the background to the laws are different as you know.

We are fighting the same mindset when it comes to guns and their use in both our countries. This new bill on banning assault weapons in the States is really quite troublesome and will have consequences up here if it passes in the US. The Liberal Party in Canada would be all over it like a dirty shirt with parallel laws I am sure.

Take Care

Bob

dale clawson

02-27-2007, 09:38 AM

Don't get me started on Mexico as a neighbor. Just venture into Mexico with even an empty cartridge in your vehicle and the vultures in charge will come down on you in droves, each wanting to pick your carcase clean . If they can find or invent a cause to charge, or threaten to charge you, with a crime, the dollar signs light up in their eyes. A five thousand dollar lawyer fee, which is split up with various officals, and then the "mordita"(sp.?) or little bite, graft for each officer in attendance, and maybe you can escape a visit overnight to their jail, a visit that will have you putting your extended family in debt to get you back to the blessed USA. Simply taking the wrong exit, one that doesn't permit you to turn around without entering Mexico, can land you in the clutches of these official banditos. Once legally into Mexico, a very real threat of having your daughters, sons or loved ones kidnapped by the Mexican Maffia, that operates in a very open manner in some areas, particulary border towns. I won't visit Mexico, unless with a large group that stays in very public areas, and won't breathe easy until I'm back. I cannot blame the Mexican people for wanting to come to the USA any way they can get here, where we enjoy a freedom that is so easy as to be unappreciated.
GOD BLESS THE USA! DALE