Lee Loading manual

[45-70 Chevroner]

I bought a Lee Loading manual. It has a lot of info. My problem with the manual is that Lee does not have data for a lot of thier own cast boolit molds. I wounder if there could be a way we could get them to come up with a loading manual for just thier molds. I really think they would be able to sell a whole ****pot load of them.

[Linstrum]

About the best I can do for Lee's boolits is use the Lyman 46th edition reloading manual because a lot of the Lee boolits are pretty close to the Lyman boolits. When I can't find anything for a cast boolit I just use the copper jacketed data starting loads and work up my own load. With that said, I have had good results using copper jacketed pistol and rifle data straight across the board with the caveat that rifle boolit velocities should be kept below more or less 2000 fps to 2100 fps. I've been doing it that way since about 1984.

One thing about cast rifle loads, they CAN be pushed to about 2800 fps to 3000 fps when boolit alloy, lubrication, and boolit fit in the bore are optimum. But being practical, about the fastest I push cast is 2100 fps in the 6.5 Swedish Mauser, with that velocity having more to do with the fast rifling twist in Swedish Mausers than anything else.

rl 1036

[zuke]

The second edition tell's you how to figure out just about any cast bullet's load data.
I figured out 303,35 Whelan,30-06 while at the laundry matt.
Read then re-read that chapter and start to play with number's.

[Bret4207]

I have several of Lee manuals and I'm just not a fan of their layout. But, it doesn't matter. With cast you pick a similar weight boolit that intrudes into the case about the same amount and start there. You don't need the exact boolit for loading data.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I bought a Lee Loading manual. It has a lot of info. My problem with the manual is that Lee does not have data for a lot of thier own cast boolit molds.

Respectfully, I beg to differ.
There is quite alot of "Lead Bullet" data, granted He doesn't specify
by mold numbers, but I'd bet that Half of all the load data is for
"Lead Bullets".
I have Lee's "Modern Reloading 2nd Ed."
It isn't my GO TO reloading manual, but I usually
end up there as I use Lee's Disk measure for
most of my reloading and need there measurements
in CCs to chose the right disk.

FYI: my GO TO is Lyman's cast bullet handbook #4
Jon

[Rocky Raab]

The reason they don't have data for their own bullets is simple: Lee doesn't have a test lab and they develop NO data of their own. All the data you see in his books is merely copied from the original sources. They even copy the occasional typo or error.

The Lee books are valuable and they do contain a lot of interesting material not found elsewhere - but the load data doesn't fall under that description.

[mdi]

The reason they don't have data for their own bullets is simple: Lee doesn't have a test lab and they develop NO data of their own. All the data you see in his books is merely copied from the original sources. They even copy the occasional typo or error.

The Lee books are valuable and they do contain a lot of interesting material not found elsewhere - but the load data doesn't fall under that description.
Much like the "1 Caliber" reloading pamphlets. All info comes from manufacturer's sources. Personally I find Lee's load data lacking...

[Char-Gar]

I have noticed of late, folks want data for the exact bullet they wish to use. For those of us who have been at this a long time, that is not a concern. Data for a bullet of similar profile and similar weight is plenty good, PROVIDING the loader is not an idiot who is trying to push the red line with over the top loads.

Even is you find data for the same mold it will not the exact bullet as yours, because alloy and casting technique difference will not be the same.

PS: I have the Lee book because some generous soul sent me one free, because it was thought I was missing out, by not having one. I appreciate the thought, but have not found the book to be helpful in any way.

[1bluehorse]

I have the 2nd edition from Lee. It's also not my first go-to book either but it certainly has a lot of info in it. I don't care if Richard/John/Paul or Ringo copied it or not, it pretty much has everyones load info in one place. That in itself makes it pretty handy and worthwhile having...as in all manuals, start at the beginning and work your way up for accuracy/power level as needed.

Also theres a whole lot of different powders listed in this book ( granted most of which I don't use) than you'll find in any other publication.

[Texantothecore]

I love the Lee manual and plan on getting the new edition after Christmas. Chapters 8,9 and 10 are a fascinating discussion of pressure and elastic deformation of lead bullets and they taught me a great deal about how a bullet works in the gun.

Although I started reloading with their data, I quickly switched over to online data from Hodgdon and the other powder makers as I could access the data without bringing the book with me.

The reason that Lee doesn't use specific molds is that one 405 grain bullet is like another of the same mass.

[MT Gianni]

I have noticed of late, folks want data for the exact bullet they wish to use. For those of us who have been at this a long time, that is not a concern. Data for a bullet of similar profile and similar weight is plenty good, PROVIDING the loader is not an idiot who is trying to push the red line with over the top loads.

Even is you find data for the same mold it will not the exact bullet as yours, because alloy and casting technique difference will not be the same.

PS: I have the Lee book because some generous soul sent me one free, because it was thought I was missing out, by not having one. I appreciate the thought, but have not found the book to be helpful in any way.

Even if it is the same bullet number many have changed over the years so the bearing surface or nose length may be different.

[big dale]

I have lost count of the times I was seeking some load data and found that their min and max were the same. I don't remember it ever working out that way in any of my guns and for that reason I don't trust any of their load data. It is difficult to use much of their load data if you don't trust it. Most of the time I use the Lyman 4th edition if the powder is covered to find a min to start with and then work up slowly while measuring the groups.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[45-70 Chevroner]

I of course use other manuals for extrapolating such as the Lyman line of manuals. I have #44, #47, #49, and one made back in the early 70s plus thier #3 cast boolit manual. So I'm not really having a problem. Just thinking out loud. It is allways interesting to hear (read) others ideas. I do like the Lee manual ( I bought it early this year ) it has a lot of info. but it just seemed to be lacking in cast loadings for rifle. Maybe I'm just missing some of the info. I did find stuff for 30-30, 30-06, and a very few others.

[mpmarty]

Fortunately LEE had Hodgden run a series of tests and produced a factor table for many cartridges which can be loaded in a spreadsheet and used to calculate velocity and pressure for nearly any cartridge.

[Three44s]

With some exceptions, most cast boolit work is in the mid-pressure range.

As such you can substitute exact bullet wt. for the same or nearly the same and use that start charge and work your way into a load.

Boolitology often is not about maximums but more about mediums........ certain rifle cartridges and high performance handgun loads not withstanding.

Three 44s

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The value of the Lee reloading book is that IT DOES USE ORIGINAL DATA. In researching one always wants to go to the original data, no matter the topic, unless of course you want to quote the man in the street, the second hand info, the SWAGs and similar. You can easily reach lousy data on reloading via the internet though. Think of , uncorrected typos, uncalibrated typewriters, guys that can't read their measuring sticks correctly and similar. Lee's lead bullet chapter is good too.

BvT

[Frank]

Linstrum:

One thing about cast rifle loads, they CAN be pushed to about 2800 fps to 3000 fps when boolit alloy, lubrication, and boolit fit in the bore are optimum.

That's what I suspected. The good thing about cast in rifle is you can also have a flat nose and soften the nose while keeping the body hard. Lyman's most accurate 160 grn .308 load is over 2600 fps. I always say check the manuals first!

[Rocky Raab]

The "exact bullet" question is almost certainly a carryover from jacketed bullets, where data for the exact bullet definitely IS a matter of concern. It isn't so vital for lead bullets, as we all know - but caution is never a mistake in reloading.

[Duckdog]

I agree with some of you guys. His data is very good and I use his and the Lymans without worries. I personally do not worry if an exact match for a bullet is listed. It just doens't matter to me. The data gets me in the ballpark.

I personally have found his reduced load formula from the 1st addition, as well as his new 2nd addition, have been a godsend for some fo my loads. I have developed some sweet loads for some of my 30 cal rifles because of his 2nd addition formulas.

If your worried, start low and work up. That always works.

[adrians]

I have the 2nd edition from Lee. It's also not my first go-to book either but it certainly has a lot of info in it. I don't care if Richard/John/Paul or Ringo copied it or not, it pretty much has everyones load info in one place. That in itself makes it pretty handy and worthwhile having...as in all manuals, start at the beginning and work your way up for accuracy/power level as needed.

Also theres a whole lot of different powders listed in this book ( granted most of which I don't use) than you'll find in any other publication.

i agree with some ,not all.
my go-too's are lymans, i have the lee 2nd and yes i look at it occasionally but always get steered to pages 140-155 (cast boolit loads) just for a start point or reference.
then to my lymans.

don't forget George [smilie=l:.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has Lyman, LEE, SEACO, and RCBS cast bullet load data..

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/867/867465.jpg

Like examples:

.380ACP has load data for two Lyman designs and the LEE 356-102-1r

.40 S&W has load data for three Lyman designs, the RCBS 40-180-fn and RCBS 10MM-200-SWC, along with load data for the LEE 401-145-SWC.

.45ACP load data for five Lyman designs, three SAECO designs, one RCBS design, and the LEE TL452-230TC

30/30 has load data for two Lyman designs and the LEE C309-150-F

25-06 one Lyman design , two RCBS, and one SEACO

All the Lyman design data is a repeat of the 49th Edition Reloading Handbook, but I think the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition is worth it for the RCBS, SEACO, and LEE data you don't get in the 49th Edition Reloading Handbook. It does not have all the possible designs, but it's still good refrence information.

[Texantothecore]

Duckdog,
I am also a reduced load devotee and Lee's book is a real help in getting some wonderful loads going.

[Duckdog]

It's hard to beat developing a reduced load and dialing one in to be spot on. It's amazing how close some of his calculations end up being when actually chronographed!

Another thing that I really like is his elcheapo Lee Loader program with the balistic calculator. Like most of his stuff, either you love it, or hate it. I must say I personally think most of his stuff is pretty good... besides, they're located about 2 hrs from me so I like to support them.

[HiVelocity]

The best place to find cast bullet data for every type, weight, and configuration is "RIGHT HERE".

I've bought the manuals, read everything I could get my hands on and found bouncing around on this web site is the best resource I could find. When you find a cast bullet reference on this web site, contact them (all of them) with questions you have. Believe me, save yourself alot of T&E.

Great web site, mountain of information; great members! :castmine:

[mpmarty]

Three Speer manuals, Two Sierra manuals, PO Ackley book, NRA handloading book, Two Hornady books and the LEE 2nd edition plus Lyman #3 and Hodgden, Winchester and Accurate books. My library runneth over.

And like the Bible you can find support for nearly anything you can think of there.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Johnny Cyclone: I will definatly have to look at the Lyman 4th edition cast boolit book.

[trixter]

Going to the powder mfg'rs web site and looking carefully can also be a great resource. Every little bit helps.

[gefiltephish]

Just curious if anyone has perused the latest Lee Mod 2 and if it is a worthwhile addition over the last one?

Lyman 49 is my go to, but I also have cast 3 & 4, Sierra (current), Hornady 8, Lee, Hodgdon "magazine", Alliant booklet, some Load Books, and probably a couple I'm forgetting.

[1Shirt]

Think I have about 40 or so reloading manuals from Lyman,Speer,Hornady,Hogden,Lee, Sierra, Barnes, Nosler,ete,etc.etc. Can't pass up an offering on e-bay if the price is right, and some of them are great history books as well. The Lee's are good references as are the rest. The most interesting to me however are the old Lymans back into the 40's & 50'. I don't care for the foremats on some, and the Lees fall into that catagory. However, use some of the data from Lee on cast.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Tallyman]

My bible is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

I use comparable powder charges for cast lead bullets of the same weight and style. The powder charge for a 165 grain Lyman bullet will work for a Lee or RCBS bullet of the same or less weight. And, it is important to note, that cast lead bullets are loaded to reduced velocities with faster burning powders and lower pressures, so there should be no danger in slight variations in bullet weight and powder charges in modern firearms.

If you are leaving lead in your barrel you are doing something wrong! And, of course, there is always Murphy's Law!

[P.K.]

The reason they don't have data for their own bullets is simple: Lee doesn't have a test lab and they develop NO data of their own. All the data you see in his books is merely copied from the original sources. They even copy the occasional typo or error.

The Lee books are valuable and they do contain a lot of interesting material not found elsewhere - but the load data doesn't fall under that description.

Really? Are you sure about that statement? I think Dean Grennell and Mr. Lee would dispute that. Please read pgs. 90-91 of the 2nd edition. :groner:

[Rocky Raab]

I don't have the 2nd Edition, PK, but Dean has been dead for six years and retired for over 15. Any "lab testing" he may have done with Richard Lee was before that - and possibly long before that.

Since my statement was in the present tense, I'll stand by it.

[mdi]

Fortunately LEE had Hodgden run a series of tests and produced a factor table for many cartridges which can be loaded in a spreadsheet and used to calculate velocity and pressure for nearly any cartridge.

Is this info available to the public? If so, where?

[mac60]

I don't have the 2nd Edition, PK, but Dean has been dead for six years and retired for over 15. Any "lab testing" he may have done with Richard Lee was before that - and possibly long before that.

Since my statement was in the present tense, I'll stand by it.

I believe you're correct Rocky. I don't think there was any "lab testing" involved, it was more "on the back forty" informal shooting. However, Dean was given to putting the results of some of this shooting in print.

[drklynoon]

My advise is that when you are starting to develop a load is to reference as many load data tables as you can. I have found the Lee book to be conservative with some loads and down right hairy with others. Each manual seems to have these kinds of descrepencies. I check at least four or five different sources before I decide to try a certain powder and a starting weight. As far as using different boolit type data is concerned, the important thing to watch for is the shank or seating depth of the boolit. This is especially true when loading low capacity high energy rounds like a 9mm. If the seated length is the same and the boolit it weith is within 5 grains then the load is applicable.

[geargnasher]

Richard Lee explains in the 2nd edition how he developed his reduced pressure data for cast boolits. He wrote a computer program to note trends in grains vs. pressure using his massive pressure database from both Hodgdon and VV, although VV wouln't grant him permission to publish data involving their numbers. He noted trends. Then loaded test batches to verify the extrapolated data and had Hodgdon fire them in test barrels. His conclusion was that while the actual and extrapolated data was very close, "My limited testing does not prove a theory. Perhaps even a thousand tests would not prove it. However, I am convinced the pressure and velocity factors for even unsuitable powders are still sufficiently accurate for our purposes. To enhance reliablity, I elected to use only those powders what are close to being ideal for the cast bullet section." (Lee, 128). He also takes other caustion in that no compressed loads were considered, no loads were reduced by more than half, and no loads were considered where the starting load was near the never exceed load when developing his cast boolit data. I just wish he'd done if for more than three calibers, but he explains how to do the extrapolation yourself for just about anything later in the book. I've been extrapolating quite a lot in the last couple of years, but it always gives me the creeps the first time I pull the trigger on an unpublished load. Many of the members here have held my hand through some of these experiments and sanity-checked me with Quickload data, and I've learned a lot.

I like Lee's book, but seldom find the answer I'm looking for there. It is merely one of many sources I consult whenever I'm trying something new.

I will say, having tried it per directions many times, that Lee's theory of "most accurate" cast boolit loads being made so the peak pressure is just below the ultimate compressive strength of the alloy is a very good guideline with standard tools and generic moulds.

Gear

[Duckdog]

I know I have used his formulas in the 2nd edition and came up with some downright tack driving loads, based on the strength of the bullet. I personally use his book equally with the others I have and really have found no need to buy more. From what I can see now, there really can't be many changes unless there's new powder in the mix.

[fredj338]

I think the Lee is one of the poorest manuals on the market. The data is old & they have little specifc bullet info. All 230gr lead 45s are not the same. SOmeone really needs to put out a really good ref data book w/ all the current powders & many of the lead & jacketed bullets available, but the cost & equip pretty much precludes that.

[edsmith]

I don't trust any one manual, I don't trust any two manuals, I use three to get the info I need, way too many manuals are differant from each other, when I am setting off a confined bomb in front of my ugly face, I sure don't want it getting uglier by that bomb exploding in my face.:bigsmyl2: