38 Special Vs 9mm Luger

[Jason30-30]

I have read that The 9mm packs A bit more punch than the 38 spl. As Far As I know the 9mm is a high pressure round. But the 38 holds more powder. Can the higher pressures of the 9mm make it pack more punch than the 38 Special?

[fishhawk]

I think it just boils down to the increased velocity with the 9MM over the slower but a little heaver 38 spl

[mooman76]

I have heard it either way. There are formulas for it but just because it's a formula, don't make it right. I think they are close enough that it really doesn't matter. I call them even. Same argument with the 40 vs. 45acp.

[mpmarty]

Powder capacity has nothing to do with a cartridges performance. Look at the old huge black powder cartridges. The 38 spl began life as a black powder ctg. That's why it has such a needlessly large case. The 9mm on the other hand was designed for smokeless from the beginning and as it works at higher pressures it is more powerful.

[Dale53]

Either cartridge will do the job with a good bullet and a good hit. Neither will do the job with a bad hit or no hit.

Bullet choice can be important (my choice is the .38 Special FBI load - 158 gr H.P. Plus P). A good expanding bullet (not all are good) in the 9mm should do about as well.

Good and regular practice will do a lot for your personal piece of mind...

Dale53

[williamwaco]

I don't like anything about the 9mm except it is cheap to shoot.

For targets, and plinking, I really like the .38 special. It is very accurate.

As far as "Packs a Punch". Neither of them really "packs a punch".

My first experience with the .38 special was when I was a teenager. Two guys in my town got in a really bad disagreement. One of them had a .38 special, the other a Barlow.

The guy with the Barlow attacked the guy with the .38. The guy with the .38 shot him six times in the chest. The guy with the .38 died on the scene. The guy with the Barlow lived for many years. ( got off on self-defence)

I if you want "packs a punch" nothing smaller than the .357 Magnum will do that.

Better yet get something that starts with a 4.


.



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[Dale53]

>>>Better yet get something that starts with a 4.<<<

The problem with that is the size of the package. My S&W 642 is carried almost daily. It is considerably more than nothing. I have a Kimber CDP Ultra II (.45 ACP) with a 3" barrel. It is the nearest thing to "starts with a .4 that is anywhere near "portable". Everything is a trade off.

When I consider portability as well as near adequate, that is how I end up with a .38 Special Plus P...

Dale53

[Ole]

Target shooting:

3.7 grains of Bullseye in a 9mm will run the Lee 358RNFP125 grainer out around 950-1000 fps.
3.7 grains of Bullseye in a .38 special will run the Lee 358RNFP125 grainer out around 800 fps.

Most days, I prefer the .38, because I don't have to bend over to pick up my brass. :mrgreen:

[mpmarty]

I carry a 45acp in a compact 3" that holds ten rounds plus one up the pipe. It packs very nicely in an IWB holster from crossbreed holsters. My shirt tucks over it and it is truly concealed unless I need it for some purpose. I carry it loaded with 185gr Barnes hollow point "flyin' ashtrays" over seven grains of Unique. There's a reason the military dumped the .38 cal pistols a hundred years ago. Too bad the new military is a bunch of conformists going with the 9mm so the Europeans don't feel out gunned by us.

[odfairfaxsub]

I have read that The 9mm packs A bit more punch than the 38 spl. As Far As I know the 9mm is a high pressure round. But the 38 holds more powder. Can the higher pressures of the 9mm make it pack more punch than the 38 Special?

its all about after muzzle balistics if your asking about punch. bullet weight/nose shape/velocity/range has everything to do with punch.

the pressure is a delivery agent to get the bullet out of the barrel. small casing sharp necks and lots of powder create pressure. like the 308 to 30-06 comp. one loaded to shoot the same velocity and same bullet wieght one takes more powder but in the end they prob will have the same """""punch"""""

punch has nothing to do with chamber pressure except to the guy holding the gun

[Herb3]

Either one will get the job done if you put the rounds where they need to go. To do that it takes practice practice practice. I carry a Kahr CM9 and my wife carries a S&W 642. We both use Speer Gold Dot +P ammo and like I said either one will get the job done if you do your part.

[35remington]

Honestly, now............you wanna get shot six times with a .38 in the chest and bet on the outcome?

Anecdotal tales that are difficult to verify aside, I'm not going to bet on the well being of someone pasted six times in the chest with a .38.

No matter what "number" you think your pistol should start with. The triple digit calibers and the "4's" don't offer the increase in stopping power some would claim, either. Not to the tune of six rounds of .38 being "wimpier" than a couple of shots of something "bigger."

Six .38's offer a cumulative damage that is hard to contest. Your "favored" rounds aren't going to outdo that with a single shot, or even maybe two or three.

What does it matter, then? If this somewhat questionable tale were indeed true, look at it as more of the world's unluckiest guy doing the best he could and still failing. Not as a "caliber" thing. If the spine had been broken or skull penetrated, there would be little to say. And no guarantee something bigger would have worked, either, if placement "in the chest" was really hits around the edges.

[Recluse]

Back during my military days, the SEALs and (British) SAS could carry any caliber they wanted.

They chose 9mm. And it wasn't because of "increased capacity." Remember--these guys had to pack in anything and everything they were going to use, so efficiency was key. They never "sprayed and prayed" and instead made every shot count.

For years they both seemed satisfied with the MP5 as well as the British and their High Power 9mm handguns.

Back in Vietnam, the Air Force pararescuemen (PJs) went down the penetrator with a .38 S&W strapped to their side.

The FBI and their 158SWCHP took care of a lot of business for a lot of years.

Fire discipline and shot placement and weapon proficiency count for far more than does diameter of projectile.

Always has. Always will.

:coffee:

[warf73]

I have read that The 9mm packs A bit more punch than the 38 spl. YES it does As Far As I know the 9mm is a high pressure round. YES it is. But the 38 holds more powder. YES it is does. Can the higher pressures of the 9mm make it pack more punch than the 38 Special? YES

Here are some number from manufactors that sell defence ammo. My numbers came from Remington, Hornady, Speer, Bufflo Bore and Winchester all ammo was hollow points.

38sp ammo was all +p.

110gr. - 1090fps- 290ft.lbs.
125gr. - 1017fps - 287ft.lbs
130gr. - 950fps - 260ft.lbs.
135gr. - 860fps - 222ft.lbs.
158gr. - 945fps - 248ft.lbs.

9mm ammo is standard unless other wise noted as +p or +p+.

115gr. - 1140fps - 332ft.lbs.
124gr. - 1220fps - 410ft.lbs.
135gr. - 1010fps - 306ft.lbs.
135gr. - 1110fps - 369ft.lbs. +P
147gr. - 975fps - 310ft.lbs.
147gr. - 1175fps - 451ft.lbs +P+

As you can see in factory defence ammo the 9mm has more punch, but there is more to the equation than just speed and energy.
What delievery system do you want to use?
If your going with 38spl. you will be stuck with a revolver as your delivery system.
With the 9mm you use either semi auto or revolver as your delivery system.

Ill regaurdless of what you choose both will be fun to shoot and will do a good job in defending you if that is needed.

[olafhardt]

This is real simple. If you like revolvers, get a 38.Simiauto, get a 9mm.

[Bullwolf]

There are a few snub nose revolvers around that are chambered in 9mm.

You could get a Ruger SP 101 chambered in 9mm.

I have a Smith and Wesson 940 J-frame that's chambered in 9mm myself.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904ee1cdb001f11.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2924)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904ee1cdde42a39.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2925)

In informal tests I have done vs newspaper, and 1 gallon milk jugs the 9mm packed a bit more of a wallop than the .38 Special did out of a snub nose revolver.

If I am ever attacked by wet newspaper, or angry milk cartons, I know exactly where I stand now!

The 9mm was more prone to splash you with milk jug water, than the .38 Special (not counting light high velocity frangible ammunition, that I would never trust for penetration while hunting, or for self defense use) all things being somewhat equal using similar bullet weights, I also got more penetration and velocity out of the 9mm. The 9mm was actually a pretty good performer out of a short barreled revolver, and not unpleasant to shoot either.

You can load 9mm to higher pressure than .38 Special, and case capacity doesn't really become an issue unless you are using very heavy boolits, which aren't fun to shoot in a snub nose anyways. If you are really worried about power, step up to the .357 Magnum instead.

As others have said shot placement is more important than anything else. A miss with the biggest baddest caliber is never going to be as good as a solid hit with a good old .38 special.

I find .357 Magnum loud, recoil sharp, and generally unpleasant to shoot informally in a snub nose revolver. My follow up shots are also a bit slower. The really sharp recoil will eventually give me a case of the flinches as well.

I have a really nice, accurate, DAO snub nose Ruger SP 101 in .357 Magnum that is downright miserable to shoot with heavy full power 357 Mag loads. It's fun and pleasant to shoot 38 special loads and its pretty accurate with the .38's too. The SP101 spends more time in the safe than you would expect.

All that being said, the gun often found on my belt, or in my pocket... is a Smith and Wesson J-frame Air Weight in... (gasp) .38 Special. It sports a pair of De Santis Clip-Grips and it is the gun that doesn't get left behind when I walk around the ranch, go feed the horses, shut on/off the well, etc.

Sometimes it's just more comfortable than a bigger heavier gun, or even wearing a holster. It is often the gun brought along with me the most for the little day to day stuff. I would rather have my little .38 Special with me, than my 44 Magnum sitting in the safe because I didn't want to pack it with me all day in the heat, or the rain, or just because it was uncomfortable to wear for extended periods.

Sure the 9mm packs a bit more punch, than the .38 Special does, and the .357 Mag even more so, but the .38 is light, and downright pleasant to shoot and carry. Because of that it gets shot and practiced with often, carried often still, and it doesn't get left behind when the others do.

It's still a popular and viable caliber, until someone manages to build a better mousetrap.


- Bullwolf

[Bret4207]

The 38 is under loaded, it's capable of a lot more than the 9mm. Simple as that. Since when did handloaders give a hoot about factory ballistics?

[Moonman]

LEO'S put a bunch of BAD GUYS in the ground with those old 38 Special Revolvers. Practice, Practice, Practice if you carry a "Snubbie 38", that's essential, yet few do practice a lot with it.

Those of the "Spray and Pray" crowd likes to shoot, not practice accuracy. Both of the rounds will do the job, if you do yours.

[odfairfaxsub]

agreed moonman

[ku4hx]

Lots of good info here:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

But in the end, shot placement is king.

[garym1a2]

It depends on how much you load up the 38 and the capability of the gun. A 9mm is already over 30Kpsi and cannot be loaded much hotter. The 38 could be loaded to 357 specs in the right gun or hotter in the ruger Blackhawk type gun. In my 686 the only difference between the 357 and the 38 is the case length. 6 grains of unique and the 38 case is a decent hard hitting round with a 158 grain boolit. The 9mm likes lighter boolits.

The main advantage of the 9mm is number of rounds. My Glock holds 17 rounds and can unload them very fast and accuratly. My 686 only holds 6 rounds.

Regardless of what people think a could rounds in the chest of either one will stop an attacker. I have yet to ever here of somone getting up from a heart shot from even a .22LR.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

if i were going to make an argument , it would be for bullet shape

if 9mm fails in anything it is because of the shape of the bullets used rather than the speed or size , those aerodynamic little pills slip right thru a target looking like they could be reloaded coming out the other side

and to get 9mm to feed well with hollow points often the cavity is small the opening narrow and they can and do plug and fail to expand i tried a 9mm golden saber thru some scrap wood the other day it with 3 1.5 inch think wood scraps both it and the fmj went right thru then bounced off the log the wood scraps were leaned against and lay there both looked like they could be reloaded , no expansion what so ever the hollow point plugged up with wood.

i shot a flat pointed 40 fmj into the wood it deformed expanded , and stopped after 2 pieces of wood but split the second block of wood and definitely dropped more energy in the blocks of wood tossing it rather than just zipping thru it
however i shot it again with a 40 jhp with a much smaller point it zipped thru the wood and penetrated the log it was leaned against

i would like to at some point re-test this with a 125gr rf for the 357 out of as soft a lead as i can get to work in a 9mm maybe a 20:1 and also with a 175 gr .40 lee TC in as soft as i can get to work

as big a flat point as you can get to feed seems to make a lot of scenes.

faster isn't necessarily better , if you can plow thru strait and slow it is better than ,zip thru deflecting off of ribs and going in an other than intended direction.

[fecmech]

Shooting HP's into wood is a bogus test. HP's are designed to expand in a fluid medium, that's what opens the HP.

[Char-Gar]

RCMP used 5" Smith and Wesson Model 10s with a 158 gr lead HP going a true 1,000 fps. A very effective round.

Either round with good ammo makes an effective defense weapon IF the bullet is placed in the right spot.

[Love Life]

The 38 is under loaded, it's capable of a lot more than the 9mm. Simple as that. Since when did handloaders give a hoot about factory ballistics?

Agreed. I have a 9mm pistols and 38 special revolvers. I load my 38 specials to 38/44 levels and call it good. I feel sorry for anything that gets in the way of my 40:1 158 gr LSWC doing 1200 FPS.

Actually I feel sorry for anything that gets in the way of any of my boolits from any gun. As has been said many times on this thread shot placement is everything.

If I had to choose it would be a 38 special all day everyday.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Shooting HP's into wood is a bogus test. HP's are designed to expand in a fluid medium, that's what opens the HP.

i don't disagree , i did it because their was a discussion on penetration on another board , it was actualy a discution about over penetration reputation of 9mm as that poster saw it. my argument was that it has as more to do with the bullets shape as then the cartridge it comes from

i would like to see ballistic gel with a bunch of bone from a butcher in it some time as well as heavy clothing

[GabbyM]

I’ve a reach for power load for my 9x19mm's. It’s 147 grain cast or jacketed Hornady XTP's over the manufacturers listed max load of VV 3N38. I get 1,147fps while it list at a tad over 1200 fps. I run a 16 to 18 pound spring in place of the 14 pound stock 9mm spring. It’s 40 S&W energy levels. I get no measurable case head expansion. Therefore I do not consider this load a +P load. Accuracy in my S&W is just so so but on par with most loads. Recoil is markedly increased which lowers fun factor. The heavy bullets in general don't shoot to the sights in any of my pistols.

With a 38 Special revolver any perceived power deficiency is easily overcome. Just buy a 357 magnum revolver.

[pmer]

In 38 Special I was playing around with 3.0 - 3.2 of Bullseye and ACCOWW 358156s. In my Model 10 they shoot great and can poke through one side of those pound in steel fence posts. They are T shaped from the end and 1/8'' thick or so.

I'd say thats doing pretty good if I'm confronted by a fence post in the house. :Fire:

[1Shirt]

I am a proponent of blt shape and blt wt. To me, a big wide flat meplat on a 38S. has a big advantage over a 9MM as a defense ctg. Also you probably shoot less 38S in a revolver than you do a 9MM in a pistol. A matter of choice I guess.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Freischütz]

Try some 38/44 loads in a gun built for them, and you're opinion of the 38 Special will change. A 158 gr SWC at >1100 fps is tough to beat unless you move up to a larger caliber.

[mongo]

Moonman hit that nail on the head. Back in the day in the rotten apple we had six shooters with 158gr swc. In the eairly 90's they finally issued 9mm pistols. The fire discipline kind of went out the window with the six guns. It also took less hits with the 158gr .38+p than the 115gr 9mm to stop the bad guys. Not a scientific study but a personal observation.

[Judan_454]

The 38 is under loaded, it's capable of a lot more than the 9mm. Simple as that. Since when did handloaders give a hoot about factory ballistics?
Great Point

[MT Gianni]

9mm works with bullet weights from 100-147 gr. 38 works from 100-215 gr.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The Colt Army Special, Official Police, and *Commando revolvers are all built on the old .41 frame. They can take the 38/44 loads.


* WWII era production of the "Official Police", not to be confused with the D frame snubby with the same name that was produced sometime around 1980.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I will match the Keith load of the .38 Special against any 9mm Luger round.

[1Shirt]

I like the last responses!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[mdi]

I am a proponent of blt shape and blt wt. To me, a big wide flat meplat on a 38S. has a big advantage over a 9MM as a defense ctg. Also you probably shoot less 38S in a revolver than you do a 9MM in a pistol. A matter of choice I guess.
1Shirt!:coffee:

I agree with 1Shirt. My personal PD load is a double ended wadcutter, cast from wheel weight alloy, about 150 grains, over a stiff load of W231. I keep 5 of them in my 2" 38. I've never shot another human, never hunted with a handgun so all my info is from my own research. FMJ 9mm, which is by far the most popular bullet shape in 9mm seems to punch nice 9mm holes, whereas .358" slugs with a flat meplat impart much more tissue damage. So, I guess the question would come down to which is better; a faster RN, TC, or HP or a slower heavier SWC, FN, HP or WC?...

[USSR]

Ain't either of these cartridges going to kill something that the other won't just as well. Personally, I'll take a 170gr SWC in front of 5 grains of Unique over any 9mm load.

Don

[Moonman]

WC'S or a HPWC will make a nice wound channel for sure. I recently had some female students shooting some S&W SNUBBIES with assorted ammo. The AIRWEIGHT with +P ammo they did not really care for and many people have the same opinion.

I put some new Fiocchi Full Wadcutter ammo in the Snubby and they didn't mind shooting it, that means they're more likely to practice with it. Which is really a good thing if you're going to carry one.

[GLL]

I will take a 165grain 358429 at 1150ft/sec in a .38/44 Outdoorsman !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/10E7D767428827C/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/63D6C7BA8FEEAA6/orig.jpg

[shovel80]

Those ARE Nice Looking Revolvers!!

Terry

[jdgabbard]

Like said before, the 38spl is in fact underloaded. It can handle much more, however it is loaded with less to adjust for the older guns that weren't made to handle the pressure.

I'd like to think that in the 125-150g area that they are essentiall the same. However where the 38spl shines is it's ability to load heavier boolits. Like the 170g mentioned, or the whopping 200g that for me actually casts at 210-214g, and then there is the 190g Ranchdog. Both of those I load to the 650-750fps area. And both will do a number on anything that you stack them against.

The biggest advantage that the 9mm offers over the 38spl is not its "power," which would be better described as terminal ballistics. Rather the "advantage" that the 9mm has is its autoloading capabilities. The autoloader was designed for the soldier in combat. The fact is that efficiency goes down to 30% of normal when put in a high stress situation. (At least that is what I've been taught in my almost a decade of war). People just dont have the hand/eye/nerve coordination that they normally would have when placed under high stress, i.e. a shootout. The 9mm allows the soldier to reload in three steps. Eject the magazine, and replace with a new magazine, release the slide. The revolver, which we traditionally used, took at least four. Open the cylinder, empty the cylinder, replace each round in the cylinder, close the cylinder. There were things that made it faster such as moon clips, but no man can deny that the autoloader just reloads easier and faster.

The 9mm may have a limited advantage of external ballistics in comparison to the 38spl when looked at on paper. But it's real advantage is size, how it is delivered to the firearm, and how fast and simply it is loaded into the firearm.

But bottom line, 38spl has filled more body bags. Think of it as the .30-30 of the urban enviroment.

[jdgabbard]

Having said the above, let me also throw out there that I normally carry a airweight 38spl. Its loaded with 158g+P HPs. When I came home on leave the the middle east I purchased a Kel Tec PF-9, and look forward to it when I come home. It carrys two more, I'm not a fan of high capacity - but two more in the hole is welcomed over the 5 my airweight carries, and weighs a little less if I'm not mistaken.

Does that mean I'm getting rid of the wheelguns? Heck no!!!!

I'll keep them, and still carry them. But I'm a firm believer that some types of weapons "hide" better than others in certain types of clothing. As the old man once said,"the right tool for the job."

[Love Life]

I will take the 38 Special any day, but I also carry a 9mm at times. Either one is better than a sharp stick.

The Family.
S-Prefix pre model 27 5 screw
N-Prefix model 28-2
Gen-1 Glock 17
Gen-3 Glock 26

The hog legs are for my outdoors adventures, and the black plastic bricks are for when I am out and about town.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
This has been an unending debate since the late 1960's at least.
I was forced to use the 38 spl as a LEO. Most PDs & most Military left it behind long ago, & for good reason.
The 9mm has the same draw backs & was also left behind by many Pds & many Military.
Hatcher, Coopers, the NRA's green paper studies, the FBI & many others studies have shown that cal that start with 4 do a better job. Even better if they are moving 1,000'/s or more.
All this is moot if you can not hit what you shoot at.
My experience is that most law enforcement officers do not practice enough even when given free ammo.
Many who carry do not practice even 1 time a year.
Good Luck to them.
Most of us on the forum are a different breed.
WE SHOOT WHAT WE CARRY, THAT WILL MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE.:Fire::Fire: