An Unusual Trapdoor

[KCSO]

I picked up an unusual Trapdoor this week. The gun is a Cadet Model with 1884 sights and looks to be all original. I stripped the gun and from the wear and dirt patterns the gun has not been apaprt since it was new. Now here is the odd part. The gun has full sling and stacking swivles and the stock shows no signs of ever having a cartouche. It is a true cadet with a 29+ barrel and the narrower buttplate and stock but the lock is blued and is 100% blue the trapdoor still has traces of colour case as does the tang but the breech block is blued. The gun is all original, and nothing is right according to my books. In my books 1884 Cadets started at 500000 serial number and this one is 403000. It shouldn't have swivles, it should have a cartouche, the lock should have been cased ect.

Any help from our Trapdoor experts.

By the way the bore is good and it will be a shooter.

[13Echo]

Sounds like a Bannerman special built up from surplus parts. Try posting a question on the Jouster Trapdoor site at this address:

http://jouster.com/cgi-bin/trapdoor/trapdoor.pl

Someone there will be able to help.

Jerry Liles

[Old Ironsights]

I also have a cobble I was just given:

Edit: deleted 2 pics of wrong gun....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5179.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5181.jpg

Not sure what it eats...

[gregg]

Sounds like a Bannerman special built up from surplus parts. Try posting a question on the Jouster Trapdoor site at this address:

http://jouster.com/cgi-bin/trapdoor/trapdoor.pl

Someone there will be able to help.

Jerry Liles

Yup
But still dandy i'm sure. I Love them all.

[gregg]

I also have a cobble I was just given:

Not sure what it eats...
CHOP CHOP
Lets get going here!!
Looks like fun waiting to happen.

[Old Ironsights]

It looks like a "forager" like Geronimo had, but doesn't have the right breech.

Geronimo's gun was factory, but this has some sort of Snider knockoff breech.

I think it's a 20ga though...

[AkMike]

Ironsights gun is called a Zulu. Usually made up of old musket parts and pieces. The lock on that one appears to be an old french one to me. It is a knock-off of a Snider action such as the Brit's used to make up their first breech loader.
Is there a wooden or wax plug in the stock of that one?

[floodgate]

I see two DIFFERENT pieces there. The one in the top two photos looks like a Trapdoor "forager"; if authentic, it COULD be worth big bucks, but most of them floating around are "cobble jobs" (this one looks pretty clean, though, and appears to have the proper "pin" front sight).

The other is clearly Snider-based (did you know Snider was an American?). I can't make out the stamping on the lock, but the plate is clearly European.

Let us know what the experts have to say.

floodgate

[StanDahl]

KCSO, I have a Trapdoor cadet, #489110. It too has no cartouche, but it was probably sanded, as the lock stands out from the wood. It has some large numbers stamped into the butt stock, olde-tymie style...and another big marking, "EJM" is more home-made.

After a serial number search, I realized that this cadet model was issued as a rifle, then cut down later. The gov't did cut down a lot of rifles in later years and turn them into cadets. I didn't realize it at first, but the butt plate is much thicker (0.123") than another cadet I have, indicating that it was reshaped from a rifle buttplate. From Poyer and Reisch's "45-70 Springfield" book, "If you see grinding marks and uneven edges where the buttplate was narrowed and shortened, it was not manufactured at the National Armory." Mine was done cleanly, and there are no tool marks, indicating that it could have been done at the National Armory, instead of by Bannerman. The sanding job, varnish, and brass tacks in the stock were likely done by someone else later in its life.

The second cadet, sn 565015, has an 1893 cartouche and appears to be 'all there'. According to Waite & Ernst, 1884 cadets began being produced before sn 388,000, Poyer & Reisch agree.

[AkMike]

Ironsights, Have a look see at this beast and tell us if it looks familiar!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=66543248

[Old Ironsights]

I see two DIFFERENT pieces there. The one in the top two photos looks like a Trapdoor "forager"; if authentic, it COULD be worth big bucks, but most of them floating around are "cobble jobs" (this one looks pretty clean, though, and appears to have the proper "pin" front sight).

The other is clearly Snider-based (did you know Snider was an American?). I can't make out the stamping on the lock, but the plate is clearly European.

Let us know what the experts have to say.

floodgate

You are right. I mixed up the pics :oops:. Those were the ones of the Forager I found to show to the guy who gave me the gun to show it wasn't a forager. My bad.

It sure looks like the gunbroker piece. I'm going to have to take some better pics.

The guy who gave it to me also gave me a nice German 20ga Damascus double and a 12ga Double Drilling...

[Old Ironsights]

Ironsights gun is called a Zulu. Usually made up of old musket parts and pieces. The lock on that one appears to be an old french one to me. It is a knock-off of a Snider action such as the Brit's used to make up their first breech loader.
Is there a wooden or wax plug in the stock of that one?

I'll look.

Where should I look?

[KCSO]

Mine has the lighter narrow buttplate and the narrow stock. It doesn't appear to be sanded down and the barrel diameter at the muzzle is the same as tha muzzle diameter of a regular trapdoor. Ths barrel was made as a Cadet and is not a shortened trapdoor. I have another fellow doing some research also and I will let you know what the verdict is.

[AkMike]

If it has one the plug will be on the side of the butt stock. Rumor has it that the early Mormon settlers were given these guns to help them settle the west. Supposedly they put a couple of drops of holy water in the hole of the stock then sealed it with a plug. I've seen pics of a couple of these. The plug is very visable.
Many have Belgian proof marks.
It isn't a strong action so be careful IF you shoot it. Holy Black only and IMO not much of that!

[Old Ironsights]

After looking at the bore and monkeying with the action, I'm not sure I would shoot it with anything unless there were no other option...

Here's what I learned...

The gun is a "Tabatiere," a French version of the Snider or Trapdoor Springfield. These were conversions of muzzle-loading muskets. It was later made intoa a "Zulu," i.e., the converted rifle was re-barreled to a shotgun and again, sold as a cheap-cheap utility gun to farmers.

Oh, and there is NO plug. I also had the thing totally apart and most of the work is cast iron...

BTW, FWIW I also have a 16x16xSomthing (probably 9.3x72R) Drilling with Kaiser-Proofs dating from 1900ish.

I'm hoping to find someone who will tell me it's safe to shoot. It'll make a heckofa rabbit gun...

[AkMike]

Does that drilling lock up tight? Off face?
The 9.3X72 is similar power wise to a 38-55. If it has nitro proofs it can go a bit faster. I have a 16X16-8X57JR Neat old set up.

[Old Ironsights]

Sure feels tight. There are some questions whether it's nitro proofed or not. 16 bores are glassy pristine. The lands near the throat of the rifle are a bit cruddy looking, but I've seen worse, and over all the bore is good, and rough-mics out to .353 at the crown. I believe, from some of the stampings, that it's supposed to be "lead only", 14.6 grams, with 8.8mm between the lands.

Top gun in the three gun pic.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5191.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5172.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5173.jpg

The German Gun Collectors Assn. told me this about the Drilling:

"Your Drilling with a Roux type underlever was made in Suhl by Wilhelm Richard Jaeger. The rifle caliber is most likely 9.3x72R."

Another chap had ths to say:

[quote]The drilling is German made, proofed at Suhl, probably 1890-1900, perhaps a it earlier. Pre-WW One Imperial proofs, for sure, and not later than 1920. I think earlier. It's possible it went through a re-proof at some point, but the pictures aren't very clear, and it's hard to decide if there are any post-1912 markings.

Can't read the caliber markings, but if it's post 1888 it may be: 1) 8x57R with a .318" bore (unlikely unless it's well past that date); 2) 9.3x72R, a popular caliber for these guns; 3) God alone knows.

The first thing to do is measure the bore diameter. If it's in the 7mm range, that rules out anything bigger, etc. My best estimate is that it's going to be in the .35 caliber range, which probably (but not certainly) means one of the long tapered rimmed rounds like 9.3x72R. I THINK I see "8.somethingx72" stamped in it, which isn't anything listed in standard references, but it might be 8x72R. There are so many oddball European rounds used in drillings all this is just a guess. Sometimes gunsmiths made their own proprietary calibers, and/or their own chamber reamers which might or might not be exactly to spec. Only a chamber cast is a reliable way to decide what it is in the absence of definitive markings.

The shotgun barrels are 16 gauge, likely 2-9/16" chambers. It will likely chamber modern 2-3/4" shells but these will stress it and shouldn't be used. "Kruppstahl" means the barrels are made of "Krupp steel," i.e., in theory from the Krupp Arms works, likely the place where the barrel blanks were purchased. The crown-over-U and crown-over-W indicate that it was proofed in the finished state and is choked.

This gun is not nitro-proofed and should be used if at all with VERY mild loads and preferably black powder.

Values...the Belgian (a damascus double, not shown) is worth, at best, $200, likely not much more than $125, because it's not safe to shoot. Some wacko might shoot it in a Cowboy match if he doesn't mind losing some fingers. The drilling is worth anywhere between $500 and $800 depending on how tight it is, what the rifle caliber is, and whether or not it will safely handle smokeless shotshells of the proper length. The rifle caliber is what will determine its desirability to a buyer (believe it or not some of these guns were made in .30-30, but that's HIGHLY unlikely) if ammo can be had or made.

Both of them pre-date 1899, almost certainly (the Belgian absolutely does) and are therefore "antiques" under the Gun Control Act, exempt from all Federal regulations. i don't know about Indiana's definitions.

[AkMike]

Before you go much further do a chamber cast to find out what it is. The euoro's use bore size when they stamp the chamberings on the guns. That 8.8(or 9) X72 is probably the 9.3X72 BUT there are 2 of those calibers. Sauer had their own 9.3!
It should digest a 193 grain slug just fine. X72 Norma brass is readily available as well as loaded. Sellier and Belliot also has factory fodder.

[PatMarlin]

You know there are 2 Cadet model versions the Cadet I and the Cadet II.

[hydraulic]

Flayderman says the sling swivels are probably correct. PP 475: "----but has sling swivels as well as stacking swivel. These are merely 'true' Cadets which when taken out of West Point service and replaced by later models were given or sold to military schools or organizations which required the use of slings.
Model 1884's had "Blued finish with casehardened breechblock and tang." Blue lockplate is correct.
Serial numbers for 1884's : 300,000 to 500,000 range. Cadets and carbines numbered with rifles.