240 gr RFN for Redhawk?

[happy7]

Can anyone recommend mold for a 240 gr Round Flat Nose for a Redhawk, prefereably gaschecked? I tried the lee gas checked SWC mold and could't get it to group better than four inches at 25 yards no matter what load of 296 or lil gun i fed it.

[MT Gianni]

Mine likes the LY 429244 Thompson designed swc. It also does good with the 429421 Keith. Both are pushed ahead of wc820 surplus powder. Gianni.

[Cherokee]

I do my 44 Redhawk heavy load shooting with 429421 and #2400. Chron load just short of 1500 fps and no leading. Works for me.

[cbrick]

happy, Are you sure its the bullet design? Did you slug your throats & groove diameter? What are you sizing them too? What is the alloy? How hard are you pushing them?

Ball powders (such as 296) won't work very well with reduced loads. What loads did you try?

Rick

[44man]

Yes, more information please.
If that is a standard Redhawk, try H110. Try a Fed 150 primer with it. Make sure you have case tension on the boolit. Fit the boolits to the throats or a little larger.
We had a lot of trouble trying to get a Redhawk to group until we went to H110. Now don't all of you tell me it is the same powder, I know it is and can't explain it but it made a huge difference. My SBH and SRH will not group with H110 and I have to use 296.
There is enough difference from which batch each is taken from that something is up.
2400 would be great too.

[44man]

The difference between 296 and H110 involves more then the slight difference in lot numbers too. I have had zero luck loading each to match velocities from one to the other. I have used more pounds of each then I would want to count with the same results. I have been baffled since the powders first came out.

[happy7]

happy, Are you sure its the bullet design? Did you slug your throats & groove diameter? What are you sizing them too? What is the alloy? How hard are you pushing them?

Ball powders (such as 296) won't work very well with reduced loads. What loads did you try?

Rick

I tried 296 from 23 to 24.5 grains in 1/10 grain increments. I have also tried 2400 although only a couple different loads on that. The alloy is air cooled ww. I only got my chonometer for Christmas so have not had a chance to chrono them yet as I did most of the work last summer. It's gotten to where I don't shoot the gun much anymore cause I can't afford the jacketed bullets with prices the way the are. I sized them to .430 with the lee sizer and lubed with lee liquid alox. They were not leading. I guess I just assumed that with groups that bad it had to be the bullet. The best I could get was almost four inches at 20 yards.

I have not slugged the bore. I am pretty new to the casting thing and I am greatful for your suggestions. I guess I assumed that being a modern gun it would be pretty much a 429 bore. But from what I have been reading on this forum it looks like that was a bad assumption. I will slug it and get back to you. To be honest I did not even measure the bullets before I sized them so I don't know what they dropped at. But how much can you size a bullet before deforming it. I thought only a couple thousands?

I do have some H110 I could try. Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe I should also try some 4227 or lil gun which i also have. Anybody have a favorite 44 mag powder with gas checked boolits? I want to get away from 296 anyway. It doesn't meter nice in my Dillon. I did all my test loads with a trickler.

[lovedogs]

All good suggestions here. If you are still interested in the mould you mentioned I use a Saeco #431 that is listed as a 250 gr. RNFPGC. Using a #2 alloy it drops out at about 243 gr. from my mould. Their diameters are .4335 as cast so they leave room for sizing down to fit your bore. My Ruger .44 slugs .4295. I size to .430 and lube with Larsen's 50/50 lube. No leading and great accuracy. I decided on this mould because I hoped to someday acquire a lever rifle in .44, also. Now that I have one it feeds perfectly in that, too. It was originally designed to work in the .444 so it works good in levers. I shot a deer last fall with it and it worked fine.

[cbrick]

happy, in a revolver the groove diameter of the bore is only important in that it is at or just a tick under throat diameters. Its the throats that you need to know the dimensions of and size the bullets to a mild, snug fit in the throats. If your groove diameter is much larger than throat diameter (and yes, this does happen) you will never get it to shoot well. If this should be the case the throats will need to be reamed by a competent smith. This makes perfect sense if you look at the throats as bullet sizing dies. Say your groove diameter is .431" and your throats are all .429". You size your bullets a common .001" over groove diameter or .432". Now ask yourself . . . what size are the bullets when they leave the throat? Next question to ask yourself, how loose are my newly sized .429" bullets in my .431" groove diameter bore?

Given the wording of your original post and the amount of testing you have done my SWAG is a bullet fit problem much more than a load problem.

How much a cast bullet can be sized will depend largely on how you size it but as a general rule I don't like to go much more than .002"

Rick

[happy7]

Rick: I have never given much thought to throats. I will have to get my Ruger out tomorrow and examine it and see if I can measure the throat. It would be great to get this gun shooting really accurate. Nothing I love more than an accurate gun.

LoveDogs: That Saeco #431 mold looks to be about what I was looking for. Darn I wish it wasn't a Saeco though. Man they are expensive. I do have a Marlin 44 so it would be nice to have a bullet that would shoot well in both.

[Bass Ackward]

But how much can you size a bullet before deforming it. I thought only a couple thousands?


We can size a bullet almost indefinitely if sized nose first. But there is a second part of your question which you did not ask, how much can a gun size down before deforming it.

Nope, we size gently under controlled conditions allowing metal to extend logically. In a gun, the process is violent with ever increasing pressure on the base.

[k8bor]

I have (3) Ruger SA's in .357, .41, & .44 mag, and all of them shot much better with the throats opened .001" bigger than the groove diameters. It's even amazing the difference in diameters between the throats in the same cylinders.
That is my first and primary accuracy fix with any Ruger, the second is the Beartooth method of firelapping. After the firelapping job is done right, it's almost impossible to get those pistols to lead with any speeds you can generate with the powders you're talking about. I think bullets that are too undersize might do it though.
If anyone knows anything about the forcing cone jobs gunsmiths like Gary Reeder talk about improving accuracy, I would appreciate hearing about it.
tnx
k8bor

[44man]

I didn't mention the throat size because I figure anyone that has lurked or posted here should have read a zillion posts on the problem. It is constantly mentioned and should be one of the first things checked. But I guess a new fella could miss it.
I have been lucky with all of my Ruger's except the .45 Vaqueros and BH's. But knowing Ruger, there most likely are a bunch of other calibers that were not made the right size.
Interesting topic and I would like to know how many of you have had undersize throats in the other calibers. (Other then the .45's.)
Happy7, let us know what your throats measure.

[happy7]

Well, you are right. I only found this forum about two months ago. It is great!. And I'm not real experienced slugging. I tried measuring the throats with a caliper, but couldn't get consistent measurements. So I slugged each throat with a 451 lead ball. As best I can measure the throats are .4305 and a couple were .4310. I slugged the barrel as well. It measures as best I can tell .4285-.4290 accross the grooves. So what size should I size my boolits? Either .429 or .430 I am guessing? And what does this tell me about my gun?

[k8bor]

Sometimes when I'm fraght with a probelm like this, I have to just stop and relax. Go back and repeat your tests in a couple more days. When you do repeat them, Try to relax, concentrate real hard on sight picture and trigger squeeze and take your time. I've shot a lot of handguns, and by the beginning of every hunting season I can generally hit 4" bulls at 50 yards pretty consistently using a rest of some type. This is when I've been practicing at least a couple times a week most of the summer, I have my own range in the back yard. Even with this, normally in the spring I gradually work up from the .357 on through the bigger calibers. If I just pick up the .44 first, right out of the chute I'm both mentally and physically cold on shooting that amount of recoil and blast, and 4" at 20 yards is a distinct possibility. I've learned personally to allow myself not to get too frustrated and take it slow. Maybe you want to start with some other powders even below cowboy action loads and work up. I apologize if you are an experienced shooter and are already aware of all this, but the advice is given without malice and to be taken at its face value. I've been humbled too many times by my own eagerness not to think of these things.

k8bor

[Ricochet]

Happy7, I'd try sizing to .430 or .431". That is, if I were shooting gas checked boolits that have to be sized to seat the checks. I'd probably actually shoot unsized boolits if they'll chamber easily in the gun.

[44man]

If the boolit has a check, just run it into a .430 or .431 die just far enough to crimp it. Don't size the whole boolit. Pan lube or put it in with your fingers.