I'm making progress, I think?

[joken]

I'm a rookie at casting and have been having serious leading issues in my 1911 .45's. I'm using Lee dies .452 and the Lee sizer and lube. After spending a half hour cleaning my new Dan Wesson CCO last night I started looking for a solution. The primary causes I read about here were insufficient lube and too hot a load. I was loading 5 gr of red dot under a 230 LRN. More lube didn't help, but backing off on the powder sure did. I shot my Star PD tonight and loaded clear down to 4 grains. There was no leading from 4.5 and below. I didn't work up from 4.5. I slugged the barrel on the Star(first time ever) and it was right at .450. My bullets measured 451. None of the bullets required sizing in the .452 sizer. The lube was the Lee Alox that came with the sizer. Bullet hardness did not seem to be an issue. Am I on track here?

Thanks, Ken

[littlejack]

joken:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
I wouldn't think that velocity in the 45 acp will be an issue. Size matters though. As long as your boolits are .001 over groove size you should be ok. You did not mention the alloy you are using? I have read that any alloy soft or hard will do in a 45 acp, do to the relitivly slow velocity. I do not know if I believe that or not?
Lube can and will present a leading problem in some circustances. Bore condition can and will cause leading if it is rough or has machine marks.
Jack
PS, what part of orygun are you in?

[joken]

Corvallis. Thanks

[littlejack]

Yes sir.
I'm just a few mile south of you, Eugene.

[mroliver77]

Tell us what alloy please. Air cooled or quenched? I run .452 in all 45 acp.

If you cured the leading you are making progress. Too hard of alloy will cause leading sometimes.
Jay

[littlejack]

Ken, I think what Jay means to say about the alloy being too hard, is that the boolit will not obturate (bump up) during ignition of the powder charge. This will create blowby of the hot gasses and start the leading process.
I too use a .452 diameter boolit for my 45.
Jack

[WHITETAIL]

joken, Welcome to the forum!
We need to know if you are too
soft, or too hard a alloy.:cbpour:

[oldandslow]

joken, 12/3/11

Greetings from an OSU alumnus 1974-78. Corvallis is a great town.

I had some problems with a Lee .45 caliber tumble lube mold (TL-452-230-2R) and severe leading no matter what lube I used at normal velocities of 800 f/second. After some great advice from some of the members here I found out the problem. The bullets were dropping at 0.453" but the lube bands were being swaged down to 0.450" when seated and crimped in the brass. Since the bullet body forward of the microlube bands measured 0.420" the hot gases would blow by and make my 3 and 1/2 inch barrel a smooth bore within 24 rounds due to severe leading. So you might pull some bullets after loading and see if they still retain their 0.452" diameter. If they don't then there is your problem.

After multiple experiments with the mold, bullets, brass and loading machine (a Dillon Square Deal B) I just switched to a different mold using conventional lube grooves. Both the Lee 230 grain round nose with two lube grooves and an Accuratemold single lube groove mold work well. I think if the bullet body forward of the Lee tumble lube microgrooves was wider, say 0.452" like the rest of the bullet, I think the bullet and tumble lube (Recluse's 45-45-10) would have worked out OK. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

[Bret4207]

I'm betting Bhn has nothing at all to do with it but fit, boolit design and lube do.

[bobthenailer]

How about bore condtion ? since youre gun is new! did you shoot any jacked through the gun to smoothe up tooling marks ? or shoot some lap bullets to smoothe up the barrel ? since you can remove the barrel put it in a vice and use a rod with a worn brass brush with a tight fitting patch wrapped around it with some fine lapping compond or JB paste for a few hundred strokes to smoothe up the barrel for cast bullet shooting. I have had to do this on a few of my handguns to stop leading.

[Boolseye]

I have that mold, too–never had any leading problems. Try not sizing them and using 45-45-10 (see sticky in lube section). Also (if you are), try skipping the Factory Crimp Die, which case-swages the boolit. Use the seating die to crimp. Are you seating the boolit so that that top band is a thumbnail over the mouth of the case? Finally, if you are pushing them hard, back off a bit. Good luck, let us know how you do.

[MT Gianni]

DId the 5 gr load lead in the star? If not the the issue with your new DW is fit or bbl. How does it feel pushing a tight patch through it? If there are tight spots, shoot 200 j-words through it and recheck. Get a magnifying glass and look at the throat. You should slug it and take a chamber cast if the problems are not readily identifiable.

[357shooter]

I'm betting Bhn has nothing at all to do with it but fit, boolit design and lube do.+1. I learned here that Bhn is down the list of causes, and fixes for leading problems. Experience has proven that to be true. Fit in tems of diameter, and also OAL, design which affects the fit (OAL due to nose design) and lube.

Trying them unsized per prior post is a good first step.

Sometimes one light coat of LLA doesn't do the job. Two coats might work in that case.

Starting with the simple adjustments first is the way to go, IMHO.

[joken]

Here is some more information. I tried two alloys. I only have pure lead so I added 50/50 solder and the pencil test tells me it it 1-20. For the next alloy I have a bunch of oncology lead that was quite hard. I mixed it 50/50 with my pure lead and the pencil test tells me it is Bhn 22. The leading is in my new pistol and the old Star PD so It wouldn't appear to be the new bbl. I measured more boolits this morning and they are not consistant in size measuring anywhere from .45 to .452. I ran them all through the Lee sizer and rarely was one large enough to require sizing. Yes the 5gr load leaded the Star. I'm going to go fool around with the crimp and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for the help. I'll report back later. Ken

[Boolseye]

Joken:
I am currently setting up to lap my TL452-230-2R for the same reason...they are on the small side. That may be a tall order for you as you're just getting started, however you may need to either lap it or Beagle it so that the boolits are large enough. For some reason, some Lee molds are on the small side while others are perfect. If this is a 2-cav, then lapping or beagling is not a huge deal. Mine is a 6 cav, and I'm going to lap every cavity. Even the largest ones are barely oversize, and I like them to be solidly oversize, at least .002. As a reference, my 452-200 SWC (also a Lee) drops them at .454 consistently, and they are one of the most accurate, all around great boolits that I cast, with ZERO leading, even at high velocity (900 fps +).

[357shooter]

Here is some more information. I tried two alloys. I only have pure lead so I added 50/50 solder and the pencil test tells me it it 1-20. For the next alloy I have a bunch of oncology lead that was quite hard. I mixed it 50/50 with my pure lead and the pencil test tells me it is Bhn 22. The leading is in my new pistol and the old Star PD so It wouldn't appear to be the new bbl. I measured more boolits this morning and they are not consistant in size measuring anywhere from .45 to .452. I ran them all through the Lee sizer and rarely was one large enough to require sizing. Yes the 5gr load leaded the Star. I'm going to go fool around with the crimp and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for the help. I'll report back later. Ken
Measuing with a 4 decimal micrometer is important. Calipers, and anything less accurate will round or flex and not provide useful measurements. what are you using?

Inconsistent bullet size is primarily caused by the mould not being fully closed. Make sure it closes flush, and apply some pressure when casting. Another factor is inconsistent mould temp and the temp being low. A mould drops it's largest bullets when just shy of frosting. FYI

[canyon-ghost]

Short of lapping it, load up a couple hundred and shoot the heck out of it! The extra cleaning after shooting each time smooths them up some. Carnuba Red doesn't hurt either.

It won't make your shooting technique worse to practice that much either. I preach what I practice, lol.

Good Luck,
Ron

[Boolseye]

I don't think the issue here is tool chatter, unless it's particularly bad. My RIA has noticeable tool marks in the grooves, and leading has never been an issue. Fit is king.

[joken]

I just ran some rounds without any crimp and guess what? No lead in the star and almost none in the Dan Wesson. I slugged the DW and although the measurements are somewhat subjective, I measured the boolit many times. Depth to groove bottom .451 and top of lands is .442. The Star is .452 and .450. These loads were with 5gr of Red Dot. Should I fool around with a crimp or forget about it? These are plinker loads. Oh, I used the soft boolits for this go round. Thanks, Ken

[joken]

Measuing with a 4 decimal micrometer is important. Calipers, and anything less accurate will round or flex and not provide useful measurements. what are you using?

Inconsistent bullet size is primarily caused by the mould not being fully closed. Make sure it closes flush, and apply some pressure when casting. Another factor is inconsistent mould temp and the temp being low. A mould drops it's largest bullets when just shy of frosting. FYI

I used my lowly RCBS calipers. Thanks for the tips. Ken

[Boolseye]

As long as they're cycling fine, I don't see the issue. As we say in New England, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Now I'm gonna take MY .45 out to the range...have a good one, all.

[littlejack]

Ken, you are using a taper crimp, correct?

[Cherokee]

joken - crimp is really a bad term. What you really want to do is get rid of the bell that was put on the case mouth to facilitate seting the bullet. Just straighten out the case mouth. Some of us do use a slight taper crimp to .470" at the case mouth. Sounds like you found out you don't really crimp the 45 ACP for your guns.

[joken]

Ken, you are using a taper crimp, correct?

Yes sir.

[Mavrick]

Most seat/crimp dies are made for jax bullets, but cast is larger, so you might back the die out some (2-3 turns), screw the seater in until you get the OAL you want, then after seating a bunch, unscrew the seater plug so it no longer touches the boolit, then screw the die in (say 1/4 turn at a time) until it just takes the bell from the case.
In the "before time" we had 4-die sets that did this, now most 'loaders use jax so they can seat and "crimp" at the same time. WE need to go back to that 4-die time.
ALL my .45 is lead, and I shoot competition so there's a LOT, and I load on an RCBS Rockchucker, so it's a labor of love.
FWIW-I load my brother's ammo for competition, and HE uses a .40 S&W. Yes I spend some time at the bench!
Have fun,
Gene

[Bret4207]

I just ran some rounds without any crimp and guess what? No lead in the star and almost none in the Dan Wesson. I slugged the DW and although the measurements are somewhat subjective, I measured the boolit many times. Depth to groove bottom .451 and top of lands is .442. The Star is .452 and .450. These loads were with 5gr of Red Dot. Should I fool around with a crimp or forget about it? These are plinker loads. Oh, I used the soft boolits for this go round. Thanks, Ken

There you go, fit was the answer yet again. You're "squishing" the boolit when you were crimping. You already had marginally large enough boolits and then you made them even smaller. You found your answer, good for you!:D