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View Full Version : defensive ranges are very close, 10 ft



trench
12-02-2011, 06:08 PM
or so, and the pattern of your shotgun is but 1" wide per yard of forward travel from the muzzle (unchoked barrel and 00 buckshot). Most attacks are not made with a gun, check out the Dept of Justice website for the Annual Crime Survey. So it makes far more sense to ccw a pistol around your house than to count upon being able to run and get any sort of longarm.

you also want a AA cell flashlight, preferably also always carried with you, at least when it's dark, with a side button, not the silly, expensive ones with the button on the butt of the light. Then, your weak hand's thumb can encircle the light, holding the light and gun in a normal 2 handed firing position, not some hokey, bass ackwards version of a grip! The side button lets you turn the light off and on.

Me, in my house, I'm TURNING ON THE LIGHTS if I think there's an invader. I'm not wanderiing around in the dark, showing a light, letting him see and hear me coming, and letting him "jump" me, throw a crowbar at me from the dark, etc. The flashlight is just for checking unlighted sheds, the yard, etc, and you really SHOULD have a dog and lights back there, anyway. Few burlgars, etc, carry guns, or can hit jack squat with one if they do have it. Pointing a gun-light and the gun, too, at people is a bad idea. I want the light held separetely from the gun. That "invader" is probably your kid, come in late, etc. Don't risk suffering the horror of shooting a loved one, guys.

It doesn't need to be a big, mean dog, just one that barks at strangers. Big dogs are too likely to get you sued for tearing up some little kid that lets him out, and they cost a lot to feed, too.

A fast man, starting from a standing position, can cover 10 ft in 1.0 second, 20 ft in 1.5 seconds, 30 ft in 2.5 seconds, having built up some speed as he came, you see. Drop a coin from as high as you can hold it, it will hit the floor in 1.0 second. Drop it from waist height, it hits the floor in 1/2 second. You can and should learn to get 5-6 hits per second with a good handgun, guys. Don't hesitate, don't turn your back, and be sure to wear ear protection and use cover whenever possible.

A powerful gun, used indoors, is horrifically loud. In fact, the flash and blast of a 12 ga load is so bad that it can nearly make you drop the gun! I kid you not! The difference between magnum buckshot and a trap load is tremendous, when fired indoors, don't kid yourself about this. If you can go get a gun, you have time to put on a set of electronic muffs, too, and turn them on, or insert a $30 set of Norton "earvalve" ear plugs. Then you can hear normal sounds, but your ears will be protected by the blast. the flashes, at night, indoors, will steal your (night-adapted) vision, rendering you blind in the dark, if you don't have a light. Bird shot pellets often bounce back from even telephone poles. I had a bunch of such pellets almost imbed themselves in my shins after such a shot. So they can strike your face after hitting, say, the refrigerator! There's a LOT more to having the odds heavily in your favor in a defensive situation than simply picking up a 12 ga.

Hastings
12-02-2011, 06:58 PM
My wife puts up with a lot, like me using the stove in the kitchen for making boolit lube. Unfortunately, she draws the line when it comes to shooting my 12 gauge indoors.

Catshooter
12-02-2011, 07:31 PM
[QUOTE=trench;1486379 Drop a coin from as high as you can hold it, it will hit the floor in 1.0 second. Drop it from waist height, it hits the floor in 1/2 second.


You can and should learn to get 5-6 hits per second guys.

.[/QUOTE]



Some of what you say is somewhat sensible. The coin to the floor, well, not so much. Slept through science class, did we?

Five or six hits per second? My, that's some fast shooting there pard.

Did you used to have a tactical wheelbarrow? You do sound familar . . .

Hastings,

That was funny right there. :)



Cat

geargnasher
12-02-2011, 07:43 PM
I wonder how the DA would spin it if you actually were forced to shoot an intruder with a 12-gauge pumpgun while holding the appropriate side-button light and while wearing electronic, amplification/suppression earmuffs?? Really, is a jury going to believe you were FORCED to if you shoot a bad guy while so equipped?

Gear

Lonegun1894
12-02-2011, 07:59 PM
I can appreciate the idea of using hearing protection while shooting, but personally, I have fired weapons indoors without hearing protection, and I dont recommend making a practice of it without protecting your hearing. BUT, there's a huge difference between protecting me and mine with all the adrenaline that goes with it, and practicing. If practicing, and you have a way to practice live-fire indoors, absolutely protect your ears. However, if a situation actually happens, my hearing is the least of my concerns. I would rather live than waste time.

As to the light, well, we do need to be absolutely sure it is a threat and not a loved one, but there's different training levels represented here on this forum, and we all need to practice and see what each of us prefers. What works for one may not work for another, but as long as we all survive the incident (or even better not have it happen) there is no wrong way, just different ways. I will personally use different tactics if it is just me and the threat as opposed to if it is me trying to deal with a threat while having loved ones too close for comfort. And I'm sure most feel the same way.

garym1a2
12-02-2011, 08:21 PM
I have to agree on choice. I could do a lot better with my glock than my 870.
17 rounds is a lot better than 5

edler7
12-02-2011, 08:37 PM
Pointing a gun-light and the gun, too, at people is a bad idea. I want the light held separetely from the gun.

I don't think it's as bad an idea as shooting a 12ga. magnum load with one hand.

YMMV

canyon-ghost
12-02-2011, 08:59 PM
No shotgun, and yes, they are all loud. Surely a handgun will work.

1Shirt
12-02-2011, 09:04 PM
Bedroom gun: Short bbl but legal 20 g. Cyl&Cy. Rest of the house handgun of choice.
1Shirt!:coffee:

ItZaLLgooD
12-02-2011, 09:10 PM
Maybe we should sleep with our electronic ear muffs on:-P

edler7
12-02-2011, 10:10 PM
Maybe we should sleep with our electronic ear muffs on


The woman that sleeps next to me snores loud enough for them to kick in.

Kraschenbirn
12-03-2011, 12:05 AM
Bedroom gun: Short bbl but legal 20 g. Cyl&Cy. Rest of the house handgun of choice.
1Shirt!:coffee:

+1 'cept mine's an old 12 ga. Rossi "Coach Gun" with #7 1/2 skeet loads in both barrels (with my SP101 and a full cylinder of 125 gr +P JHPs as back-up).

Bill

Oh yeah, the wife keeps her 4" Diamondback in a drawer of the nightstand on her side of the bed, too.

Piedmont
12-03-2011, 12:13 AM
I wonder how the DA would spin it if you actually were forced to shoot an intruder with a 12-gauge pumpgun while holding the appropriate side-button light and while wearing electronic, amplification/suppression earmuffs?? Really, is a jury going to believe you were FORCED to if you shoot a bad guy while so equipped?

Gear

That would never come up unless you got a bad case of the stupids and diarrhea of the mouth at the same time. The DA wasn't there. You would need to take off the muffs to call the cops after the event was over, anyway. It wouldn't be prudent to answer the door with the shotgun and flashlight either. Say as little as possible to the cops and let your lawyer do all the rest of your talking for you.

mpmarty
12-03-2011, 12:23 AM
Officer I was scared to death and don't even remember exactly what happened.

kelbro
12-03-2011, 12:25 AM
Say as little as possible to the cops and let your lawyer do all the rest of your talking for you.

Excellent plan.

Jim
12-03-2011, 02:21 AM
Five to six shots per second, huh? Sure, that ain't no problem. I can give Jerry Miculek a run for his money any day, right?

Suo Gan
12-03-2011, 02:43 AM
It is good to have a plan and stick with it, I agree. These kind of things happen in the middle of Vanna White sitting next to you at your private beach outside your chalet in the South of France, and right as she fetches you your second mint julip...YOU WAKE UP and wonder what the heck woke you up. Then you hear something again. Was that the dog barking? YEP GLASS BREAKING for sure!! There aint no time to be some kind of Hank Hill and put your hearing protection on for cripes sake. Just get armed get your family safe and take cover and don't turn the light on behind you. You don't want some hearing protection dulling your senses, don't give away your position by shining a tiny light somewhere.

I am blind, and dang near stone deaf. A little dog or two are a real bonus for guys like me. The dirt bags that dropped off my dogs to let them starve are probably the same ones that will come and rob me later so the dogs might eventually get their revenge.

One of our friends spent over 100 thousand dollars on a security system and another 200 thousand on a fence!! They can call it and view their house on the net, and on and on. A guy can get carried away I think. Those little dogs are at least half as good as their system so is that 150 thousand? And I got them for free! You get a couple of little dogs around and they don't miss much. They can even tell the mail mans car from a stranger! Can a security system do that?

ku4hx
12-03-2011, 08:08 AM
Hmmmm ... six hits in 1 second. Assuming the clock starts on shot one and ends on shot six, that means an accurately placed shot every 200 milliseconds on average. I 'spose it can be done. But as most of us who happen to be married know, we men can't reliably hit the water in the dark in the middle of the night. And the water ain't even moving.

Charlie Two Tracks
12-03-2011, 08:14 AM
we men can't reliably hit the water in the dark in the middle of the night. And the water ain't even moving.

that's a good one ku4hx!

Bret4207
12-03-2011, 08:42 AM
What exactly is the purpose of the OP beyond starting a conversation with your opinions? Is there some event that triggered this post or something in the latest issue of American Handguner or what?

41 mag fan
12-03-2011, 08:48 AM
You get a couple of little dogs around and they don't miss much. They can even tell the mail mans car from a stranger! Can a security system do that?


Our yellow lab we have out back, can tell when someones pulling in the drive, and can even tell when wee get home by the sound of our vehicles.

I've proven it to my wife before, I'm about 40% deaf, but I can hear good enough I can tell when our vehicles or the kids are coming down the road, by the sound of their tires.
I think our labs the same way, she'll start barking before we even get to within 500' of our drive.




The woman that sleeps next to me snores loud enough for them to kick in.


Hah, I've had to replace the shingles over our bedroom 3 times in the last 10 yrs.
Wife snors so loud she raises the shingles. She's actually started pulling the dry wall nails out from the ceiling. I had to replace them with 5" long deck screws to hold the ceiling up.

41 mag fan
12-03-2011, 08:51 AM
Lots of times, in a defensive situation, just the sound of jacking a shell into a pump shotgun will scare the hell out of a criminal.
I heard that once on a defensive video. Jacking a shell into the chamber is a universally recognized sound everyone knows.

bobthenailer
12-03-2011, 08:55 AM
we men can't reliably hit the water in the dark in the middle of the night. And the water ain't even moving.

that's a good one ku4hx!

Maybe they make night sights for them thinggies ?
IMO 5 to 6 shots in a second could be done but with what type of accuracy ? 3 or 4 seems more realistic for the average shooter, with good accuracy at ranges of 10 to 25 feet im talking shoe box lid size groups !
not spray & pray

winelover
12-03-2011, 09:30 AM
I keep my electronic muffs as well as a surefire, on the floor by my side of the bed. Just above, is my HP in a holster attached to the bedframe which is hidden beneath the bed skirt. Our bedroom is on the second floor. Probably would have time to put them on. I have terrible hearing and the would help in assertaining any movement downstairs. Since we are alone in the house, any noise would be from an intruder. I have no intention of going to look for trouble but woe to anyone that tries to enter the bedroom cause we have no where to retreat. YMMV.

Winelover

Slinger
12-03-2011, 09:52 AM
If you can get 5-6 hits a second coming out of a dead sleep in the middle of the night, you need to shoot competitively on the pro circuit. You'll be a moneymaker. I'll stick my neck out and say 99.9% of the shooters can't do 5-6 in 1 second in broad daylight with everything in their favor, let alone in the middle of the night. It's not how fast you shoot, it's where you hit & with what.

rintinglen
12-03-2011, 09:58 AM
Onliest thing I fully believe in is not having the light on the gun. "Never point a gun at anything you are not ready to shoot." If that doesn't ring a bell, it will after the DA reads it when you are on trial for shooting your teen-aged daughter's boyfriend who snuck in and startled you while you were checking "that funny noise."
5 shots a second? Shoot fast, miss fast.

MT Gianni
12-03-2011, 10:49 AM
Lots of times, in a defensive situation, just the sound of jacking a shell into a pump shotgun will scare the hell out of a criminal.
I heard that once on a defensive video. Jacking a shell into the chamber is a universally recognized sound everyone knows.

As is the sound of a slide on a 45. Yes mine is loaded but that sound should be enough of a warning. I like the rear button flashlights but was trained to clear a room with the flashlight at the end of the reach of my left arm. I also practice one handed shooting. If your target is 3 yards away and your gun has a 3" pattern, why should you shoot buckshot over #4? At 10 feet penetration and stopping power will not be an issue.

white eagle
12-03-2011, 11:01 AM
What exactly is the purpose of the OP beyond starting a conversation with your opinions? Is there some event that triggered this post or something in the latest issue of American Handguner or what?

what if syndrome [smilie=p:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:

Ronbo256
12-03-2011, 11:49 AM
6 well placed shots in a second? Every month I shoot the "Bill Drill", my best time is 3.80 seconds before adjusting for the "points down" shots, and I can't do that well every month. The best shooters at our club shoot in the low 3's adjusted. Yes Jerry Miculek can put 12 rounds in the zero down area with a reload on a 625 in 3 seconds, but 99.9999% of us aren't in his league. If I have a pistol/shotgun drawn on an intruder, I'm really hoping I don't have to pull the trigger. No one is going to get to hear the slide rack on my 1911, or hear me jack a round into an 870, the rounds are already where they belong.

HammerMTB
12-03-2011, 12:29 PM
Well, it's an entertaining post if nothing else. Like a part of the anatomy, everyone's got an opinion. Most think everyone else's stink.
6 shots in a second is pretty preposterous, tho. A vid of the OP showing us all how it's done would be a real learning experience for all of us with 30 or more years of combat handgun action game practice and competition.
I shoot Bill Drills in the low 2's. Even been known to break a 1 point niner from time to time. But that's in the .22 class. Any C/F handgun, no way. Not me, nor any of the master class or nationally ranked shooters I play the game with.
Problem is, a bit of errant info in the middle of a worthwhile post takes a lot away from the credibility of the poster. I have an 18" 870 at the ready as my sleepytime go-to. you won't dissuade me from its use. There are plenty of reasons why, but I'm not detailing them all here.
From time to time it's a good thing to play out a scenario or 2 in one's mind about what to do "if"
Whether or not the internet is a good place to do that, well, everyone will have an opinion.

Recluse
12-03-2011, 01:06 PM
I wonder how the DA would spin it if you actually were forced to shoot an intruder with a 12-gauge pumpgun while holding the appropriate side-button light and while wearing electronic, amplification/suppression earmuffs?? Really, is a jury going to believe you were FORCED to if you shoot a bad guy while so equipped?

Gear

Yep.

There is so much wrong with the original post that not only do I not know where to start. . . I don't even have the energy to.

This kind of garbage doesn't need to be here in the forum where the discussion is about casting boolits.

Probably more aprapros for "Humor & Off Topic."

:coffee:

ku4hx
12-03-2011, 01:35 PM
Night sights are one solution but you still got to aim; wife and I prefer lasers. And that preference is borne of a real life intrusion situation. Aiming takes time, laser pointing takes less time ... for us anyway.

BruceB
12-03-2011, 02:48 PM
I agree that the discussion is wildly out of place, especially on this specialized Board..

On reading the thread, I seem to hear strong echoes pf "Gunkid" and "plus-P", neither of whom are missed in the least....in fact, I APPRECIATE their absence. I dearly hope that this isn't the re-incarnation of those bozos.

Those here who endured the ravings of those two will know very well what I mean by this.

MBTcustom
12-03-2011, 05:25 PM
I deleted my earlier post and apologize for my forceful manner/bad language.

gray wolf
12-03-2011, 08:08 PM
Most important !!!!!!!!!!!
Good comfortable shoes to negotiate the different rooms in the house.
Water at strategic places in case you get dry mouth.
A few practice targets placed at the proper locations throughout the house.
Tactical vest at the bedside with extra ammo and mags or speed loaders.
Shooting trophies placed around in different places with a little light on them so there visible.
16X20 color picture of you firing 6 shots in 1 second. Placed in a well lit part of the house.
Try to show a little bit of the timer in the Photo.
another photo of you in black tactical gear hanging out of a jet ranger chopper, or repelling.
Soldier of fortune Magazines threw-out the house.
Bronze statue of you on the lawn bench pressing 300 pounds.
a FEW HOUSE HOLD CHEMICALS MIXED IN THE PROPER PROPORTIONS
THERE THAT ABOUT COVERS IT ---ANY QUESTIONS ???

.5mv^2
12-03-2011, 08:16 PM
My niece and her Pakistani husband came to visit a couple years ago. They live in a major city. One morning they announced that that had found a use for our hearing protectors. They put them on at night so that they wouldn't hear the outside noises. Dogs, coyotes etc.

Had a big laugh and vowed to give our guns to the NRA, not them.

GaryN
12-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Dang Greywolf it sounds like you got it covered. But you forgot the claymore.

Jim
12-03-2011, 10:34 PM
How 'bout a motion sensor activated 105 trained on the driveway?

gandydancer
12-03-2011, 11:17 PM
O man lighten up. Bah-Humbug.

gandydancer
12-03-2011, 11:19 PM
What exactly is the purpose of the OP beyond starting a conversation with your opinions? Is there some event that triggered this post or something in the latest issue of American Handguner or what?
O man lighten up. Bah-Humbug.

Recluse
12-04-2011, 05:07 AM
O man lighten up. Bah-Humbug.

The name of the forum is "Cast Boolits" -- NOT "zombie-hunting and mass-extermination of possible perps who might invade your home while you're in the shower shaking your wee-wee and away from your bang-bang."

It's about pouring boolits out of molten lead.

If this Rambo wannabe wants to enlighten the non-military and non-LE members as to his supposed "expertise" in matters of real by-God life and death, then maybe take it over to Off-Topic because his views and opinions, to be sure, are certainly more in line with the "Humor" portion of THAT forum rather than the "Casting Boolits" of this forum.

:coffee:

Bret4207
12-04-2011, 08:54 AM
O man lighten up. Bah-Humbug.

Just wondering if the guy had some event that triggered the post. Plusm this is his second post where he's made some...controversial statements, and never returned to discuss what he said. I'm still waiting to find out all about "flame cutting" from another post.

Lee W
12-04-2011, 09:40 AM
This should be moved to the pit. This is the wrong place for this topic. I have noticed the turn of "The Pit" to something like the Arfcom "General Discussion " board. I feel that is not the way Cast Boolits should go.

This forum has been very good at keeping on topic for several years and I fear that is going away.

Is there a way to select the sections of the board you want to see when you hit the "new threads" button? I would remove anything from "the pit".

BTW, me shooting .20 to .23 split times using the pistol pictured to the left.

http://s559.photobucket.com/albums/ss37/Whyte_album/?action=view&current=Movie.mp4

HammerMTB
12-04-2011, 12:09 PM
What!
No armor? You need to spec Level IIIA or IV
Lordy mercy!
We won't know what to do!
Set us straight quick!
And let's not forget the neck and sides- you can't be over-armored in your bedroom, y'know.
:brokenima


Most important !!!!!!!!!!!
Good comfortable shoes to negotiate the different rooms in the house.
Water at strategic places in case you get dry mouth.
A few practice targets placed at the proper locations throughout the house.
Tactical vest at the bedside with extra ammo and mags or speed loaders.
Shooting trophies placed around in different places with a little light on them so there visible.
16X20 color picture of you firing 6 shots in 1 second. Placed in a well lit part of the house.
Try to show a little bit of the timer in the Photo.
another photo of you in black tactical gear hanging out of a jet ranger chopper, or repelling.
Soldier of fortune Magazines threw-out the house.
Bronze statue of you on the lawn bench pressing 300 pounds.
a FEW HOUSE HOLD CHEMICALS MIXED IN THE PROPER PROPORTIONS
THERE THAT ABOUT COVERS IT ---ANY QUESTIONS ???

mdi
12-04-2011, 01:24 PM
Mebbe the OP was pouring boolits in his sleep and was awakened by a hoard of terrorists crawling in his front window! That would be why this waste of bandwidth is in the Cast Bullets forum...

MBTcustom
12-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Just reading.
I wish the O.P. had time to comment.

crabo
12-04-2011, 02:13 PM
Just reading.
I wish the O.P. had time to comment.

If I had made the post and got these responses, and wanted to stay on the forum, I would probably unsubscribe and reincarnate myself.

Russel Nash
12-04-2011, 02:36 PM
I'm with Bret on this one. The original post seems to come out of left field, and considering the experiences the people on this good forum have and the times they were forced to read Guns and Ammo magazine while waiting at the barber shop, it seems like so much preaching to the choir.

there are some fast shooters out there, no doubt. National and world championship level competitors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAnnK63PqF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3txtcVLLrc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beF4r_wMtac

and they pretty shoot for a living.

fredj338
12-05-2011, 11:41 AM
Obviously your opinion & some points I can agree. For most people, it's a very personnal decision. What works well for you or me not so well for others. I try no to sound like my way is best, but then I understand that we all don;t live in the same space or have the same abilities.

mpmarty
12-05-2011, 12:08 PM
Tripple "A" Amusing, Anecdotal and Asenine

This is not what I joined Cast Boolits for. Sorry.

Love Life
12-05-2011, 12:44 PM
How 'bout a motion sensor activated 105 trained on the driveway?

I thought you had one of those in a double barrel platform. Or is yours the model that doesn't have the motion sensors?

SciFiJim
12-05-2011, 11:08 PM
Maybe they make night sights for them thinggies ?


Maybe we all need to get glow in the dark ghost ring sights to aim through. :oops:

Russel Nash
12-06-2011, 01:28 AM
I keep Night Vision Goggles next to my bed instead.
:kidding:

mongo
12-06-2011, 02:07 AM
#1 a pistol #2 a good flashlight #3 posititive ID the threat Forget about ear protection, You won't hear any shots or be able to tell how many shots you have fired. But you will feel and hear your heart beating in your head,

Piedmont
12-06-2011, 04:30 AM
So is that how you get to be a moderator? Just pretend you are one and tell everyone what you approve of and what you don't?

Bret4207
12-06-2011, 08:17 AM
Generally the Mods here get the job by having the good sense to put their posts in the appropriate sections and follow up their posts with interesting and intelligent discussion of the subject. Drive by posting in the improper area is something we should all be trying not to do.