Thinkin About Building a Frankenrifle

[grullaguy]

I have always admired the work done by the custom flintlock builders. I really wish I had that skill set, but I do not. I also have spent far too much money on shooting related stuff in the past year...., but I really want a squirrel rifle.[smilie=l:

I figure that if I buy a piece here and a piece there over the next few years and then assemble the parts with as much skill as I can muster, I might have a decent gun which won't break the bank.

I am thinking a .36 Kentucky style (I alrady have a .350 mould), with a percussion lock. It is really wet here, otherwise I would consider a flintlock.
I say it will be a Frankenrifle, because I will be shopping by price and opportunity and will likely not replicate any historical style.

Has anyone else here done something similar? Pictures?

[waksupi]

After nearly 40 years experience, I can tell you that a flintlock can be less problems in the damp than a cap lock is. Cap locks draw moisture quicker it seems. When it comes a rain storm at our shoots, the cap lock shooters have to leave the range, the flinters just keep on shooting.

I would get the stock first, followed by the barrel. Those parts take longest for delivery. The small parts are easily acquired.

Some flint rifles and fowlers I have built.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=127351

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=77646

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72073

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=47725

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60713

[Potsy]

Traditions may still build their little .32 Crockett Half-Stock Rifle.
$1200-$1500 should get you a really nice little flint (or cap) squirrel rifle from TVM, Tip Curtis, or several others.
Unless I had plenty of hand tools and time I'd think hard about buying one finished. I'm a couple of years into a good kit (granted, with a couple of 6 month breaks). I still want to take it up as a hobby so I'm not griping. Hoping to retire someday and have something to do.

[grullaguy]

Traditions may still build their little .32 Crockett Half-Stock Rifle.
$1200-$1500 should get you a really nice little flint (or cap) squirrel rifle from TVM, Tip Curtis, or several others.
Unless I had plenty of hand tools and time I'd think hard about buying one finished. I'm a couple of years into a good kit (granted, with a couple of 6 month breaks). I still want to take it up as a hobby so I'm not griping. Hoping to retire someday and have something to do.

Waksupi shamed me by showing such beautiful work. How can I, in clear conscience, create what I had in mind? My hopes were inline with what a convict might make in his cell.

I guess I will be further ahead to create a squirrel rifle fund. When it is sufficiently filled, I will contact someone like Waksupi to build the gun. I have too many guns, so I could always sell a few to help along such a project.

[Potsy]

Uh, oh yeah, don't forget Waksupi!!
Great looking rifles btw. That transitional rifle went in a couple of directions I never thought about (particularly the carving on the patchbox lid).
Hope to get there someday, way on down the line.

[excess650]

I would suggest that you look at the various styles or schools or rifles, choose one, and then purchase the parts. Track Of The Wolf has a good online site, so spend some time there looking before you buy parts. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Index.aspx

Too, don't buy your parts by price alone. Spend a little extra if necessary to get known good quality parts.

Petaconica River has a decent site http://www.longrifles-pr.com/

as does Muzzleloader Builder Supply http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/

Don't feel obligated to build a carved, engraved, inlayed rilfe to hunt with. I prefer a nice piece of wood without patchbox, or with a sliding wooden lid (early) over one with a hinged brass lid. Too, keep in mind that a small contour barrel in .36 is going to be better balanced than one of larger contour (swamped or across the flats).

A 36cal percussion Jaeger or transitional style would be ridiculous.

[docone31]

Get the stock Pre-inlet. Since the cutouts are proud any way, you can just as well inlet from scratch.
It sounds like you are wanting to build a Vincent rifle.
You can do it. Just go slow and get as much info as you can.
Several good DVDs on rifle building by James Turpin. Get them both.
Great stuff.
You will get most of your questions answered.
Another thought, Cabelas has a Traditions rifle. The barrel is pretty good, the lock and trigger are so-so. The do fire well.
You could start with that, get a stock, inlet everything, get the feel for things. You can make your mistakes on that, and have a sample to help you with intallation.
Then as you can, they make replacement locks for the CVA/Traditions, replacement triggers, etc. I do not like their stock lines. If I were to do what you are proposing, that is what I would do to start.
Either way, it will still look good. I am not sure, a lot of the older rifles weren't Frankenrifles themselves.
Makes sense to go with a stock. That way, you can see if it is really something you want to do.

[Potsy]

Spend 10 bucks and get a Track of the Wolf catalog. You can learn a lot flipping through it.
Look at different guns on there website as well.
Between that, looking around here, and on the American Longrifle Forum, you'll either get a better idea of what you want to buy built, or you'll jump in with both feet and build one.

[williamwaco]

I am thinking a .36 Kentucky style (I alrady have a .350 mould), with a percussion lock. It is really wet here, otherwise I would consider a flintlock.




Guy,

I have never fired a black powder firearm of any kind. I have no personal experience with any of them.

I have a "range friend" I see at the range about once a week. Except for a .44 Magnum "Mare's leg" and a .44Mag Ruger blackhawk. He shoots nothing but black powder. He built all his rifles. This guy is so talented that he built a matchlock from blank steel stock with hand tools by looking at photos.

He says he prefers the flintlock. Unfortunately I didn't ask why. I will do that next time I see him.

I have seen him shoot clover leaves at 100 yards with traditional sights. He has the most amazing eyes I have ever witnessed. He can spot .22 caliber holes at 50 yards with his "bare eyes".

Anyway, I digress. The point is don't sell the flint lock short.




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[grullaguy]

Yes, at this point I only know I want a .36 Longrifle. Style, design etc are up in the air. I love the kits on Track of the Wolf, but suffer wallet pain every time I look at them. I am really new to black powder shooting, having got a CVA Hawken in .50 about a month ago.

[waksupi]

Yes, at this point I only know I want a .36 Longrifle. Style, design etc are up in the air. I love the kits on Track of the Wolf, but suffer wallet pain every time I look at them. I am really new to black powder shooting, having got a CVA Hawken in .50 about a month ago.

Don't let the wallet pain put you off. Ask Ajax about getting a "bargain" on rifle parts.

[Ajax]

If I had it to do over i would have bought it piece by piece before i would buy a bargain kit. I got mine from sitting fox muzzleloaders. The kit was a full of issues like a bark inclusion, wrong trigger and guard and poor inletting. It took 2 months to get the kit straight to begin the build. Luckily i was having Waksupi build it so he dealt with the dealer for me.


Andy

[StrawHat]

I started with a kit from DGW and quickly learned about Turners return policy. I now buy nearly all of my parts from the Log Cabin Shop as I can walk in there and see what I am getting. Sometimes, a bargain really is a bargain. Other times, as Ajax learned, not so much.

Anyway, building a rifle is not too difficult, if you have some talent for translating what you see on paper to metal and wood. Take your time and remove stuff slowly. Hand tools are best for a beginner. Power tools create mistakes much faster.

And just so you don't think everyone who is building creates masterpieces like Waksupi does, I will post a picture of a rifle I needed to build in 2 hours. This is my .22 Underhammer. .22 because that is the barrel I had on hand and underhammer because it was the fastest action for me to build.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Underhammer22001-1.jpg

The original sights were variations on eye screws and it actually grouped okay.

[excess650]

Take a look at Dunlaps kits. This particular kit is the 38" swamped barrel "Haines" and is a real treat to handle. http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/ComponentSets/TransitionIsaacHainesRifle.php

scroll down and watch the "gallery" to see before and after....

I have one built about 20 years ago, and bought it finished for less $ than the parts kit. Mine is the smaller contour barrel in 45cal and weighs right at 8#. A smaller caliber will be heavier. While I prefer flint, a percussion would be OK as they were often converted later. Too, there need be no patchbox or nosecap if you just want a plain rifle.

If you don't like maple, curly or not so curly, he can and will supply a stock in cherry or walnut.

Longer barrels will be heavier(obviously), and swapmed barrels (tapered and flared octagon) give good balance with a lesser weight than a comparable straight octagon barrel.

Later style stocks usually have more drop and narrower buttplates, and tight crescents at that. Some of them are downright ridiculous! Combined with a long, straight barrel, they handle like a plugged sewer pipe UNLESS you stay with 3/4" or 13/16" octagon.

My suggestion would be to step up to a .40cal so as to be able to use a 3/8" ramrod. I think that you'll find most or all of the kits will be drilled and routed for a 3/8" rod anyway. At .36cal you're stuck with 5/16".

[waksupi]

Strawhat, I find that darn interesting, thanks for posting it!

[Hang Fire]

I am thinking a .36 Kentucky style (I alrady have a .350 mould), with a percussion lock. It is really wet here, otherwise I would consider a flintlock.

Has anyone else here done something similar? Pictures?

Really no problem with a rocklock in the wet. The following served me well for seven years when lived in Alaskan coastal area.

I just take malleable mixture of bees wax and Howard Feed & Wax and use a little to seal off edges of pan and the top area of lock to barrel. I then top it off with felt lined rawhide cow's knee which was varnished and sealed water proof.

I like the wet formed custom fit rawhide cow’s knee, once dried and sealed it snaps on & off with a spring action, If one checks closely in Wally World, can find the very large rawhide doggie bones. I submerge in water and let soak for 24 hours.

Liberally apply by hand some Feed & Wax overall from the wrist up to past the lock area, then wrap the area well several times with some plastic and with string tie securely in place.

Remove the Rawhide and separate, select a large piece sufficient for project, blot well with cloth and drape over wrist/lock area. Hand form the damp rawhide into areas for a custom fit. With felt pen mark off rawhide as desired for shape, insuring it will be well oversized as it will shrink once dried, then cut off excess.

I then use bungee cords to tightly secure rawhide to form fitted areas and use more bungees to secure the entire piece. Let rawhide thoroughly dry and remove. As the rawhide now opens and closes like a spring, I prop it open a little with wood dowels and apply a coat of spar varnish inside, when dry, I put on another coat. After both coats of varnish have dried, I spray the inside lightly with 3-M adhesive, take a piece of green felt cloth. (which has also been sprayed with 3-M) and make a fold with sprayed side out. I place a 1/2'” wood dowel (which is longer than rawhide) into fold and carefully insert felt inside the rawhide without making contact with rawhide. Find curvature center and firmly press fold down with dowel, then remove dowel, using fingers and working out from centers, press the felt firmly down until all is adhered. then trim excess felt to edge of rawhide. I then spray felt with Atsko waterproofing stain repellent silicone spray but other clear silicone water repellent sprays should work. If rawhide cow’s knee is too large, I use a pair of Wiss tin snips and trim to size and shape .

I also apply 3 coats of spar varnish to outside of cow’s knee, sealing all edges well. It can now be left as is, painted an earth tone, or with designs of choice.

I also use hair on elk rawhide hide cut from rear knee joints, but have found most deer knee hides to be too small for use.

One can also make or buy a satisfactory cow’s knee made with water proofed soft or hard leather, but personally I have never cared for them.

[Hang Fire]

Over the years I have put together several flinters and percussion pieces.

It is not that hard, but patience is a virtue. Study and lay out the project, and before making any move, study that well several times. Removing wood and metal is easy, replacing it, not so much.

I stocked this fusile chasse 20 balls to the pound smooth bore years ago, the way it mounts to the shoulder and on target makes it my favorite long gun by far. Is iron mounted, an L&R lock with a 46" Getz swamped barrel and weighs in at just over 7 pounds.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/P1010034.JPG


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Fusildechasse2-1.jpg



This plain hunting rifle was the last gun I put together few years back, it is .54 caliber, left hand L&R lock with a 38” Getz swamped barrel and weighs in just under 7 pounds.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/FOUR.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Two.jpg


This is a .45 caliber percussion pistol made up for daughter one time.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Pistol.jpg

[grullaguy]

As I look at the various longrifle kits available, it seems odd that 32s and 36s would come with a 1 in 48" twist. They will only ever shoot patched round balls, so why the compromise rifling?

If I do make a gun for myself, I think I will keep it simple and make a 36 Hawken or H&A syle under hammer rabbit gun. The Hawken would be a bit unconventional, but hopefully the purists would not lynch me. I like my .50 Hawken, so I could use it as a guide when building the smaller rifle.

[waksupi]

Build a .36 Hawken, and it is gonna be one heavy sumbitch!

[grullaguy]

Build a .36 Hawken, and it is gonna be one heavy sumbitch!

I don't understand. Why would the same size barrel in a Kentucky rifle be lighter?

Is it because the Hawken would look strange with a swamped barrel or is it because of how the weight is distributed?
I have an original plains rifle with a Golcher lock on it. It is one heavy sumbitch as well. All the weight is forward. The barrel is 1" on the flats.

I will try to handle some of the other black powder shooter's guns when I am at the next shoot and see how they balance. That might be a good first step.

I am glad I am getting these responses as I am a bp novice with a lot of big ideas. (Like most novices)

[waksupi]

Hawkens didn't have swamped barrels. To stay with the standard lines, you would end up with a rifle around 14-15# in a .36 caliber. Kinda heavy for the squirrel woods. For a proper Hawken, you would most likely have a tapered barrel, that would still be a heavy old pig.
To me, a Hawken is a horse back rifle. Heavy duty, built to withstand a lot of heavy use. That's fine, but if YOU are going to hump it in the woods, they can grow burdensome, real fast. Darn few of us are going to use them in a really hard use situation. Be realistic.
Go with an eastern design, that were meant as a walking rifle, you will generally be happier, if you are going to hunt with it. A Pennsylvania style rifle with a swamped barrel is a joy to carry for long periods. That's why the long hunters carried them. They generally weren't horseback hunters.


I don't understand. Why would the same size barrel in a Kentucky rifle be lighter?

Is it because the Hawken would look strange with a swamped barrel or is it because of how the weight is distributed?
I have an original plains rifle with a Golcher lock on it. It is one heavy sumbitch as well. All the weight is forward. The barrel is 1" on the flats.

I will try to handle some of the other black powder shooter's guns when I am at the next shoot and see how they balance. That might be a good first step.

I am glad I am getting these responses as I am a bp novice with a lot of big ideas. (Like most novices)

[crabo]

One can also make or buy a satisfactory cow’s knee made with water proofed soft or hard leather, but personally I have never cared for them.

Beautiful guns you built. Do you have a picture of the finished knee?

[Hang Fire]

Beautiful guns you built. Do you have a picture of the finished knee?

No, don't have pics, as don't need the knees down here in this part of AZ, somehow the ones I had wound up with grandson and son-in-law in WY.

[Hang Fire]

Hawkens didn't have swamped barrels. To stay with the standard lines, you would end up with a rifle around 14-15# in a .36 caliber. Kinda heavy for the squirrel woods. For a proper Hawken, you would most likely have a tapered barrel, that would still be a heavy old pig.


You are so right, this .56 caliber Hawken of mine has a 36" Bill Large tapered barrel and comes in at about 12 pounds.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/6slb2_op_483x600.jpg

[grullaguy]

To me, a Hawken is a horse back rifle. Heavy duty, built to withstand a lot of heavy use. That's fine, but if YOU are going to hump it in the woods, they can grow burdensome, real fast. Darn few of us are going to use them in a really hard use situation. Be realistic.

I hadn't really thought that through. I did go hunting with the Hawken for one day. I walked into a good location overlooking several deer trails and sat down at the base of a tree.

Not a very effective way to hunt rabbits.

We don't have any edible squirrels here. They are the size of chipmunks and mostly eat spruce and pine cones.

[Southron Sanders]

I like Minie Rifles because they are so much faster and easier to load. I was at a public range and a fella started loading his brand new Lyman Plains Rifle.

I fired 5 rounds into a target using my M1855 Harpers Ferry .58 repro. He looked up at me with a stunned look on his face and stated: "That can't be a muzzleloader!"

My reply: "Yep, it is!"

A rifle-musket, using cartridges and G.I. Issue type leather gear is good for three to four rounds per minute. Round ball rifles are way too slow to reload and way too short ranged. A Good Minie Rifle is good out to 600-800 yards.

Remember, the rifle musket is the highest technological advance of muzzle loaders.

That being said, I have built Kentuckies and love their style.

[waksupi]

I like Minie Rifles because they are so much faster and easier to load. I was at a public range and a fella started loading his brand new Lyman Plains Rifle.

I fired 5 rounds into a target using my M1855 Harpers Ferry .58 repro. He looked up at me with a stunned look on his face and stated: "That can't be a muzzleloader!"

My reply: "Yep, it is!"

A rifle-musket, using cartridges and G.I. Issue type leather gear is good for three to four rounds per minute. Round ball rifles are way too slow to reload and way too short ranged. A Good Minie Rifle is good out to 600-800 yards.

Remember, the rifle musket is the highest technological advance of muzzle loaders.

That being said, I have built Kentuckies and love their style.

That is a matter of experience, and how you are set up with your shooting bag. I can easily load a ML with PRB in 30 seconds.

[excess650]

The OP mentioned he wanted a "squirrel rifle", but I don't think he meant the 2 legged variety.:groner:

As far as the rifle musket being "the highest technological advance of muzzleloaders", I suspect that some folks by the name of Schalk, Peterson, Schoyen, and Pope might have a slightly different opinion.