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feets
12-01-2011, 12:42 AM
After reading the thread about meplat and velocity I started wondering which hunk of lead in my collection should be used for Bambi busting. I could run them in the 454 Casull or 460 Encore.
So, pick the poison. Which would you use?

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/381297_310664625619275_100000272212256_1222369_115 490532_n.jpg

From left to right:

1) 200 gr SWC is obviously the hardest of the bunch at an advertised 20+ BHN
2) 255 gr RNFP seems to be made from the softer 14 BHN
3) 270 gr Thunderhead is somewhere between the first two in hardness
4) 300 gr TCBB is on par with the Thunderhead
5) 335 gr WLNGC Cast Performance seems to be about as hard as the 255 above

I've got oodles of these bullets to work with except for the Cast Performance. I'm down to 40 of those.
I should be able to get 1300 fps on the fatties and velocity could go up with the reduction in weight.

Assuming I can work something up with acceptable accuracy, which bullet would you use out to 100 yards? Why would you use it?

MikeS
12-01-2011, 01:16 AM
the first bullet is a target bullet , that's why it's cast so hard. It looks like an H&G #68 and lots of folks cast those out of linotype (bhn22). Of the bullets you've shown only the last one, the 335gr one is really designed specifically for hunting. You'll notice I called them bullets, rather than the more often seen word 'boolit'. The reason is that these are production cast bullets, and to answer your question, I wouldn't use ANY of them. If I was thinking of using one of them, I would buy a mould to cast the style I wanted, and then I would cast up a bunch of boolits to use.

If you're interested in casting boolits, you're in the right place. If you just want to know what lead bullets to use, you might not be in the right place.

When you shoot pre-cast bullets that you buy from a store (or website), you're at their mercy as to what alloy is being used, what size they're sized to, and whatever waxy pretty colored stuff the put in the lube grooves. When you cast your own, you can tailor the alloy to your needs, you can size them to fit YOUR guns, and you can decide what type of lube to use. Big differences between a pre-cast bullet, and a boolit you cast yourself.

Dale53
12-01-2011, 01:18 AM
My personal preference is the Mihec (mold) for a clone of the RCBS .45-270-SAA in either hollow point or solid point.

Of those bullets you show, I would pick the 335 gr WLNGC as my first choice. You don't need a bullet that heavy but it has a good meplat and yet should have good performance to 100 yards (my self-imposed limit for a handgun on live game).

Dale53

leftiye
12-01-2011, 01:21 AM
I'd use the 335 grain wfngc. I'd anneal the noses.

feets
12-01-2011, 01:34 AM
these are production cast bullets, and to answer your question, I wouldn't use ANY of them. If I was thinking of using one of them, I would buy a mould to cast the style I wanted, and then I would cast up a bunch of boolits to use.

I completely understand your point.

I've thought about getting into casting so I browse through the site. Right now, I'm so loaded down with other projects I can't afford to pick up a new hobby.

I realize exactly what these bullets are for. I'm a paper puncher and bought these bullets to do exactly that. Well, I bought the 300 TCBB to see if I could build a successful silhouette load in my Encore. I honestly don't care what color the lube is. :mrgreen:

The Cast Performance bullets have been sitting here for a couple years waiting to be used on something. I might be able to get them on target and leave a few for meat collection.

The biggest reason I posted this here was due to the recent heavy lead discussion. It made me stop and think about some of the stuff I'd read elsewhere.

220swiftfn
12-01-2011, 02:17 AM
It's a shame that #3 is tooo hard........That'd be a thumpr for sure........

Until you get something like the mentioned Mihec (RCBS 45-270-saa) and some softer lead/tin, I agree that #5 is the best bet for a dual-purpose from what you have......


Dan

feets
12-01-2011, 02:24 AM
I, too, think that the Thunderhead would be more fun if it was squishier. I guess there's always annealing.

It could be compared to getting hit with a 10 pound bowling ball vs 10 pounds of modeling clay. That would be energy transfer! If it didn't penetrate the critter I guarantee that would take it's breath away. You could just walk up and whomp it on the head after that. :mrgreen:

RobS
12-01-2011, 02:39 AM
They are all hard in regards to expansion for a deer so I would use the boolit with the largest meplate that will be accurate at the distance you plan on hunting.

badbob454
12-01-2011, 03:13 AM
drill a hollow point in #4 and use it.. a drill press to center it , set it up so it will drill many at the same depth . it ought to work , hard is ok in the 454 casull you will want it with the pressures it produces 60,000 psi in the max range but if you want slower projectiles go with # 5 should go clean through it/ sure some will say thats too hard, but a shot clean through will overcome not expanding in my opinion

stubshaft
12-01-2011, 06:04 AM
#5 the 335gr WLN I usually use a 300gr LFN in my 454 and have sold my 460's because they didn't offer any real improvement over the 454 I have used this boolit (WLN) also. Cast either hard or soft I have not had any problems on any animals with this design.

41mag
12-01-2011, 07:09 AM
I'm shooting a Raging Bull 8 3/8" barrel 454, and when I initially started shooting cast through it I used the 265gr Cast Performance with no issues what so ever, up to 1650fps.

This said when I started casting earlier this year, I went with the Lee C452-300RF in order to gain a little weight but also to be close to the same type bullet I was already shooting. I have had no issues with leading using these up to 1550fps or just a bit more with straight WW alloy, and they drop hogs like a lightning bolt. I also used one Sunday before last as a finishing shot on a decent buck, which simply didn't want to give it up, and it was definitely the deal closer for sure.

Like others have mentioned, I like the #3, but if choosing one of what you had pictured I would go with the last one, simply based upon how well the lighter version worked for me.

Also if you have any inkling of possibly wanting to get into casting your own sometime in the future, I highly suggest you start gathering, and stocking up your lead now. Worse case, you can easily get rid of it later, but maybe not so easily acquire it.

44man
12-01-2011, 09:22 AM
The LBT for sure. It will be the most accurate too.
Don't try for pure velocity, leave the chrono home. The .454 can shoot too fast for a hard boolit on deer.
The suggestion to anneal the nose is good.
Use 2400 or something and do NOT try to download H110 or 296, you must use max loads for ignition.

williamwaco
12-01-2011, 04:15 PM
.
.
. 1+ on MikeS





.

feets
12-01-2011, 05:02 PM
I work at a very large luxury car dealership. If I need lead, I'll grab the wheel weights before the recycler gets to them. That's already been worked out.

I wasn't looking at super high velocity. After all, this is a SRH with no porting. recoil can be fierce. I simply meant that I could get them up to a nice gallup without too much of a problem.


I didn't think about boring out one of the T-heads. That could be interesting. I have a couple hundred of them and a vertical mill in my garage. It would be kinda silly to check them in my 14 x 30 lathe but that's an option too.

Since the previous discussion showed concern about hollow points braking off hard cast lead, what would happen if I annealed them after drilling?

I might have to build up a pile of modified slugs and take them to me friend's property.
Would it be better to try them out on milk jugs full of water or wet newsprint?
Maybe layered paper/jugs/paper/backstop to better simulate a chest cavity?

x101airborne
12-01-2011, 05:57 PM
Your question of simulating expansion / penetration is pretty much going to be mute with those hard bullets. And here is another option....... lots of guys here shoot 45 caliber handguns and rifles. Lots of them will volunteer to cast you some tried and true hunting boolits for the cost of the lead and a little time plus shipping. You could get better designs, better alloy and better lube than what is currently offered commercially. I would even volunteer to send you some of my WFN 310's or RCBS 270 SAA SWC's to try. Before I started casting, I did use a lot of commercial cast booits. When I got tired of gas cutting, leading, crappy lube and sloppy fit, I started casting. And believe me, it wasn't that long ago. I do hunt with my handguns and have taken every animal common here with them at one point or another. PM me if interested, I would be happy to help as would many others.

stubert
12-01-2011, 06:47 PM
Use somthing like the 335 grain, but cast it yourself and keep it around 10 -12 . I hunt with a 44 Mag. I use the Lee 310 gr. flatpoint, It will penetrate forever, and is very accurate.

Blammer
12-01-2011, 07:05 PM
I'd choose 5 or 2 in that order, and then go kill something to eat. :)

If I shot/cast 45 cal I'd send you a few hundred to use for hunting. I'm a 44 man myself so, no help there.

Jim
12-01-2011, 07:13 PM
I'd go with number 5.

selmerfan
12-01-2011, 07:19 PM
I'd go with #5 and this business about too hard can be overdone. You don't need expansion, you need a big hole. The 454/460 already drills a big hole. When I was shooting the .454 Casull for Iowa whitetails I used boolits cast by Lloyd Smale, and IIRC these were hard boolits, mostly linotype. I shot 8 deer with that load - a 320 LFNGC at 1650 fps - and they penetrated deer from one end to the other, regardless of angle, including the largest whitetail I have ever killed. Go with #5, it will hit hard on both ends.

Dan Cash
12-01-2011, 07:52 PM
Use #2. Drive it about 1000 fps and you will have a DRT deer unless you gut shoot it. Has any of your other advisors ever killed anything? That 255 grain slug will end for end a deer inside 50 yards and it is going in at .45 cal; bigger than some rifle bullets ever expand to.

429421Cowboy
12-01-2011, 09:39 PM
I agree with Dan Cash, your shooting a .451 slug, if it has a nice wide meplate you'll be albe to bore a hell of a hole in on side and be sure of a big hole goin' out the other side. It is widely acepted that a 270 grain boolit at 900fps will plow through a deer end to end, we're talking half again that with a boolit that weighs 335 grains! And there is no shame in not casting your own, i don't cast yet i still rely on commercial boolits for my pistol needs and i don't feel that its a crime for doing so. The LBT designs are top shelf in my experience and will flatten a deer with certainty.

41mag
12-01-2011, 09:55 PM
Feets,

My post might have come across a bit off from what I intended to convey. I mentioned I have run my boolits up into the mid 1500fps range which is very true, but I have slowly been working that velocity down incrementally. I say this because they shoot so danred well right around 1400fps that I haven't made much headway dropping them down since hunting season is here.

That said I HAVE shot them in my RH in 45 Colt with MUCH lighter loads using 2400 with excellent accuracy. I screwed up however when I headed off on vacation over Thanksgiving, and installed a new set of sights, which I thought I was really going to like, but found out I really cannot stand them. SO back to the drawing board. The plan was to work up a good load while up there at the country and tweak it in for accuracy at 50 yds or more. I didn't manage to find the time for it as is usual, but they still shot very well, even with those hideous sights.

x101airborne
12-01-2011, 10:24 PM
Has no one read some of the posts about speed and wide meplat boolits? I just read it yesterday.... The faster you drive a wide meplat boolit, the less it performs. Look up 44 man and Larry Gibson. They both had really good information.

41mag
12-02-2011, 06:44 AM
Has no one read some of the posts about speed and wide meplat boolits? I just read it yesterday.... The faster you drive a wide meplat boolit, the less it performs. Look up 44 man and Larry Gibson. They both had really good information.

Absolutely, and even conversed with 44man on the issue when getting my 454 load off the ground. I have already seen the results with a 80'ish pound sow rolled rear over ears from 87yds, and when used on a buck weekend before last as a finishing shot.

My only issue is I ran out of time when working with them in the 454 before I got the loads down into the 1350'ish feet per second range. I was playing with them and all of a sudden it was hunting season. I have them shooting around 2" or so at 50yds free hand and that or less out to 75 rested, so figured go with accuracy right now and have fun with what I have going. I mainly intended to use them on hogs in the first place so a bit more isn't going to hurt especially with the straight air cooled WW alloy being a tad softer than what most use. I have to say that the postmortem on both the hog and the deer proved to me there is plenty going on with them as is.

With the 45 Colt I am simply looking to get them into the 950 - 1000fps range and be accurate. I am also going to soften up the alloy for these as well, with a bit of plain lead sheeting, or stick on's. I feel this would simply be the best of both worlds. Easy accurate loads to shoot, but still very capable of putting the smackdown on the hogs.

The loads I am shooting in the 454 are now using AA-9, but after hunting season I plan on working with the 2400 quite a bit, and see if I can ease them down some and also maintain the accuracy or even improve it a bit. To be honest the loads shoot awesome and I figure the main part is simply me not being able to use the wide bladed sight as well as with the small bead and V-notch sights I am accustomed to.

BTW I am very interested in how those "cookie cutters" you just started working with are going to work on the hogs as well.

Tar Heel
12-02-2011, 09:27 PM
The #5 for sure. I've used a similar bullet in the 454 Casull, 411-JDJ, 44 Mag and 41 Mag. Anything like this or a KT SWC with a large meplate will absolutely drop em in their tracks.