Making a soft point out of a cast boolit. Anyone ever tried this method.

[35Whelen]

Good Day all.

I was fortunate enough to acquire a Ruger Hawkeye in a 358 Winchester the other day. I am a big 35 fan and love what a med velocity bullet in the 225 to 250 grn can do to game...a true thumper. I was reading an article by Paco in Leverguns and he makes mention of using the 3589 / 358009 cast boolit in his 358 Winchester and taking the hardness out of the nose of the boolit using the following method:

Paco's method for soft nose cast boolits.

"Lyman’s 3589, is the original mold number...not sure what it is today, probably something like 358009. But it is a round nose at around 280 grains in weight. I cast these bullets from magnum shotgun shot with 5% tin added...cast hot and dropped directly into water.

The ones I’m going to use for hunting I size and lube...then place them standing in water up to just above the shoulder and run the butane torch over the noses ...doesn’t take much...at the first sign of color change take the flame off...Let them cool slowly and the temper in the noses is gone for good expansion ...yet the body is hard and will take high pressure and velocity without fouling....pushing these from the 358 Winchester cartridge at 2400 fps is a snap with H335, AA 2015, or 3031...accuracy is very fine. Muzzle energy is almost 3600 lbs....a 30-06 has to work very hard to get even close to that kind of power."

Wondering if anyone else has tried this method, instead of using the two pour method of pure lead nose with WW to follow and reheat til it is remelted and fused as a hard body, soft nose.

Thanks in advance for the input.

Paul

[Crawdaddy]

Never tried it but it seems to make sense. You are essentially annealing the top portion of the bullet.

Give it a try, I don't think it could hurt anything. Would love to hear more if you do.

[35Whelen]

I am on the group buy list for the 358009 but production isn't scheduled for June I think. When it does get here, it will get done for sure, and I will post on the results....should be a great round to try in the 358 Winchester and my Whelen. Come on spring.......

[Ole]

I have tried it. Seemed to have good success with the tester, but I haven't tried the bullets on game.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/Bullet%20making/IMG_5389.jpg

Bullet on the right is a Water dropped RD 190 grain.

Bullet on the left is a Water dropped RD 190 grain with the nose annealed by the same method you mentioned.

Hit both with my Lee hardness tester and the one that was annealed did register a good bit softer (10 BHN vs 18 for the non-annealed one).

I seem to remember my alloy was either 1:1 WW:PB or maybe it was 10:4 WW:PB. The idea is definitely sound. I just haven't had the chance to personally field test the bullets in media.

[35Whelen]

I just conducted my own crude test. I took some 200 grn 35 cal Bullet Barn boolits which at cast about 24 Bhn , and stood them up in a water bath to the crimp groove. Took a probe that I have and indented the top then annealed them using a butane torch. Didn't really see any color change as mentioned so I just held it on the nose for about 10-15 seconds and then let it air cool. Then I indented it with the probe, and it most definitely marked easier, so I am assuming that they are softer on the nose.....we shall see. Deer season here just ended so spring bear will be the first testing to be done.

[Jeffrey]

Very interesting. Subscribing to this thread.

[MT Gianni]

My reason for not trying that method is I am not sure the soft nose would be uniform on both sides. A lopsided mushroom would not track straight the way that I visualize it.

[35Whelen]

I just held the blue part of the flame on the nose and moved it around in circles. Lead is a pretty good conductor of heat and it appeared to heat evenly as indicated by the change in look of the lead......like condensation burning off of steel when heated..( hope that describes it)

[leftiye]

Use tempilaq 300 degree paint on the noses when it melts, quit heating.

[1Shirt]

Am sort of a believer in what Paco writer. I tried this method, and tested it with a few 405 gr. .458 blts. Tested hardness with my Cabin Tree Tester. Hardness of base was about 18, nose was about 12. Never loaded however.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[303Guy]

Lead boolit alloy age hardens. Water quenching speeds up the process. Annealing the noses undoes that process - but, how long before it age hardens again? Can one 'tweak' the alloy to make it stay annealed?

[trench]

I don't see the body of the bullet standing up to more than about 1500 fps, even with a gas check and the best lube, without fouling the bore pretty badly. Why not just cast it soft and paper patch it?

[303Guy]

For hunting purposes, paper patching is definitely a recommendation. It is more effort but also more fun. Chances are the POI of a hunting paper patch boolit will be different to the plain cast target or practice boolit. But not necessarily.

[Ole]

I don't see the body of the bullet standing up to more than about 1500 fps, even with a gas check and the best lube, without fouling the bore pretty badly. Why not just cast it soft and paper patch it?

I shot bullets in my 357 Max just like the ones pictured in post #4, except they had gas checks installed on them and they went 1950-2000 with no leading.

[btroj]

Never tried that method, I have used the BruceB method. I like the ease of the BruceB method, I like the ability to control the absolute hardness of the nose and how much of the nose is softer.

[Canuck Bob]

BruceB method?

[35Whelen]

Bruce has a very neat method, but labour intensive. Basically pours a known amount of pure lead into the nose of the mould using a dipper of some sort, like a 22LR casing. Once the nose has solidified somewhat he pours the WW lead into the mould, then reheats it until he has a complete remelt, lets it cool without disturbing the mix.....he ends up with a completely fused pure lead soft nose , hard bodied WW bullet.

When you think about it, very ingenious, and if all you ever do it to is pure hunting bullets , then it's not too labour intensive, unless you are doing an awful lot of big game hunting.

[btroj]

Look at the stick under old maintenance and design. Casting softies bullets in any mold. It is time consuming but for the few you need for hunting it works well. In 30 minutes you will have more than a seasons worth.

I use a lead /tin alloy for the nose and made a dipper froma 380 auto casing for my 45-70. Works like a charm.

[Faret]

Anybody try anneling boolits like brass only in the oven? Put so much water up to the right boolit height and then put them in the oven for so long? Never tried it just asking.

[429421Cowboy]

Gonna try this one out, i shoot alot of Sulters Choice commercial boolits that run around 20 BHn, 240 gr swc's in our SBH's for our working/practice loads, it would be awesome to make a few softies to hunt with. I've got a stack of unsuspecting phone books in my shop now... Hmmm... It IS cold and snowy... And it IS a long time till hunting season starts again... And a guy DOES get bored... Hopefully we'll get some results to share!

[DLCTEX]

I don't think trying to anneal them in the oven in water will work as you need the lead at 300* to anneal and the steam would keep the nose too cool until water was gone.

[runfiverun]

the waterdropped will work best, a mixed alloy of 50-50 water dropped is in the neighborhood of 15 bhn.
the annealed nose will be pretty soft [8-9] for the regular alloy's time to harden just like air cooled then the nose will be as hard as the original alloy, just not waterdropped hard.
so there are manipulations at work here,
tin- lowers the melt temp of the alloy hence the use 50-50 and as little tin as possible.
heat- need to experiment you want just short of melting the things but enough to soak in and change the waterdrop effect.
the 50-50 also works in your favor by lowering the antimony content making the water dropped boolit temp to water critical.
you gotta work the whole thing from start to finish with a plan.
be prepared to do some testing and note keeping.
it does work though.

[390ish]

I have done it for hunting loads -- WW + a little tin. I do the water drop, then size and heat at 450 for 1.5 hours. Then take a torch to the upper 1/4 of the boolit in a pan of water. Seems to expand on deer by the looks of the exit out of a 7.62 russian pushing a 200 grain lee.