New to cast handloading, looking for .40 help and direction

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

Hello all,
I am new to both cast boolit and pistol handloading but have been loading rifle cartridges for a few years now. I have aquired some 155 gr. hard cast .40 Xtreme brand bullets. the Dia. is listed as .400. I have plated load data with Clays powder, 3.6-4 grains, 23,300-30,900 PSI and 854-942 FPS and have a few questions.
1. Can I use this Data with the cast bullets I have?
2. do I need to use gas checks?
3. Would I need to swage these boolits to resize?
I would like to shoot them out of my 3rd gen S&W 4053 DAO Semi-pistol
Thanks in advance,
John

[454PB]

First, welcome to the forum!

1. Plated and cast data is basically interchangeable as far as barrel friction is concerned. Always use caution with seating depth (case volume)

2. No. Use a size that fits the gun and good lube and no gas check is required.

3. Swaging is pressure forming a boolit or bullet (jacketed projectile). Here, we call it sizing. The answer depends on the gun and boolit dimensions. It will need sizing only if it is about .003 larger than the bore in the case of a semi auto. Most of us size for .001" to .002" larger than the bore (or throats in the case of a revolver). You may get lucky and cast boolits that are already within those parameters, in which case you only need to lubricate them. That is a whole nother subject, and can be done by hand lubing, kake cutter pan lubing, or liquid Alox.

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

ill check the dimentions when I get home, Thanks for the help. Do cast bullets generally come pre-lubed? the manufacturer states on their website "All of our Superior Cast Bullets (SCB) are 'hard cast' using a tough time-proven+alloy. Our hard+alloy combined with the most efficient bullet lube available enhances accuracy and minimizes barrel fouling Literally hundreds of X-Treme SCB bullets can be fired without any decline in accuracy and withot cleaning your barrel."
so as long as they are dimentionally correct I would think Im good to go?

[geargnasher]

I second the welcome to the forum!

You're starting out with a tough project with cast, the .40 S&W is one of the most difficult calibers to get going well, and that's usually due to lack of understanding of its special needs compared to, say, .45 ACP. I'll try to point out the potential issues for you to be aware of going into this so you can make the necessary checks and corrections and hopefully save some heachaches.

1. The .40 is designed as a "magnum pressure" cartridge, operating at over twice the pressures of .45 ACP, so a couple of things are different. The main one is the .40 brass is very hard and very tough, the other is it has thick walls. These two things create a big issue with our relatively soft cast boolits, because when we seat the boolits, the brass can be stronger than the lead and actually swage the boolit down undersized by a thousandth or so. Why does this matter? It matters because when fired, the boolit will sometimes be smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel, and if it is, the hot gas will leak by the boolit and erode the sides of it (not melt like some think, but erode) like a water hose blasting at dirt, and this will cause the dreaded "leading" of the bore. The lead "dust" from the gas leaks mists out ahead of the boolit and gets ironed on the barrel under very high pressure, leaving streaks of lead in the barrel. Subsequent shots add to this accumulation by the same action, plus by abrasion, because lead loves to stick to lead when rubbed together under pressure.

2. Part of the reason that the hard, tough cases are an issue with cast boolits is because all the standard dies that I've seen are made for copper bullets, which are typically .001-2" smaller than groove diameter, therefore the expander plugs are too small and don't expand the case body enough to accept cast boolits without squishing the boolits. Often, a custom expander plug is necessary to stretch the brass enough to get the proper tension (.001-2") on the larger cast boolits without any ill effect.

3. The Lee Factory Crimp Die usually gives problems too, because it's made for copper-jacketed bullets in the .397" range, not cast boolits in the .401" range, and the carbide post-sizer ring in the bottom of the die will size brass and boolit together and your boolit will come out .397" after running the cartridge through the die! .397" boolits in a .40 will most certainly lead.

4. Hardness has little to do with leading, boolit fit does. The boolit has to enter the barrel slightly larger than groove diameter. If it's a slight interference fit and of the correct hardness for the pressure and velocity, and lubed with a decent lube, it won't leak and it won't lead. This is the whole "secret" to shooting cast boolits without them leading the bore. "Harder is better" is a myth we try very hard to dispell here, because it just isn't true most of the time, so if you've heard it, try to disregard it.

Some more tips:
Slug the bore of your gun with a dead-soft lead ball, fishing sinker, etc. It's important to use soft lead with no springback. Lighly oil the slug and barrel and pound it through from the muzzle end with a mallet and brass rod wrapped in electrical tape, don't use a wooden dowel. Measure the groove impressions (the high spots on the slug) and that will be your groove diameter, size your boolits larger than this.

Pull a seated/crimped boolit with an inertial puller and measure the boolit to make certain it is at least .001" larger than the groove diameter of the gun. If not, figure out what's making it smaller, and fix it.

Balance the load. If you want a mild load, use a softer alloy, like 8-12 bhn, and use a powder in the faster burn rate spectrum like Clays or 231. For medium velocity/pressure, Universal, Unique, or similar work well, and air-cooled wheel weights (11-14 bhn, usually) all the way up to "Hard Cast" can work. For full-snort stuff, opinions vary, but I've had good luck with water-quenched or heat-treated wheel weights at 20+ bhn (almost the same as straight linotype), stiff charges of Longshot or Blue Dot, premium high-pressure rifle lube, and magnum primers.

Clean out ALL, I mean ALL traces of the copper fouling. Use a good, ammonia-based copper solvent and follow the directions, or use an electro-chemical device like an Outers Foul-Out. Lead will stick to copper fouling like you wouldn't believe, often making you question your technique when all that's wrong is the copper fouling in the barrel was grabbing lead from the boolits as they went by.

Hope this helps some, if you have any questions or need clarification about anything I've said, don't be afraid to ask.

Gear

[geargnasher]

ill check the dimentions when I get home, Thanks for the help. Do cast bullets generally come pre-lubed? the manufacturer states on their website "All of our Superior Cast Bullets (SCB) are 'hard cast' using a tough time-proven+alloy. Our hard+alloy combined with the most efficient bullet lube available enhances accuracy and minimizes barrel fouling Literally hundreds of X-Treme SCB bullets can be fired without any decline in accuracy and withot cleaning your barrel."
so as long as they are dimentionally correct I would think Im good to go?

Exactly, as long as they are dimensionally correct, and remain so after seating in your brass, you are good to go. Don't believe all the hype about special alloys or such, clean barrels come from fit that stops gas leaks, not from "hard+alloy".

Gear

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

Thats alot to take in, thanks a bunch! I usually use RCBS dies with my rifle cartridges, but I did get the Lee deluxe 4 die set with the factory crimp die for my .40 I may just scrap using the cast bullets if it requires custom dies, I do not plan on casting my own bullets and do not really want to invest in another die set to shoot the 500 rounds I have. Thanks again for saving me some headaches!

[sqlbullet]

I load for 10mm.

I agree with Gear 100%.

But, you probably don't need custom dies. Just avoid the factory crimp die except as a bulge busting sizing die. I have a stock Lee and RCBS die set for 40/10mm, no custom expander stem and everything has worked fine for many thousands of rounds.

Load up and shoot, and then IF you have issues, return to Gear's post to try to determine your remedy.

Also, FYI, you can buy a custom expander stem to go in your existing die. No need to get a "custom die set".

[noylj]

The very first issue to address, right after determining the barrel's groove diameter, is the issue of your expander die.
The .40 is new enough that almost all guns have a groove diameter close to 0.400" and 0.401" bullets work quite well. This is NOT true of many older cartridges.
Determine the COL that works in your guns (long enough to minimize head space and small enough to fit your magazine. Load a few inert dummy cartridges and determine the COL that will feed and chamber.
Now, how much of the bullet is in the case. Get a rough measure for the length of the bullet in you inert dummy rounds.
This is the minimum depth that an expander plug should go down the case.
In general, the expander OD should be sized, particularly for lead bullets, so the case ID (over the length that the bullet will be seated) is at least 0.001" under bullet diameter and no more than 0.002" under bullet diameter.
If smaller, you will start to swage the bullet down and have case bulges. If larger, the bullet will not be seated with enough tension to prevent bullet set-back. The very last thing you need in .40 S&W is any bullet set-back.
This is a critical step that so many people never measure or worry about and, as long as measurements are not too far off, still get decent performance with lead bullets.
I have had no problem loading lead in my .40s, and I shoot as-cast and tumble-lubed. The largest bullets I shoot are 0.4025 and the smallest is 0.401. It seems that, in general, the larger bullets always seem to have a small edge regarding accuracy.
You may need to get a custom expander plug. Lee will make one custom. Hornady has redesigned their powder-through expander plugs for lead and they should work great (of course, you would need a Hornady Powder measure). Any of the die manufacturer's should be happy to make a custom expander plug if you need one--with Lee probably being the least expensive.
Try a couple of inert dummy rounds and see if you will need a special expander. You probably won't (I haven't).

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

Alright thanks,i measured the bullets, they are .400 on the dot. The rifling in the barrel, ( inside micrometer, did not slug ) was .387 and the rifle grooves were .394 I resized about 10 cases, expanded and seated some bullets step by step from the instructions. It seemed to go fine, the rounds chambered with no issue, I set the crimp die to light crimp and I'd did not seem to resize the bullet, still .400 when I measure the square end sticking out. Here is a pic, should I seat the bullet down to the squared part or less. I put a hornady HP in the lineup for reference. Also the line on the empty shell is where 3.6 grains of clays fills to. There was no compression of the powder when seated fully. How an I doing?


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[JRR]

The .40 is a very high pressure round with a small case. Bullet seat dept is crucial regarding pressure. First, find the longest round that will fit the magazine. Take the barrel out and drop test the longest round to see if it chambers easily, and if not than seat a couple of thous. at a time until it does. Put the gun back together and rack the slide to test function (dummy rounds of course).

I use a neck expander die from RCBS for the 38-40 revolver round because it measures .399" for my .401 bullets. Most .40 neck expander dies measure approx. .395" and are designed for jacketed bullets.

To achieve approx. factory ballistics, use a medium burn powder like AA5, AA7, Unique, Herco (my favorite) and slower to the Bluedot - WC820 level. There are many others but you get the idea. You NEVER want to get an accidental double charge of powder that can occur with the very fast powders like Bullseye and AA2.

Flair the case enough to get the bullet started and then use a taper crimp die to close the flair just enough to insure proper chambering and NO more.

You must be safe with this cartridge. The margins are tight!

Jeff

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

So unlike rifle loads where 10% compression is acceptable, there is no acceptable compression with pistol loads?


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[prs]

My expander die is an "M" die. I simply experimented with my actual pistol barrel to get the max overall length that would not interfere with chambering and then allowed a tiny bit of room - this ended-up very close to a WW factory 180gr factory load and the boolit (Lee TL170SWC) and bullet are similar length. I crimp and seat in same step and use the carbide factory crimp die with the bulge buster only (my load seems not to bulg the case). My alloy is of modest hardness and I use a comfortable load worked up with TrailBoss by the alternate charge technique described by the powder maker. Even in the Glock 23 poly rifled barrel, I get no leading. Once set-up this approach is not difficult, but just for 500 rounds I can see your logic in bailing for store bought bullets.

prs

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

These are store bought cast bullets, I did not cast them. They are from silver state bullet co in Carson city. I don't know the hardness of them and it does not say on their website.
Here is the link to the parent company http://xtremebullets.com/better.htm


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[geargnasher]

Seven, if you haven't already, give Noylj's and JRR's posts a careful re-read, they give some excellent advice on determining seating depth and amount of crimp to use for your particular gun and components and cover some points I didn't.

I suspect your groove measurement (the larger one) is way off, probably due to the fact that most inside calipers aren't zeroed correctly. For now, assume that the groove is around .399"-.400", most are.

Pull one of your seated/crimped boolits and measure it. Compare it to a fresh boolit with your calipers. If the seated/crimped/pulled boolit isn't more than about half a thousandth smaller, you should be fine and not need to worry about changing anything about your equipment.

The only true telling is in the shooting, so once you make sure the boolit fits and establish the correct loading length and amount of crimp by using your chamber as a case gauge, load some up with a good starting load of medium-burning powder, de-copper your barrel, and go shooting!

Gear

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

Awesome guys thanks! I pulled my dummy round that would chamber and it still measures .400, so I'm gonna load a few up and try it out.


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[para45lda]

Can we make this a .40 sticky?

This has the most useful information in the fewest posts I've seen in a while.

You guys are awesome

Wes

[SevenpointsixtwoMM]

Can we make this a .40 sticky?

This has the most useful information in the fewest posts I've seen in a while.

You guys are awesome

Wes

Yeah I tell you I've tried searching for this information many times, I ask a few questions on here and I have the book written for me! I Truly appreciate everyone's time and efforts.


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