Bottom pour vs. ladle--help me write my article

[DaveCampbell]

OK, I neep to tap your wisdom: I have heard that a hand ladle will pour a better large, heavy rifle bullet than by pouring it from the bottom spout. True or false? Why?

Thanks in advance!

Dave

[quilbilly]

Hi Dave,
Having been pouring lead fishing jigs in my fishing tackle business for the last 30 years, I have found that you can't beat a bottom pour for speed and efficiency whether it is for boolits or jigs. The lead stays hotter so you can get a better fill in the mold. For larger items, a ladle pour is better.
All that being said, the drawback with a bottom pour is that it is harder to keep the spout clean so it doesn't drip constantly. When it drips, the lead splatters and you will get hit by the hot lead. Also, given the quantity of lead items I pour, I tend to wear out a bottom pour pot every 2-3 years. I consider a pot worn out when the spout gets so drippy from corrosion that I can no longer stop the drip. This might never happen in ten years to the average boolit caster.
The largest boolit I cast from a bottom pour is a 310 gr-429 cal. In my opinion I think that might be the borderline for switching to a ladle.

[DaveCampbell]

Hi Dave,
Having been pouring lead fishing jigs in my fishing tackle business for the last 30 years, I have found that you can't beat a bottom pour for speed and efficiency whether it is for boolits or jigs. The lead stays hotter so you can get a better fill in the mold. For larger items, a ladle pour is better.
All that being said, the drawback with a bottom pour is that it is harder to keep the spout clean so it doesn't drip constantly. When it drips, the lead splatters and you will get hit by the hot lead. Also, given the quantity of lead items I pour, I tend to wear out a bottom pour pot every 2-3 years. I consider a pot worn out when the spout gets so drippy from corrosion that I can no longer stop the drip. This might never happen in ten years to the average boolit caster.
The largest boolit I cast from a bottom pour is a 310 gr-429 cal. In my opinion I think that might be the borderline for switching to a ladle.

Thanks for the quick reply quilbilly. Glad to know I am not the only one with a drippy spout...thought it was because I am getting older. But a follow-up question: Why is it better to use the ladle for the larger (heavier) bullets?

Best,

Dave

[454PB]

You're going to get more opinions than proof with this question.

I was strictly a ladle caster for 5 years, casting up to 500 grain boolits.

When Lee came out with an "affordable" bottom pour, I bought one (I'm talking about nearly 40 years ago)

I did both ladle and bottom pour for another 10 years, and after developing my skills at both, I quit ladle pouring. I found that bottom pour is faster, easier, and quality is just as good.

I only use a ladle for small lots and test casting now.

[Reload3006]

Keep your drippy spout zipped up and no more problems .. Ok poor attempt at humor. I have a Lyman pot and lots of ladles. But I have put them all aside for the Lee production pot its just that much easier. When or if I ever wear this one out I am going to get the 20 pounder. I love RCBS but i love 500 bucks better.
Good Luck
Happy shootn

[cbrick]

When or if I ever wear this one out I am going to get the 20 pounder. I love RCBS but i love 500 bucks better. Good Luck Happy shootn

$500.00 for the RCBS 22 pound pot?

Sounds very much like you need to find a different place to shop, your current place is ripping you off in a big way.

Rick

[Reload3006]

i was being facetious .. I think Midway has them for around 340? or so.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/209097/rcbs-pro-melt-furnace-110-volt

[looseprojectile]

I get a chance to rant.
For the past thirty some years I have used the same old [used when I got it]
Lyman #63 bottom pour pot.
Those whom have not been able to cast great boolits with a bottom pour furnace either don't have the skill or the ability to detect and adjust to it's needs and how to manage it, or have a problem mould, or don't understood how to adjust to or manage the flow.
I have never not been able to cast perfect boolits with my bottom pour pot as I am able to recognize and adjust to what is needed. Things such as more or less heat in the alloy or more or less heat in the mould or more tin in the boolit metal. I always try to use the fastest flow rate that I can get good boolits with. Create a large sprue puddle. Moulds themselves have to be cared for and maintained correctly to be able to cast great boolits.
My casting experience ranges from the small 25 20 gas check boolit to the Lyman 58 caliber hollow base Minie. Never have a problem after detecting what is needed and adjusting my method for each different mould.
To answer your question. If you are doing it wrong, yes you can not pour a large boolit from a bottom pour pot. On the other hand, yes you can pour a perfect boolit with a bottom pour pot if you have the skill and ability, experience and knowledge. Lord knows I ain't perfect but I do cast fine boolits any way you want them.


Life is good

[44man]

Thanks for the quick reply quilbilly. Glad to know I am not the only one with a drippy spout...thought it was because I am getting older. But a follow-up question: Why is it better to use the ladle for the larger (heavier) bullets?

Best,

Dave
I use a ladle for everything, even making .22 boolits for a friend. Large boolits just shrink more and the sprue can harden before the boolit can draw enough to fill out.
By holding a ladle full of molten lead tight in the sprue hole, the boolit will draw from it as it shrinks. The time will get a few seconds longer as boolits get larger. If you look into the ladle as you pour, you will see the lead stop, then it will go down a little more. Then you can tip off the ladle.
Guys get around it when pouring high or from the bottom spout by keeping the lead flowing so the sprue stays molten. That just covers the whole mold and spills lead all over. 10 boolits worth of lead to make one! :mrgreen:
With a pre-heated mold and good ladle work, you can empty a 20# pot without a single reject boolit or a single splash on the bench.
I have been casting sinkers and boolits for 62 years, "T" shirt, no gloves, just safety glasses in case and have never been visited by the tinsel fairy.
Most pots made for us have no heating elements on the bottom or near the spout so because heat rises, the spout can freeze, get full of crud, need picked out and will change flow. Maintenance is just too high.
The ideal BP would have an element near the spout and an inner nipple that sticks up into clean lead just like the gas pickup in your gas tank.
Some turn the mold over to cool the plate on a wet towel to speed casting. There is only several degrees between a good boolit and a half boolit with a sprue frozen in the plate.
I have never seen a need to increase production only to cull half the boolits! :drinks:
I can say one thing for sure though. It is very, very hard to teach a friend to cast. He watches as I explain and show how but it would take a week for them to coordinate both hands! How do they get a fork to their mouth? :coffeecom The very hardest thing for them is to tip the ladle off without turning the mold so they spill all the good work.
[smilie=1:

[P.K.]

Dave,

I recently started casting after years of using the evil j-words. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the plain old joy and satisfaction one gets knowing he is crafting/casting a masterpice fit for seating in one's own self loaded ammunition.

I am a ladle guy. For me it's not about volume or speed. As 44man stated it's quality over quantity every time. Small lots or large everyone is diffrent and the way people go about achiving the same thig is too. I guess the common factor for us all is the fact that anyone who picks up a mold, mixes his alloy and casts is a craftsman in his own right. ( Except that yo-yo in the "Hulk Smash" thread.;))

[Reload3006]

J words arent all that bad i squeeze them all the time .. and i cast my own cores.:Fire:

[cbrick]

The ideal BP would have an element near the spout and an inner nipple that sticks up into clean lead just like the gas pickup in your gas tank.

That is brilliant and here's why I think so . . .

Most casters use some form of scrap alloy and without both enough and proper fluxing there will be stuff that you don’t want in the alloy and there will be contaminants trapped near the bottom of the pot and make its way out through the spout and into the mold. With most common fluxing contaminants higher up in the pot are more easily removed. This is the cause of most “inclusions” in bullets and a spout designed like 44man suggested could go a long way to eliminating or greatly reducing this bottom pour problem.

Large bullets easier to cast with a ladle? Perhaps. Ladle casting draws cleaner alloy from near the surface and it’s easier to control alloy flow and sprue puddle size. A sufficiently large sprue goes a long way to keeping the sprue plate hot enough which helps prevent poorly filled out bases. It is very possible to have a mold hot enough and a sprue plate that is too cool resulting in poorly filled out bases, the larger the bullet the more so. The sprue plate has far less mass than the mold and more of it’s surface is in contact with air, it cools much faster than the mold.

I ladle pour large and small bullets by holding the mold over the pot and keep pouring well after the cavity is full allowing alloy to spill over the sprue plate and the mold and back into the pot, the instant the sprue color change occurs a flip of a gloved finger breaks off all the extra alloy on the side of the mold and back into the pot. There is plenty of alloy to both allow the bullet base to draw alloy and just as important it keeps the sprue plate as near to mold temp as possible. Large or small bullets I get perfectly filled out bullets including the bases.

Rick

[MT Gianni]

Over 300 Gr I get less variation from a ladle but it is measured in 1/10's of a grain. Using a ladle you cannot keep a layer of charcoal or cat litter on top of the melt to slow oxidation. I use a bottom pour most of the time.

[mroliver77]

While a cooling boolit does draw a bit more alloy in it is not a lot. A nice big sprue poured without pause is sufficient to supply enough alloy to cover it.

This question always stirs emotions. I have seen some discussions become arguments and then become downright nasty. Why anybody gets that wrapped up in how another pours his boolits is beyond me.

I am a bottom pour guy. With clean alloy, proper fluxing and a cadence tuned to the present situation great boolits can be poured. I keep my pot clean and have little problem with drips. I started out ladle pouring and still use it occasionally. I have nothing against it and certain situations do seem to favor one method over the other.

I also like 44mans idea about a raised tube in the pot. With clean alloy I find little evidence of inclusions.

I am not a bench rest shooter. I do want good performance out of my boolits. If I can get under 2" with a milsurp and 1" with a fine rifle I am pretty happy.
J

[quilbilly]

The reason I suggest a ladle pour with big boolits (or fishing jigs over a few ouces) is that a 10# Lee pot is too small to do very many. You spend a lot of time putting in more lead and waiting for it to get up to temp. With a double cavity mold for a boolit much over 300 grains, you can go through 10# very quickly. If you are just casting 30-40 big boolits at a time, by all means the bottom pour is more efficient in my opinion.
If you are doing a lot of big boolits, I would hit the garage sales for a propane turkey cooker and an old cast iron pot so you can do 30-50# at a time.
The way I stop the drips for a while is to take a straightened out heavy fish hook, run it up the spout and swirl it around a couple times. Run some lead through the "cleaned" spout to get rid of debris then get back to the boolits.

[FirstBrit]

OK, I neep to tap your wisdom: I have heard that a hand ladle will pour a better large, heavy rifle bullet than by pouring it from the bottom spout. True or false? Why?

Thanks in advance!

Dave

Hello Dave,

I'm not sure that what you have heard is true or not. There are a lot of us out about that swear by hand ladle and again there are many others who prefer the bottom pour. Basically, it comes down to the simple issue of whats works best for you.
Based on my experience I would say that the bottom pour pot is more efficient when casting for quantity. i.e. long casting sessions with one set of bullet moulds.
The ladle pour is more versatile when casting with several moulds in rotation or just doing a short production run with one mould.

In my view the biggest problems with the bottom pour is getting a decent perpendicular flow of molten lead that goes straight into the orifice of the sprue plate and does dance all over the sprue plate first. Secondly, after releasing the operating lever the lead flow should cease without any messy drips. Both of these issues can be traced back to the dross in the lead melt. What most people forget or don't realise is that it's fundamentally wrong to flux in the pot you are pouring from!!!!! People seriously into bullet casting should entertain the idea of investing a few dollars in a second pot used for pre-melting and fluxing. All rejects and sprues go back into the pre-melt pot NOT the pour pot. Only clean fluxed melt is transfered from the pre-melt to the pour pot. This way the pour pot stays cleaner for a lot longer time. The dross just doesn't float on the surface of the melt it sticks very stubbornly to the side and bottom walls of the pot and that also includes the rod which rests in the pour spout. When we flux this only removes the dross which is suspended in the melt but it doesn't really remove the oxide layers clinging to the walls or the valve stem of the pot. And regular fluxing just makes the matter worse for the side walls and valve stem! Another good practice is to flush the pour spout with hot melt prior to casting. This can only be done if you have a second pot full of melt in reserve. I will hold a small Lee ingot mould under the pour pot and then open the valve stem to max. and let about 2-3 lbs. of melt flush the pour spout clean. If the flow is still not uniform then I'll try and free up the hole with a steel nail and the flush the spout again until the lead melt flows uniformly. Sometimes, actuating the the operating lever quickly in a sort of repeated start-stop mode can help solve the issues with drips. Or lightly tapping the top pf the valve stem with a 2-4 oz. hammer ensures that the valve stem sits snugly in the seat of the pour spout. If the temperatures of both pots are balanced then you will have a lot less fluctuations in the temperature on the pour pot and you'll be amazed on the positive effect this has on the weight variations of your cast bullets! Just some food for thought as they say.

Best regards,

Adrian, Germany.

[dragonrider]

I use a bottom pour Lee 20 pound pot. IMHO the most important thing to do with your bottom pour pot is to keep it clean, the only way to keep it clean is to flux with sawdust, nothing else, ever.
No wax, no oils, no boolit lube. All these things do is make your pot a dirty mess with gunk stuck to the sides and you spend all your time scraping and stirring and introducing a lot of stuff you don't wand into your lead. For those who prefer ladles, I am glad you like em, I certainly don't. I see no to introduce another step in the process of getting lead from pot to mold.

[suba]

I was a lurker here for a long time before I joined, and then have only recently posted. I spent a lot of time researching bottom pour vs ladle. While I believe you can get good results with either, I choose ladle.

I have only one mold. A brass 400gr .452 single cavity. Then I bought a Waage, a few old ladles to do low production. I've learned a great deal about casting here. Much more than I ever wanted to know.

My boolits turn out good. Really good. I attribute part of that to ladle pour. Although I can't be sure and will never know, I doubt I could produce such consistently good boolits with a bottom pour. At least I think the learning curve is shorter with a ladle and there are more variations to experiment with. Just my opinion...fwiw.

[DaveCampbell]

Gentlemen,

Thanks to all for your input! Across the board, each of you defended your opinions well. I'll atempt to explain both viewpoints in my article and post the link when it goes live. Then you can have at it at me!

Thanks again!

Dave

[Bret4207]

I don't think it's an either or situation. I ladle cast for 30 years before I got a BP. That BP was a disaster of a leaking, dripping, too hot/too cool piece of junk. I went back to the ladle and a larger stainless pot which made things even more better for casting. Then I got a SAECO BP, an ancient rig at that of only 10lbs capacity vs my normal 40ish lbs pot. I gotta say that the SAECO has possibilities. My chief problem is that I cannot SEE what I'm doing with the BP without getting it at eye level, the spout I mean. For me the ladle is faster, more flexible and far easier to handle, but I also use 3 different ladles for different jobs. I think, for me anyway, a ladle tends to turn out boolits that are filled out better overall than the BP. But the more I play with the BP, the more I think it's a matter of personal preference. R. Dale McGee who posts here uses a BP with satisfaction and if Dale says it works, IT WORKS.

The one thing I'd hope you could pass along in your article is the idea that both methods work and they guy that develops the skills to use both gives himself an edge over the guy that refuses to try the other way. The ladle is not outdated by any means and the BP is not an extravagance. Nothing makes me madder than reading some clowns assertion that a ladle is a cheapskates method of casting poor quality booltis. CW Rowland and Harry Pope seemed to do just fine with ladles and so did Elmer. That's good enough for me.

[williamwaco]

This is a real conundrum. I don't know the real answer but I think the correct answer is:

"It depends"

I have tested the theory twice with rifle bullets. First time a 247 grain .377 bullet and the second was a Lee .30 cal.

The results were inconclusive. You can see them here:


http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/bottom-pour-vs-ladle-weight.htm


.

[cbrick]

I don't think it's an either or situation.

No, I don't think so either. While I mostly ladle cast anymore it's doubtful I'll live long enough to cast as many bullets with a ladle as I have from the bottom pour.

As Bret said, if you only do one or the other and either haven't or refuse to try the other you’re missing the boat. They do both work and work well, there are pluses and minus's with both. After giving both methods a good and thorough try then the method that you’re happiest with the results is certainly the proper and best way for you to cast.

For me I still bottom pour some but mostly I ladle these days. I no longer cast to get 2,000 of these and 4,000 of those. I used to but what I ended up with was rows of bins of cast bullets, many of which I no longer had guns for and after a few years they end up back in the pot. Now I cast what I need, a hundred of these, a few hundred of those and when I need more I cast more. Ladle casting for me is more relaxing, a bit slower but fewer rejects and I’m in no hurry . . . Retirement is wonderful, I highly recommend it.

Rick