Hellllllllpppppppppppppp

[Lugnutz]

Ok you leadheads, give me some advice. A friend of mine just recieved a 44mag Tender bbl. Rifling looks good..until we shot it.

240 gr boolits cast from ww. Sized at 432. Medium loads.

Problem, severe leading after 24 rounds. Other big major stinkin problem, bullets tumble.


Any ideas? This was our first outting with the new to him barrel.

Ok so we know that the boolits were not too small. Maybe too big?

Boolits were not undersized. Maybe too big?

Boolits were not driven at excessive speeds....HELP! :confused:

[madcaster]

Sounds stoopid I know,but they ARE getting lube in the lube grooves aren't they?
Jeff.

[Lugnutz]

I'm pretty sure they are. I wasn't there for the sizing lubing process. But I know Mark and he is pretty anal...a bit wild..but anal about doing things right.

[Scrounger]

Ok you leadheads, give me some advice. A friend of mine just recieved a 44mag Tender bbl. Rifling looks good..until we shot it.

240 gr boolits cast from ww. Sized at 432. Medium loads.

Problem, severe leading after 24 rounds. Other big major stinkin problem, bullets tumble.


Any ideas? This was our first outting with the new to him barrel.

Ok so we know that the boolits were not too small. Maybe too big?

Boolits were not undersized. Maybe too big?

Boolits were not driven at excessive speeds....HELP! :confused:

Are you sure that's not a .45 barrel?

[9.3X62AL]

Slug the throat and barrel--you cannot assume that .432" is large enough without dimensional confirmation. Also--was the barrel cleaned of ALL copper fouling prior to the cast boolit test drive? There's nothing like those red deposits to abrade boolit metal and set up lead fouling.

[376Steyr]

The bullets are tumbling? I'd say check the twist rate of the rifling to make sure it isn't something wildly out of spec. I think it should be about 1 turn in 18 inches.

The only time I've personally had trouble with tumbling bullets was with a .22 LR revolver, which had a badly leaded forcing cone. After I cleaned it up it shot pretty good.

[Buckshot]

................I wonder what the throat and the leade look like? A freind got a new Contender bbl once and he said it looked like someone had run a tap in the throat like they were trying to thread it. Sent it back and TC said, "Oops, here's a new one" :-)

...............Buckshot

[Lugnutz]

barrel was nice and clean before we started. its gonna get slugged shortly. just a strange experience. thanks for the help guys

[Lugnutz]

ok Mark slugged the barrel today and it is a 429. the ww cast boolits were water dropped and spec out at 432. Ok so we are not undersized. We shouldnt be too soft and the loads were "warm" not top of the spec and not bottom.

So what should we look at next?

[cbrick]

ok Mark slugged the barrel today and it is a 429. the ww cast boolits were water dropped and spec out at 432. Ok so we are not undersized. We shouldnt be too soft and the loads were "warm" not top of the spec and not bottom. So what should we look at next?

I think .003" over groove diameter a little large but I would look at things like the throat, wouldn't be the first T/C I've seen that left the factory without one cut into the chamber or cut incorrectly. I highly recommend your looking over these articles by Mike Bellm on why T/C's shoot . . . or don't.

http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesBellm.htm

Read this article for sure.

http://www.lasc.us/BellmChamberCasts.htm

Rick

[GP100man]

lugnutz
what kind of lube are yall using & how are yall applying it???
where was leading ,the whole length of barrel ???
GP
:castmine:

[doc25]

Boolit is too fast. Same happened in my Enfield. Slow it way down. What was the speed you got from chrony? I had to drop 10 grains off powder charge (don't do this off hand).

[Lugnutz]

we didnt break out the chrony. Leading the whole length of barrel. Not sure how he lubed them as I wasn't there for that part. Using a homebrew lube that he uses on other casts.

[doc25]

Try reducing the Vel. I'm sure it'll help or change the ww to something harder.

[Bass Ackward]

To get a good idea, you need to slug three times. One in the throat ond back out, one in the muzzle and back out and one all the way throaugh.

Tumbling is a stabilization issue. One thing not addresses is either a larger bore at the muzzle or a bad crown. The slugging routine above identifies all.

[44man]

I didn't comment because I have had so many bad TC's that I cringe when they are mentioned. I sold all of mine long ago. TC replaced some barrels for me and in every case, the new one was worse then the one I had them take off. Same with their muzzle loaders.
I never had the money to get an after market barrel or to have custom work done on them so I just gave up on them. I have done gunsmith work forever, building rifles, stocks, checkering, refinishing and anything I could do by hand. I could not afford machine tools to do barrel work so I was stuck with what I bought.
Since this is the case with most shooters, most are stuck with doubling the price of a gun to get them to shoot.
The very worst thing is to sell a great gun so you have the money to buy something else that is highly touted to be the best, only to find the new gun is junk. Been there, done that, many times. I never had the money to keep every gun I bought and cry about what I have sold.
Some have had good luck with TC's and thats what I call it---LUCK.

[.44 Swede]

Heavy leading after only 24 shots is almost always a problem with the lube or the lead being too soft. It can also be the barrel being to rugged. Have You tried barrel honing??

Just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.

Good luck!

[rmb721]

I would try sizing the bullets to .429 or .430 and make sure you have a good lube.

[cbrick]

Try reducing the Vel. I'm sure it'll help or change the ww to something harder.

While Lugnutz didn't specify his load in this thread he did mention that it was middle of the road, not hot and not mild.

It is doubtful in the extreme that he needs an alloy harder than quenched WW. Wheel weight alloy quenched is in the area of 18 BHN and that is plenty hard for anything that T/C barrel is going to shoot. Going harder could only make things worse, not better.


Heavy leading after only 24 shots is almost always a problem with the lube or the lead being too soft. Good luck!

The only way this could be a lube problem is if there were no lube put on the bullets.

He is using quenched WW. His alloy is not too soft.

Given 18 BHN bullets .003" over groove diameter and assuming the bullets were lubed with almost anything . . . this is a firearm dimension problem.

I highly recommend that anyone that thinks this might be a lube problem or an alloy BHN problem to view this article. If you don't want to take the time to learn something by reading it, at least look over the pictures of T/C chamber casts on the bottom of the page. These chambers are fairly common with T/C, even from their custom shop. After looking at the pictures come back here and post that this is a lube or BHN problem.

http://www.lasc.us/BellmChamberCasts.htm

Rick

[Ricochet]

Actually, BA's slugging routine isn't enough. You need to slug the chamber throats as well as the throat, muzzle and all the way through the bore to be thorough. The cylinder throats MUST be as big as or bigger than the groove diameter. Also, with a revolver, you have to have nearly perfect "timing" or alignment of the chambers with the bore. If it locks up a little to one side at firing, it'll shave off lead on one side. Then the lopsided boolit won't fill the bore. It may tip to one side, leading to open gaps around much of the circumference of the boolit, not just on one edge. You'll get bad leakage, gas cutting and metal spraying as a result. If you're leading the bore badly enough, the grooves will fill with lead so the boolit will strip and tumble because it's not being spun.

Firing pure lead balls with full powder charges through my Walker replica quickly leads to the "no grooves" condition with the grooves completely full to the top with lead. There's insufficient bearing surface at the edge of the ball to seal well after it gets a runny-go through the freebore in the end of the cylinder and strips in the rifling, so it gas cuts.

[44man]

Ricochet, With a full charge in the cap and ball, isn't the ball at the end of the cylinder on the Walker? I never had one but it seems to me that there should be no "runny up". I have had Colt's, Remingtons and now have the Ruger Old Army. If I use a smaller charge, I put some COW or corn meal over the powder to keep the ball near the end of the cylinder.
Most guys use Crisco over the ball but it doesn't work because when you shoot the first chamber, the grease all blows out from in front of the other balls. I use a thick BPCR lube instead and most stays put and provides a good lube ahead of the ball.
I never had any luck with wads under the ball and it just takes up powder space. Since I hunt deer with mine, I want a full charge. I get 41 gr's of Swiss FFFG in the Ruger.
If I remember, the Walker will hold 60 gr's..

[Ricochet]

It's right close to the end of the cylinder. That means a runny-go of 1/2 the ball diameter. Comparable to the freebore in a Weatherby rifle that so many rifle shooters and handloaders make so much to-do about. Black powder and Pyrodex are degressive powders that ramp up pressure very quickly. The ball's got a pretty good start before it hits the rifling. 60 grains behind a ball with the grease in front really doesn't work well in my experience. Must be why Colt only made about 1000 original Walkers before cutting the cylinder down to hold 40 grains in each chamber for the Dragoons. But it sure is fun to shoot with all that fire, blast and smoke coming out!
:mrgreen:

[threett1]

Wow, all this attention and I just noticed it. Yea, its my baby. Lugz gave most of the facts, I'll finish. 19.5gr 2400 under a ww water dropped boolit at 432. Lubed with Lee Liquid Earwax. The reason the boolits were so big is that I load for another buddy whose Blackhawk has 432 throats. I had never needed a sizing die because my mold dropped them perfect for him. Since then I have picked up a 429 die. The tender barrel is a recent aquisition. This was the first time out with it. Only 44 I have. Lugz thought it was my homemade lube because we had my 41 and 357 out at the same time with the 44 using it in those other loads. The first thing I'm going to do is cast some more boolits with an alloy I have of about 14bhn and not water drop it. Will size them at 429. Probly try a standard lube too. Besides that I'm going to clean the barrel up real good again and slug all dimensions like was suggested. If worst comes to worst I'll pick up some J words and have a go. Any other suggestions from the Brethren is appreciated.:castmine:

[Ricochet]

I've had lots of leading problems with plain based boolits loaded over 2400 that shot great with 296 or WC820 at higher velocities than the loads that leaded so badly with 2400. 2400 is a very hot burning double based powder. Ball powders burn much cooler. They technically are double based, but seldom have over 10% nitroglycerine and the deterrent usually found in them is dibutyl phthalate, which is a nonenergetic compound. Fuel without oxidizer, that is. The deterrent on 2400 is dinitrotoluene, itself an energetic compound.

[cbrick]

I'll pick up some J words and have a go.

:veryconfu :eek: :shock:

That's a terrible thing to say. You should wash your mouth out, didn't your mother teach you that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything?

[threett1]

Nah, Mom was always one to run her mouth too much herself.:mrgreen: Ricochet, great chemistry lesson. And I thought I got into the science of stuff. I don't hold a candle to some of you guys.

[44man]

If that TC is 1 in 18, I think you are going to have to try a longer boolit. One way to check is to borrow some larger boolits or buy some 300 gr J bullets.
I really don't think the diameter or type of lube would cause tumbling. I feel it is a better boolit to twist rate you have to find.
If you cut the velocity way down with a small charge of fast powder and it stops tumbling, you will know for sure.
Ricochet, I always wanted to shoot one of those Walkers. I wonder what it would look like at night? Make a heck of a fourth of July display. Mix a little powdered aluminum and some other colors into the powder.

[gregg]

I didn't comment because I have had so many bad TC's that I cringe when they are mentioned. I sold all of mine long ago. TC replaced some barrels for me and in every case, the new one was worse then the one I had them take off. Same with their muzzle loaders. .

WOW makes me feel good hearing it from someone else.

TC ML's had three go thru my home years back. Mid 80's . Only one shot
worth talking about. Other two were Junk. Senica(sp) had loose and tight
spots full lengh of the barrel ***. The other one felt ok but would not shoot. Still
have it. Wifes TC hawken 50 shot like a house a fire. Will alway have it and will go to the kids.

OBTW 19.5 Gr 2400 might be a little warm on a PB bullet. Should not be but sure could be ? Lube might gotten little old
depending what you made it out of ? Keep us updated.

[.44 Swede]

I highly recommend that anyone that thinks this might be a lube problem or an alloy BHN problem to view this article. If you don't want to take the time to learn something by reading it, at least look over the pictures of T/C chamber casts on the bottom of the page. These chambers are fairly common with T/C, even from their custom shop. After looking at the pictures come back here and post that this is a lube or BHN problem.

http://www.lasc.us/BellmChamberCasts.htm

Rick[/QUOTE]

OK, I see what You mean!!

[44man]

Very good article. I have always said TC doesn't know how to make a gun and have taken a lot of flack over it on posts.
For years I have said if you get a TC that is super accurate, keep it forever because you might never get another one.
All of those revolver cartridge chambers are cut like a shotgun, same size to the rifling. Can you imagine how a revolver would shoot if there were no throats, just bore all the way through?
I rest my case and won't accept any more flack for my opinions, so there flflllfflflft.

[Ricochet]

Ricochet, I always wanted to shoot one of those Walkers. I wonder what it would look like at night? Make a heck of a fourth of July display. Mix a little powdered aluminum and some other colors into the powder.
With real black powder (hard for me to get now), it's really lovely at night! HUGE fireball, with a blue fringe around an orange core, and some showering sparks. Haven't tried any other pyrotechnics in it. Pyrodex isn't nearly as flashy, just some orange fire and a lot less of it. Doesn't smell as good, either, and is highly corrosive.

[lovedogs]

A Contender in .44 doesn't need an extremely smooth bore to not lead. Mine has lots of machining marks but shoots lead-free always. I agree with the dimensional or alignment problems as being the issue here. If the bbl. is even in size from one end to the other, or slightly tighter at the muzzle end, it should be okay that way. It sounds to me like it could be a chambering issue. If they cut a chamber off-center or out of alignment with the bore it'd squirt those bullets into the rifling at an angle, which would make it lead badly. The bullets would "yaw" down the bbl. and probably tumble, as described. Some don't care for Mike Bellm's doings but I've found him helpful and informative. He's got a lot more going for him than T/C has! I've had very good luck with all of my Contenders but have seen a lot of the new G2's and Encores that were real lemons.

[Lugnutz]

Thank you guys for your time and knowledge. I see some time in the reloading room/lab in the near future. And thank goodness my first Encore is gonna be a full out custom. When I get her, I'll post some pics! Man I can't wait till it shows up and the weather evens out a bit.

[TAWILDCATT]

Usually If The Bullets Keyhole They Are Not Going Fast Enough To Stabelize.i Had It In A Hipoint 9mm And It Was The Pologonal Rifling Tc Does Not Rifle That Way.up The Load Slowly And Check After Every Shot To See If It Leads.
The Cap & Ball Do You Grease The Chambers After Loading.
Wildcatt

[cbrick]

Very good article. I have always said TC doesn't know how to make a gun and have taken a lot of flack over it on posts.


You're wrong 44man. T/C knows exactly how to make a gun. However, knowing how and making money are two very different things. You can spend the money on the best of the right types of machine tools and hire people that take pride in their work . . . or, make money. The sport of silhouette literally made T/C. They wouldn't even still be in business today if it weren't for silhouette but they have totally abandoned the sport now.

Surprisingly there are quite a few T/C barrels that actually shoot surprisingly good groups. The rest wouldn't make decent tent stakes.

The T/C break open action is a very viable single shot. The best way to get one is to buy the action and send it off to J.D. Jones or Fred Smith at Bullberry and get it back with the barrel/caliber of your choice. A much better option than buying a tent stake.

Rick

[lovedogs]

It's unfortunate... I've heard so many stories about bad work by T/C. From what I've heard the new stuff is outright terrible, especially the G2 and Encore. I've got older models, actually the last make of the old style before the G2's, and it's a good Contender frame with a good adjustable trigger. I've had quite a few of their bbls. and have all been good ones. At present I've only got what I consider my minimum of four Contender bbls. and they are all excellent shooters with no problems at all. Maybe I'm just lucky. I, for one, can't afford some of those custom shop bbls. I'd like to try a SSK or Bullberry but I can't afford them. So I guess I've lucked out with my T/C bbls.

[threett1]

Update on my little "problem" barrel. Got it dredged out again to sparkling cleaness. It has a nice looking chamber and a very smooth and even looking throat in it. This is personal observation and by no means expert. It slugs 429 after the throat and then.....430 at the muzzle.:( I cast some 429244s this morning and will probly not be able to test them out til next week. we will see what happens, will see if I can pick up those fake J word projectiles and try them too. Will report back.

[HORNET]

threett1,
I'm surprised Bass hasn't been on here telling you to fire-lap that puppy.:roll: It'll open that throat just a tad and make it even smoother. It might surprise you though and shoot fine as-is. Them barrels are funny things at times.:mrgreen: