Heavy hollow point (HP) boolits for 44 and 45 for revolvers

[Onty]

What is your opinion about very heavy hollow point (HP) for revolvers? Many prefer just plain flat point (FP) for handgun hunt for deep penetration and exist wound, crucial for eventual tracking. Because of this last requirement, HP is not considered by them as an ideal boolit since mushroomed boolit lacks penetration, and in many cases hide on other side just holds it, and no exit wound.

Now, if we combine heavy boolit with HP feature, we might have combination that will give us large wound channel and deep penetration. I was playing bit on computer just to see what I am going to get, and here is the picture of 44-325 and 45-360 HP boolits;

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g337/Onty50/44-45-HP-1.jpg

44-325-HP
Nominal dia: .432
Meplat dia : .340
Crimp to meplat: .450
OAL: .925

45-360-HP
Nominal dia: .454
Meplat dia : .362
Crimp to meplat: .450
OAL: .925

Since these are not intended for plinking, I added gas check for better accuracy and to prevent leading. Weights are listed with GC for penta HP, round cavity HP-s are few grains lighter.

Please have a look and let me know what do you think.

Thanks, Onty

[Blammer]

I think this is the heaviest boolit that will stabilize in my 44mag.

The "fatter" one is a 50 cal (.501 dia) the other is 44cal.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN8129.jpg

Anything much above 330gr doesn't stabilize well for me past 100yds.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/44list-1.jpg

I would not go any heavier.

[Lefty SRH]

I'm interested in finding an LBT style HP boolit that weighs 330-ish. I know the gun already likes 330gr solids. But my state requires "expanding/mushrooming ammunition".

[Onty]

I'm interested in finding an LBT style HP boolit that weighs 330-ish. I know the gun already likes 330gr solids. But my state requires "expanding/mushrooming ammunition".

Look for 45-325, GB was done recently. Miha might still have some overruns.

[Bret4207]

Sometimes HP's expand in meat, sometimes they don't. FP's also expand a bit if they encounter enough resistance. I think if folks would stop making their boolits from HARD CAST alloy and trying to get Bhn readings up in the mid to high 20's or more we'd see a lot more mushrooming from our FN ammo. Somewhere in my collection of recovered boolits I have a 32 x 90ish gr boolit recovered from a Grey Squirrel that shows mushrooming. It was a Lyman design, I forget the number, cast from WW/lead as an experiment fired from a 32 S+W Long rifle. It probably wasn't going more than 1K fps at the muzzle. I also have FN 311316's cast from straight WW plus a little tin that show decent mushrooming from coyotes on angling shots.

HP's are great if the work. If they don't and don't have a flat or blunt nose to start with them you may have a problem. FN's always work given enough oomph. Just my thoughts.Start with a FN and HP it and you get the best of both worlds.

[44man]

Nothing at all wrong with a hollow point. It is just more work and actual testing to hit the alloy right. That might be the main reason I don't use them in the .44 but the .45 Colt would really benefit from a HP.
Now the large doe I shot Fri with a .44 solid WLN had massive lung damage when I hit her behind the shoulder so I hesitate to use a HP. I had more internal damage then I ever got with a 240 gr XTP.
Now look at my 45-70 with solids! It is too fast and works like a champ with a softer HP, in fact go too soft and you will destroy all kinds of meat. I have not used it lately because I still have to work on the proper alloy to keep meat from turning to mush. The year went by too fast and the season is here.
Larger calibers like the .475 and .500 JRH make me avoid any expanding bullet because they are so destructive it is scary with a water dropped WW boolit at 22 BHN.
My suggestion for the .44 is to not look for quick expansion, tone it down.
I just can't express how good the .44 is with a plain WLN or WFN. I would NEVER turn my back on the great caliber, may it live forever! [smilie=s:

[44man]

I'm interested in finding an LBT style HP boolit that weighs 330-ish. I know the gun already likes 330gr solids. But my state requires "expanding/mushrooming ammunition".
That only shows the state knows nothing about the .44 revolver! [smilie=l:

[white eagle]

My State has that same stipulation
however,you can get around that without a hp
if you use a g/c like I see on your design you are almost there
just soften up your alloy and you have and expanding boolit
in all the years I have been hunting I have never been asked if I was using
expanding boolits ......not to say it can't happen though but it is very unlikely

[JJC]

Colorado has a expanding bullet regulation also. I took that as a round nose solid bullet one may use for dangerous game? I have never been asked the type of ammo I was using. But if asked I would be able to explain my boolit, alloy, ect till the guy was board and gave up. You could always scratch it to show it was a soft alloy too, therefore expand on impact.

[sqlbullet]

I bet we could set all kinds of tests where jacketed HP won't expand and a soft nose lead bullet will. Not having a cavity to plug makes our boolits impervious to all manner of issues that will stop a JHP from expansion.

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer HPs for hunting with cast bullets in both rifle and handgun. Getting the alloy correct is not all that difficult but most do cast them too hard as mentioned. I also prefer GC'd cast bullets for this use as the can be cast much softer and maintain accuracy for a given velcocity than a PB'd cast bullet, especially with magnum level loads above 1300 fps in revolvers.

What I've never quite understood is the desire for such heavy weight bullets for deer/elk/antelope etc. hunting. I've been using HP'd cast bullets in the 357, 41 and 44 magnums for years and have never had any so called "penetration" problems often mentioned by those justifying heavier or hard cast bullets. Yes I have used the "heavies in each caliber mentioned in revolvers. I found them not to be as effective as a good cast HP of medium weight for the cartridge. Yes the heavier bullets do kill but they do not kill as quick as the proper HPs.

The velocity is lower, many times much lower for the heavies. A HP'd cast bullet of proper allou with a correct HP driven at 1350 - 1400+ fps from a 6"+ barreled revolver is very effective on game. I most often use 16-1 or 20-1 alloy or WW+2% tin/lead at 50/50 or 30/70 (depending on batch of WWs and cartridge/bullet used) for my magnum revolver HP cast bullets. the 16-1 works well for the same cast bullets in these magnum cartridges out of rifles or Contenders. I prefer the 358156 for the .357, the 410610 for the 41 and the 429244 or the 429640HP for the 44.

I've no qualms with those who use hard cast bullets or the heavies for hunting. I just don't think it's necessary to denegrate correctly cast HPs to justify the use of the hard cast or heavies is all. I would use any of them to hunt with as, with properly placed bullets, they all will kill game. It's just that i prefer the HPS better effectiveness is all. BTW; by "effectiveness" I mean the quickness of the kill. A properly expanding HP kills quicker because it damages more and dumps its energy in the game more than a non expanding bullet. Also, if it doesn't expand then Its still just as effective as the non expanding bullets.

Larry Gibson

[cbrick]

Glen wrote an article on heavy weights in the 44 mag, perhaps this will help.

Is the .44 Magnum becoming overweight? (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_44Overweight.pdf)

Rick

[fredj338]

I took the Lyman Dev & had Erik make a cup point pin for it. So now I have a 270gr HP that expands some @ 1225fps but penetrates completely leaving a good wound channel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg

[44man]

Glen wrote an article on heavy weights in the 44 mag, perhaps this will help.

Is the .44 Magnum becoming overweight? (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_44Overweight.pdf)

Rick
Good article. That is what I have found and it was a surprise his loads are the same as I use except for the primer.
My heaviest boolit is 330 gr and it was just a mistake when I made the mold but it shoots too good to change. That is the one that did 1-5/16" at 200 yards. One reason is I made the ogive to match the forcing cone of 11*.
The Lee 310 is an amazing boolit too.
We tested the 405 gr and it just plain sucks, lacking penetration, velocity, energy and even turning sideways at 50 yards. I figured 330 gr is tops for the .44.
The way I look at the heavy boolit is they shed velocity slower in an animal, transmit energy deeper along a longer path and continue to disrupt tissue after a lighter boolit has lost it. That is boolit work instead of the false energy dump idea.
If you lose all the energy in the first 3" and the boolit just slowly makes it a little deeper without a second hole, I will take the longer destructive path and a second hole every time.
It might punch a huge hole in the ground after penetration or even go through a second deer behind the first but that energy is not "wasted" because it did all needed in the first deer. Proper application of the sad amount of energy the .44 really has, it is NOT a rifle.
I have stacked up a ton of deer with the 330 gr and it is very rare for a deer to make more then 20 yards with a shot behind the shoulder. Lungs pour out.
I have seen the difference boolit weight makes as long as there is balance and accuracy. Take the .475 with a 420 gr hard boolit. It blows 4, gallon jugs of water to the sky and splits 2 more badly, yet will go through 14 jugs. That is a long path of energy! The .44 would give out with 2 jugs blown and not go through many . Some of the boolits used will only blow 1 jug.
Shoot a deer with the .475 and the heavier boolit AT THE SAME VELOCITY as the .44 shows the amount of tissue destroyed from the longer, stronger energy path is amazing.
Boolit diameter will enter in but in the end it is controlled loss of energy along a longer path that works best. Never instant loss.
Don't think making the boolit faster and faster will make it better because it will turn around and bite you by poking a hole. That is where you NEED expansion to slow the boolit inside an animal although a very large animal like a buf, etc, is tough enough to make use of a harder boolit. Someone labled it "dwell time."
So let's take a .44 revolver with a hard, heavy boolit at around 1316 fps and a rifle at say, 1700 fps. Which will kill faster if we shoot double lungs with no bone hits? The revolver will, every time!
Now soften the rifle boolit and it will outstrip the revolver every time.

[x101airborne]

[QUOTE=44man;1481676] That is the one that did 1-5/16" at 200 yards. One reason is I made the ogive to match the forcing cone of 11*.

I REALLY wish you could give me shome shooting and reloading lessons. Some of my favorite deer rifles wont shoot that off a bench.

For pistol uses (and common ranges) I have always had better luck at 1100 fps or less than at 1400. Especially using hollow points of any construction, lead or jacketed. Flat point designs I havent had much experience with recovering them, so it is hard for me to say wether the boolit performed better or not on game depending on velocity. Even through heavy bone and tissue, I have never recovered any of my flat point boolits from an animal. And I have shot a couple hogs over 300 pounds both broadside and in the posterior running away. Booits always give straight line penetration completely through the animal.

[45 2.1]

The way I look at the heavy boolit is they shed velocity slower in an animal, transmit energy deeper along a longer path and continue to disrupt tissue after a lighter boolit has lost it. That is boolit work instead of the false energy dump idea.

You look at energy equations and your idea of what happens flies in the face of reality. If the boolit doesn't slow somewhat, little energy is expended. Look at the results posted about the "Ruger only" boolit. Starts out at over 300 gr. and has about 112 gr. at revovery. The energy or force that boolit was carrying went somewhere........... in the anumal, not the hillside behind it.
On another note, you use large caliber heavy flat nose boolits on small animals to try to impart more energy into the animal before the boolit leaves its body. You usually shoot bone to. Its just a way of trying to get more killing/disruptive energy into the animal. A large hollow point boolit sheds it's nose creating secondary projectiles and damage while the base goes on thru (with a ragged nose) cutting up the animal creating more damage than a flat nose does if it remains intact. My boolits impart more killing effect than any solid for the cartridge and caliber used. BTDT and have noted those results for the last twenty years since this state allowed handgun hunting for big game. Varmints with lighter bodies got that benefit long before that.

[44man]

[QUOTE=44man;1481676] That is the one that did 1-5/16" at 200 yards. One reason is I made the ogive to match the forcing cone of 11*.

I REALLY wish you could give me shome shooting and reloading lessons. Some of my favorite deer rifles wont shoot that off a bench.

For pistol uses (and common ranges) I have always had better luck at 1100 fps or less than at 1400. Especially using hollow points of any construction, lead or jacketed. Flat point designs I havent had much experience with recovering them, so it is hard for me to say wether the boolit performed better or not on game depending on velocity. Even through heavy bone and tissue, I have never recovered any of my flat point boolits from an animal. And I have shot a couple hogs over 300 pounds both broadside and in the posterior running away. Booits always give straight line penetration completely through the animal.
This is entirely true and I have said it forever. The lower velocity is BETTER with a HP and only enough weight is needed for penetration. Then again, a slower boolit can also go deeper then when velocity is very high.
I look at it this way. A slow boolit just plods through and cuts all it touches so if the nose disrupts just enough, it cuts a larger hole. It is why a slow boolit still works.
A larger meplat at higher velocity does not cut as good because it transfers more energy and creates a large heavily damaged primary wound channel. The secondary wound channel is not a good killer unless it sends shock to the brain, etc. That channel will collapse and actually look like normal tissue.
Speed up the boolit too much and the pressure wave from the flat meplat expands out forward moving more tissue out in a secondary channel that when it collapses, you just have a hole that actually cut less then the slow boolit. This again is where a disrupting, expanding boolit is what is needed.
If you notice, I only shoot hard cast, flat meplats at a certain velocity range. Anything other really needs expansion. It is why I don't argue over HP's or soft boolits. I feel between 1300 and 1350 fps is where the hard boolit needs to stay.
I am never going to tell anyone that a hard boolit can be shot any which way because it can't. Too many just miss what I say about the hard boolit. Then listen up, A hard .44 boolit kills WORSE at 100 yards because the best velocity has bled off so expansion would be better. However hard is where my accuracy is so the trade off for me might not be good.
I can't argue with 45 2.1 because he is also correct but I will dispute "energy dump." His boolits put more tissue in harms way. A deer hit with a .44 that does not exit might not even flinch. A 240 gr at 1100 only has 645 fp of energy.
My .500 JRH has 1781 fp.
Now get this one, my 45-70 bfr has 1952 fp but I have had deer just stand there, take a second shot and walk off.

[pmer]

Onty, do the meplats need to be that big since they are hollow points? I wonder if long range accuarcy would be better if they were a bit smaller.

Is the .450 nose length to the bottom crimp grove? Lever guys might want something a little shorter.

[45 2.1]

I can't argue with 45 2.1 because he is also correct but I will dispute "energy dump." His boolits put more tissue in harms way. A deer hit with a .44 that does not exit might not even flinch.

Oh, they flinch alright (with all HPs)......You really need to see it to believe it................ Deer shot with a 357 Mag 140 gr. HP run about 40 yards and drop. 41 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Mag and 45 Colt usually drop in place when hit right with properly done HPs. No more running off when shot by solids BS. I much prefer to put the energy needed to cleanly kill the animal in the proper spot in its body rather than it going into the ground past it. I'll stay with what works best for me. If any deer walks or runs off when hit by a flat nosed 45-70 boolit, then your the one doing something wrong. BTDT in some rifle states next to mine.

[feets]

I'm not a hunter but I have a friend who wants to use one of my handguns and go bowling for Bambi.
My boolit stash includes the Cast Performance 335 WLFN. If what you are saying is correct, it would be better for him to use my 454 to push them between 1300 and 1400 fps than it would to have them moving 2000 fps out of my 460 Encore. Is that correct?
If that's the case, I'd need to move back to the 250 SST J-word in the 460. I can easily send them at 2200 fps with decent accuracy. Being a muzzle loading bullet, it's made for those velocities.

I've been reading about the wide meplat doing damage beyond what would normally be expected. If you push them to fast will it set up a pressure wave in front of the bullet or something? What causes the lower amount of damage at high speed?

Maybe I should load up the 270 Thunderheads (.442" meplat) and push 'em to 1300 fps in the heavy Colt loads. I've thought about doing that for short range piggie work.

I have noticed that most of the high pressure ammo makers tend to cut the 454 off around 1500 fps. One of the gun writers made a comment about that being an effective upper limit for use on game despite the guns being capable of much more.

Enlighten this paper puncher if you could.

[pmer]

I had to look and saw the same on Cast Performance website. They load to about 1500 FPS for the 454 and even the 500 S&W. They load 260 jacketed to 1750 in the 454 too.
:popcorn:
I'm pretty happy using flat points when out hunting. I think you're better off with a nice sized exit hole. When folks say energy dump inside the animal, it makes me think about varmit projectiles. Or professional shooters thinning animals in urban areas. How much of that vaporized lead gets into the animals blood stream and surrounding tissue anyways?

If I want to see what my boolit looks like I'll bring a shovel. :bigsmyl2:

Seriously tho I think the more the animal is angled away from you the better the FN looks.

[Onty]

Onty, do the meplats need to be that big since they are hollow points? I wonder if long range accuarcy would be better if they were a bit smaller.

Is the .450 nose length to the bottom crimp grove? Lever guys might want something a little shorter.

Forgot to mention; I was thinking about Miha and his Cramer moulds. The beauty of his system is that you can just flip HP pins, or get blank ones, and cast solid FP.

[44man]

Oh, they flinch alright (with all HPs)......You really need to see it to believe it................ Deer shot with a 357 Mag 140 gr. HP run about 40 yards and drop. 41 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Mag and 45 Colt usually drop in place when hit right with properly done HPs. No more running off when shot by solids BS. I much prefer to put the energy needed to cleanly kill the animal in the proper spot in its body rather than it going into the ground past it. I'll stay with what works best for me. If any deer walks or runs off when hit by a flat nosed 45-70 boolit, then your the one doing something wrong. BTDT in some rifle states next to mine.
Correct again, the 45-70 boolit was too hard and is why I have not used it this season because I have not had time to make a better alloy or a two part boolit.
I was wrong in thinking the hard WFN would work shot that fast. Since this was the first revolver I bought that had that velocity, it has been a learning experience.
Remember the deer I shot with Babore's 420 gr, 50-50 hollow point where I destroyed the entire off shoulder and turned the whole deer into a bloodshot mess? That is also what I want to avoid.
Can you imagine what a .500 JRH, 50-50 hollow point would do? [smilie=l: The last deer I shot with it had the neck, shoulder, heart, lungs, liver, stomach and half the intestines turned to soup and I used a 22 BHN boolit. Half the intestines were out the exit hole.
No, I don't think I want a soft boolit for that one or the .475 either.
Everything I try is to kill fast yet not be too destructive.
I can say for a fact that the larger, heavier boolits would be better for T Rex! :bigsmyl2:

[x101airborne]

Remember the deer I shot with Babore's 420 gr, 50-50 hollow point where I destroyed the entire off shoulder and turned the whole deer into a bloodshot mess? That is also what I want to avoid.
Can you imagine what a .500 JRH, 50-50 hollow point would do? [smilie=l: The last deer I shot with it had the neck, shoulder, heart, lungs, liver, stomach and half the intestines turned to soup and I used a 22 BHN boolit. Half the intestines were out the exit hole.
:bigsmyl2:

Well, allow me to tickle your funny bone.

I am casting for my Alexander Arms 50 Beowulfs that came in the mail Monday. That's right. 3 of em. Custom NOE molds throwing a 501 diamater hollow point big enough to fit any 30 cal boolit in the nose. These weigh in at 450 grains for the plain base and 500 grains for the gas checked version. Alexander Arms said to use 500 Smith data minus 10% for load data. This leaves me with the 450 plain base at 1600 with no leading whatsoever (I stopped here to prevent damage to the base) and the 500 grain gas check at 1750 fps out of a 16 inch barrel. Cast of 50/50 air cooled, they mushroom if you drop one on the concrete. Imagine what they are goin to do to them big ole piggys!!!! The hand of GOD!! I SMITE THEE!!!! BOOM!!!! YOU DIRT ROOTIN UP SONS OF YOU KNOW WHATS!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[x101airborne]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_155754ec16e0b3d05b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2700)

And these are the rejects!!! Even Gearnasher and Inkedbylee couldn't believe the size of these things!!

[44man]

WOW, that will explode three in a row! ;)
I would love to do that to pigs.
Get some and post some pictures.

[45 2.1]

Correct again, the 45-70 boolit was too hard and is why I have not used it this season because I have not had time to make a better alloy or a two part boolit.
I was wrong in thinking the hard WFN would work shot that fast. Since this was the first revolver I bought that had that velocity, it has been a learning experience.
Remember the deer I shot with Babore's 420 gr, 50-50 hollow point where I destroyed the entire off shoulder and turned the whole deer into a bloodshot mess? That is also what I want to avoid.
Can you imagine what a .500 JRH, 50-50 hollow point would do?
If you hadn't noticed, a cartridge with that horsepower rating should not be used to shoot bone with a big hollow point. A dished nose would be fine there. Big HPs should be used with the lesser horsepower cartridges. [smilie=l: The last deer I shot with it had the neck, shoulder, heart, lungs, liver, stomach and half the intestines turned to soup and I used a 22 BHN boolit. Half the intestines were out the exit hole.
No, I don't think I want a soft boolit for that one or the .475 either.
Everything I try is to kill fast yet not be too destructive. Try useing less power and use those big guns for bigger animals.............. works better that way.
I can say for a fact that the larger, heavier boolits would be better for T Rex! :bigsmyl2: Yep, I agree with that.

[44man]

I tried loading down with HS-6 and it was OK with the .475 but the JRH needs more velocity so far but I have not worked with it enough.
The .475 has been perfect so far with insides gone but no meat loss.
I like the big guns but the old .44 can't be beat. I don't feel bad saying it is most likely the best deer gun ever.

[USSR]

Have to laugh at you guys using "thunderbooming-loudensplitten" loads for bambi. My S&W 25-5 with Miha's .45-270 HP in front of 18 grains of 2400 (~1075fps) took down my large doe with complete penetration and without fuss or muss. 'Course, maybe your deer are bigger than our deer.

Don

[x101airborne]

Well..... You just kinda proved 44man's point. And mine, too! Aint the speed that kills em!! I am intentionally causing massive death and destruction to all the pigs I can, thus the unGodly hollow points. Bambi is often killed with much less, as you pointed out.

[geargnasher]

Trey, I can't wait to see what that's going to do to Mr. Piggy! Makes me think of that magazine ad Nosler (IIRC) was running recently with the crosshairs on the little mushroom cloud atop a prairie dog mound. I'll bet if you connect with one I could hear the impact from here!

I sure wouldn't want to shoot a deer with one of those HPs, though,but maybe with a solid-nose a bit slower. That alloy is going to be devastating in any form if it shoots straight.

Gear

[x101airborne]

I ordered a Voltor recoil reducing stock and a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x30 with Leupold quick release rings befor I even got the uppers in. When they arrived, I was READY with accesories and about 50 rounds loaded for testing. Just throwing together some ammo I was getting 1 1/2 inch and under groups at 50 yards. I am sure I can get it dialed in, just need some time.

I dont want to shoot deer with it either! I have more respect for deer than that. Now hogs, on the other hand....... Boy, I didnt think it would, but this sure is filling my wants for a 50 cal hunting rifle. My next casting session I think I will make some solids with the same molds and give them a try. Heck, Im sure the solids will kill just fine too, just not as dramatic.

[jandbn]

I'm not a hunter but I have a friend who wants to use one of my handguns and go bowling for Bambi.
My boolit stash includes the Cast Performance 335 WLFN. If what you are saying is correct, it would be better for him to use my 454 to push them between 1300 and 1400 fps than it would to have them moving 2000 fps out of my 460 Encore. Is that correct?
If that's the case, I'd need to move back to the 250 SST J-word in the 460. I can easily send them at 2200 fps with decent accuracy. Being a muzzle loading bullet, it's made for those velocities.

I've been reading about the wide meplat doing damage beyond what would normally be expected. If you push them to fast will it set up a pressure wave in front of the bullet or something? What causes the lower amount of damage at high speed?

Maybe I should load up the 270 Thunderheads (.442" meplat) and push 'em to 1300 fps in the heavy Colt loads. I've thought about doing that for short range piggie work.

I have noticed that most of the high pressure ammo makers tend to cut the 454 off around 1500 fps. One of the gun writers made a comment about that being an effective upper limit for use on game despite the guns being capable of much more.

Enlighten this paper puncher if you could.

Veral Smith says to keep meplat and velocity "ratio" in a certain zone. His reference to this "ratio" is Displacement Velocity.

A site that may give you a 'different' idea of the Flat Nose terminal effects: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#flat-nosed

[44man]

Veral Smith says to keep meplat and velocity "ratio" in a certain zone. His reference to this "ratio" is Displacement Velocity.

A site that may give you a 'different' idea of the Flat Nose terminal effects: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#flat-nosed
Veral is correct and have piled up too many deer with a good necropsy to investigate damage.
Once you tip the balance, you NEED expansion.
Expansion works no matter what but you can tip the balance very quickly from loss to destruction. I look at cast the same as I would choose a bullet for the size of the animal when buying factory loads.
But now a "bomb" for the pig "bomb" sounds like fun! VARMINTS and how much pork can you eat? :lol:

[white eagle]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_155754ec16e0b3d05b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2700)

And these are the rejects!!! Even Gearnasher and Inkedbylee couldn't believe the size of these things!!
Trey
those are some dandy boolits
ya ought to try smokin miss piggy with one of these
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/slug1.jpg