Names of Cast Bullet Shapes ?

[DoctorBill]

I remember reading in Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge by Paul Matthews,
page 34 last paragraph, about Black Powder Cartridges, that the author spoke of
a Pope style cast bullet.

Can someone direct me to more information about various named Cast bullet shapes or designs ?

All I see on Google is the 'boat tail', 'Spitzer', etc. - Modern stuff.
http://mathscinotes.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/generalbulletshape.jpg

Pope Style, Round Nose....what else ? I would like to learn the jargon.

DoctorBill

[gandydancer]

Harry Pope was a barrel/Gunsmith/long range target shooter from Hartford Ct in the 1800's into the 1900's and was one of the best in the world He made many bullet molds of his on design and many mold makers used his designs and called them a Pope style. he was very fond of the 32/40---38/55 and many others. there is a great book on him called Harry Pope and his barrels. they just restored his home and shop in east Hartford a few years ago. GD

[Ed in North Texas]

Then there is also the "Loverin" style boolit. IIRC, H. Guy Loverin was a boolit/mould designer for Ideal (later Lyman). The Loverin boolits were designed, and achieved a reputation for, accuracy. They are easily recognized, having a short nose and many thin driving bands and grease grooves.

And the "Keith" style, developed by Elmer Keith. There are others which slip my mind.

Other designations have more to do with describing the shape of the boolit. "Boat Tail" becomes pretty obvious when you see some of the old wooden "speed boats" designed and built by folks like Gar Wood. The stern of the boat was narrowed to reduce turbulence and increase efficiency in the medium. Turned out it worked in air as well as water. "Spire Point" sort of alludes to a church spire, though the term may not be used much these days in describing churches. Lee describes the points of many of their boolits by noting the radius of the design (1R, 2R).

[DoctorBill]

It would be very educational and informative if we could associate a picture or diagram
with these various named designs and/or styles of Bullets of the past generations.

Many authors give the names, but neglect to show a visual representation of
those designer's bullets.

Pope, Loverin, Keith, Postell, I will keep adding the names as more are posted here.

As a point of General Education on this Thread, if anyone has diagrams
or photos of any of these different bullet designs or styles, please be so kind
as to include them in your posts.

I find the various shapes of the first bullet designs, prior to the modern copper jacketed
bullet, to be very interesting.
However, Google doesn't seem to be coughing up any links or pictures for me !

I want to use a ground down Ball End Mill to cut out an Aluminum Bullet Mould (mold)
to make my own Paper Patch Bullets.
Probably on a LEE mold of smaller diameter (inexpensive to do).

My concern is, what shape do I grind the tip to ?
There would be almost infinite different shapes to try....

I am not asking for a multitude of people's personal favorites or endless opinions
of what folks think I should do !

Just visual representations of all the olde traditional Cast bullet styles...to educate us all.

DoctorBill

PS - I found reference to this book via Google:
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Cast-Bullets-Charles-Lyman/dp/B000IBZ0DS
Look at the names of the authors !

[mdi]

I too think there should be a "stickie" with a link to a chart with the various cast bullet designs, and abbreviations (FRN, WC, LFN, WFN, etc.) not just names...

Here's a link to Lyman/Ideal molds w pics of bullets, but only identified by the mfg. number. http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

[montana_charlie]

It would be very educational and informative if we could associate a picture or diagram
with these various named designs and/or styles of Bullets of the past generations.
Since you started this by asking about the 'Pope style bullet', I plugged those three words into the search box for Google.

I got this ...
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/history-directions-for-handling-pope.html
... and it includes a picture.

Of course, Pope loaded his bullets through the muzzle and placed a charged case in the chamber behind it, so it's not a bullet design that lends itself to fixed ammunition.
But, hey, you asked ...

CM

[btroj]

Rnfp, wfn, LAN are at least descriptive terms. I can comprehend what they mean in general.
Luckily I know what a Keith, Thompson, or Loverin look like. Then there's the Gould HP for 45-70.

I don't see a need for a sticky, get a copy of the Lyman 3rd edition cast bullet handbook. They have a pretty good history of the various mould designers and styles.

Want real confusion? Go look at Lyman mould numbers, they tell you even less!

[303Guy]

There's the money boolit.

Check out this link;
http://www.corbins.com/design.htm
http://www.mountainmolds.com/helpDesign.htm

[MtGun44]

The Keith semiwadcutter boolit designs have a long nose with a moderately curved side and a relatively
large meplat. There is a full diameter driving band ahead of a deep, angled crimp groove and
a single large lube groove with a flat bottomed shape. The two driving bands below the crimp
groove and the top driving band are the same width. Keith designs never have a gas check and
are intended primarly to be used for revolvers. Later variants of Keith's designs put out by Lyman
vary tremendously from the original designs, some with extremely short front driving bands and many
with round cross section lube grooves. Keith was quite unhappy about these changes. Current
Lyman production molds are back to a very good agreement with Keith's original designs. Good
examples are Lyman 429421, 454423, 454424, 358429. Keiths were also typically slightly "heavy
for caliber", although today the "heavy for caliber" trend has been pushed FAR past what Elmer
envisioned, so they are not considered "heavy for caliber " today in most cases.

Thompson revolver boolits are superficially similar to Keiths - being semi-wadcutters, but all have
gas checks, smaller and unequal sized driving bands, round bottomed lube grooves and usually a
bit smaller meplat than a Keith. An example is a Lyman 429215.

Bill

[prs]

Well, I kin rigcognize a PRS style boolit real quick.

prs

[DoctorBill]

Here goes with some pictures and/or diagrams of bullets gleaned
from you contributors of information....

If anything is incorrect or you have better pictures, send me a PM and I will correct it.
Other olde original styles or designs - please inform me.

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Pope Style Bullet(s)

http://www.mynetimages.com/2c1a657d28.jpg http://www.mynetimages.com/97a0b50696.jpg

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The Keith Bullet

http://www.mynetimages.com/89c8f99348.jpg
Source: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46162

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The Loverin Bullet

http://www.mynetimages.com/f49c020f26.jpg
Source: http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/reloading-bench/808-lead-bullets-smokeless-rifle-cartridges.html#post6210

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The Whitworth Design Bullet

http://www.mynetimages.com/907d494b68.jpg
Source: http://www.researchpress.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1205360265

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The Postell Style

http://www.mynetimages.com/5d407902f2.jpg http://www.mynetimages.com/d310ce8335.jpg
Source : http://www.rustywood.ca/reload-rifle.html and http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1442440&postcount=8

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More to come as I get the graphics....Come back to this post.


DoctorBill

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I really would like to see this stickied once it's done.

[DoctorBill]

I ran out of bullet styles and designs....and nobody has come up with any more !

Come on fellows. Need more !

I can put up the modern shapes, too - but I need to know those names , also.

I am not a fountain of knowledge - just of natural gas. Mr Windy.

DoctorBill

[gandydancer]

I ran out of bullet styles and designs....and nobody has come up with any more !

Come on fellows. Need more !

I can put up the modern shapes, too - but I need to know those names , also.

I am not a fountain of knowledge - just of natural gas. Mr Windy.

DoctorBill
How about Carl F. Hudson designer of lyman bullet #429303 he called it the "Hi-Velo-Pen" (around 1952)
(for High Velocity & Penetration). 205 grain cast bullet lyman # 2 alloy that would go through 3/16" steel plate looks to be almost the same as NOE # 434/199 gr SP the lyman was also a semi wad cutter bullet.
I have the load data and other information on it if you need it. G.D.