No more &@*% sabots!

[subsonic]

I've been shooting my Encore for about 5 years with 777 and various sabot'd ammo. I have definitely noticed a trend and I'm done with sabots!

Every saboted bullet or boolit took a different amount of pressure to seat! I clean between shots so I know it's not just fouling changing things. Today I shot the last 3 hornady SST "Low Drag" 250 gr from last year's pack and opened a pack that I just purchased. I was also trying blackhorn 209 this year which calls for regular shotgun 209 primers instead of low powered "muzzleloader" 209s. While these never shot great they would usually group under 2" at 100 when loaded over 100gr and are available loacally for around $12 / 20. The first one I loaded was very easy to seat against the powder and hit 5" lower than the 3 from the old pack. It also sounded and felt weaker. I loaded another one and it and the next one landed on the ground in front of the 25yd berms, with a flame coming out of the barrel after them. I mic'ed the remainin 17 bullets and they ALL were .4517"! But the sabots were all over the place, varyin by as much as .001" on a petal. I took the pack back and got my money back. I have a few 200gr T/C sabots left that I will have to use to hunt with, since the season starts very soon and they have worked OK in the past, shooting similar groups. BUT I will not be using any more sabots after that!

What cast shoots good in the Encore 1:28 guns without a sabot? REAL 250, 320, or ?

[wgr]

maxie ball. are go to 90 grains of 2f black and shoot the sabots. get the sabots and bullets seperate. i use knight black sabots and .250 grain 45 cal. xtp bullets

[Crawdaddy]

Try using Harvester Crushed Rib sabots. Much more consistent.

[DODGEM250]

Are you using loose powder or them worthless pellets ?

My next question is, are you shooting 90-110 grains or are you trying to shoot 150 ?

[P.K.]

What cast shoots good in the Encore 1:28 guns without a sabot? REAL 250, 320, or ?

Another "convert" ;-) I reallllly like the 250 gr. over 70gr of FFFG. Soft recoiling and very accurate out of my Hunter 19. The REALS are a favorite because they scrape the bore while loading( use soft lead and a little tin to cast) and fouling is minimal. My Da and I put 5 or 6 lbs of them down range yesterday and they loaded as easily at shot #1 and #50 or so. :castmine:

[excess650]

I have an Omgea and won't shoot anything else (sabots and BH209). It seems to shoot about as well as I can hold it with most any combination that I stuff down the muzzle. TC Shockwaves, Hornady SSTs in TC, MMP, or Harvester sabots, Hornady XTPs or Speer Gold Dots in whatever green sabots (44cal). I've used 100gr BH209 with W209 primers almost exclusively. 2" at 100 yards would be one of the worst groups with the best being cloverleafs.

A friend with a pair of Omegas uses only Harvester sabots and gave me all of his TC and MMP sabots (couple hundred).

Another guy with a TC Triumph shoots pretty decent groups, again with BH209 and Shockwaves, and he's not a great shot.

Mike has an Encore and his wife an Omega, and he admits her Omega is the better shooter. He just switched to BH209 after trying Pyrodex and 777 pellets.

With BH209 the sabots must be a tight fit for good ignition. Western Powder even recommends magnum primers. BH209 cleans up with nitro solvent. You'll need a 1/8" drill bit to clean out your breech plug if you haven't done it.

[high standard 40]

I gave up on sabots a few years ago. I hated seating those things and I never found a suitably accurate load for my Knight Wolverine. I now use 777 and CVA Powerbelts. Great, repeatable accuracy and good performance on deer....much better than I ever got with any saboted bullets I had tried...and I tried a few.

[subsonic]

With BH209 the sabots must be a tight fit for good ignition. Western Powder even recommends magnum primers. BH209 cleans up with nitro solvent. You'll need a 1/8" drill bit to clean out your breech plug if you haven't done it.

And I'm sure that's exactly why I had that problem and a big source of my previous issues. All I can get around here are "low drag super glide easy load" sabots in packs, except for the 200gr I mentioned. I don't want to spend time and money developing products for Hornady. They should work out of the pack or tell me what to use or not to use as far as the BH 209. The box I returned was so easy to load, the weight of the ramrod could just about seat them and the sabots mic'd horribly inconsistently.

I don't want the extra sabot variable, especially if I'm going to have to buy sabots separately that may not work with the bullet or boolit I'm trying to use in the first place. The wrong length petal prevents good separation and accuracy is unpredictable.

For the guys above, I was shooting 110gr BH209 with regular Win209 shotgun primers when the primers were launching the bullets.

I found the 1/8" drill trick about the 2nd year in. It does not work on my new endeavor barrel though.

EDIT: It does work on my endeavor! It came from T/C with fouling so bad from them test firing that the bit wouldn't even start by hand! It's fixed now and we'll see if it improves things today.

[subsonic]

No plastic. A guy I work with fought the same seatin pressure issue with the powerbelts. Until they can make the plastic as consistent as they can make the bullets, i'm done.
I'm in no hurry to sort sabots or powerbelt skirts with a micrometer - and throw half away.

[subsonic]

Now if both of my barrels were tight and rough, these would probably work better, but there would still be the seating pressure variances that woul affect accuracy.

The last thing I want to do is smack a deer in the head with a sideways bullet moving about 100fps and then procede to set the woods on fire.

[RBak]

Last year I thought I would try some sabots in my .58 T/C Big Boar just to see what all the fuss is about....a fellow here on the forum sold me three boxes, shipped, at a price that I couldn't refuse so I thought why the heck not....these things are supposed to be GREAT!

Anyway, I was disappointed with the whole nine-yards, loading, shooting..when they did shoot, plus grouping and performance . It was all not worth the effort and the waste of a day spent at the range.
Typically I have always shot a RB / Patch and never felt the need for anything better, but I read all the hype, and I hear all the stories, and since I have the will power of a big old night crawler, I sometimes breakdown and try some of this stuff.

I'm not saying all this fluff about shooting sabots doesn't have merit somewhere, surely it does or the things would not be so popular.
But when I look around at the price of Sabots, and think back on my own really limited one time experience, I can't help but wonder what all the fuss is about....especially when about everyone I talk to is talking about the same failures.

A couple of years back Idaho Ron got me interested in Paper Patching for the muzzleloader, and that too is a sabot of sorts....but the total performance is ten fold of what I experienced with those ready made Hornady Sabots.

Just my opinion, which ain't worth very much.

Russ

[Terryrm1-03]

My son had MAJOR problems this year deer hunting, with his Austin Halleck 50 cal. He was using the Triple 7 pellets and traditions 200 gr XTP's.
One shot just went POP! I was in a stand 135 yds away. Of course a miss.
Then the biggest buck we've seen on the property, 125 yds it did go off but he missed.
Have not been happy with sabots myself, kept thinking it was our shooting.
He's going back to shotgun. I'm searching for a new load w/out sabots.
I did not know about the pellets not shooting consistant! Hard way to learn when in the timber, and counting on the gun.
Terry

[Terryrm1-03]

PS what is the 1/8" drill bit used on?????
Thanks Terry

[rockrat]

I use the Powerbelts, but my stash is the old ones called Black Belt, before the company was bought out. Consistent loading and groups very well in my 700ml

We can't use sabots here, but the powerbelts are OK.

[gon2shoot]

Whats a sabot? :castmine:

[subsonic]

The 1/8" bit cleans the rear section of the fire channel where the primer sits. The drill should go in pretty far. If not, it's due to all the crud.

The sabots can work VERY well, but they also can not work at all, and just are not consistent enough for me.

Don't think I haven't given them a chance. My stepson and I WORE OUT the first barrel and sent it back to T/C. They agreed and sent us the endeavor barrel gratis as a replacement.

[subsonic]

The sabot/ projectile combo has to be pretty tight, or the primer just shoves the whole mess forward and you get varrying degrees of poor ignition. Stronger primer, worse problem, hence the "special" primers, special .25acp breach plugs, etc.

This is what causes the "crud ring", flyers, low velocity, bloopers, and probably even more stuff. I would bet it has ringed barrels.

[subsonic]

Just found this:
http://namlhunt.blogspot.com/2011/07/tighten-up-sabot-bullet-fit-for-tighter.html

But how do you know what temp you will hunt in? How do you know which ones to wrap, if the sabots are all different and you can't feel it until they're already loaded?

[waksupi]

Ya know, a patched round ball and real black powder eliminates these problems.

Just sayin'.

[smilie=s:

[subsonic]

No, but patched roundballs have their own challenges, especially in a shallow 1:28 in-line.

About 3/4th of the shots that wore out the first barrel were patched roundballs.

[45r]

The black sabots shoot very well in my encore but the new easy load yellow sabots didn't shoot well in my knight and I don't think I'll try them in my encore since 1 inch groups with the black sabots with 300 grain SST's is good enough.It shoots powerbelts OK.I'm going back to black powder when my triple 7 and pyrodex runs out,maybe sooner.I think the subs don't work well after the first year of use.I always got good ignition and groups with black,wish I never tried the subs but black got hard to find.Guess I should order some online.I've found that you need to clean after every shot even with the subs so might as well use black.BK209 is too pricy to shoot alot for me.

[subsonic]

Pyrodex looses it's pop really easily. Just leaving the can open for a while in high humidity would make me suspicious of it. The 777 seems to stay fresh for well over a year once opened.

I think 777 is the powder for me, for now. The primers it likes are the weaker ones that are less likely to unseat the charge before it lights.

The more I mess with modern in-lines, the less advantages I see.

I think the T/C Northwest Explorer might be the best of both.

[10 ga]

There is great variability in batches of sabots and shooting them with BP or any of the subs except BH209 is a PITA. They should load reasonably tight in a clean bore. If you get the propper fit for a clean bore they are just about impossible to load second shots without swabbing. I suggest you go to "belted" bullets, they are available in weights from 225 to 444 gr. in 50 cal, they shoot good in all my inline BP MLs. In my hammer guns I use PRB or REAL bullets. $.02! 10 ga

[Nobade]

My paper patched cast boolits are all the same size, load with the weight of the ramrod, and shoot tiny little groups over charges of real black powder. Plus they are basically free if I don't count my time. (and I figure it's a hobby so time don't count) Never had any use for sabots or store bought bullets.

[45r]

A guy that uses blackhorn 209 swears by it but he says the Breech Plug has to have a 35 thou hole and be perfectly clean and not too long with a tight fitting sabot.Others swear at it saying it fizzled in the field and cost them a trophy.I read the reveiws on it on cabela's and it seems to be great or a flop.I wonder why some have good luck with it and some don't.I've got triple 7 to shoot very well off the bench and got several deer but I wonder about the cold wet weather changing the way it will shoot after a couple weeks since it soaks up moisture a lot.A friend says I should switch to blackhorn instead of BP since humidity doesn't effect it.He says I'd never use anything else if I tried it in my encore.

[frontier gander]

No BH209 does not need a .035" flash hole in order to work. What it needs is a good tight seal on the primer so all of the gasses get to the charge and set it off. Keep the flash channel cleaned and carbon free, use a hot primer and a snug projectile and its good to go. Ive even used it in a sidelock but used a 5 grain booster charge of jim shockeys gold to help get it lit up. Tried a mag spark 209 adapter and it worked until a huge design flaw showed itself and the adapter ripped in half.

[Swampman]

I've never had a problem with sabots or patched round balls in a 1:28 twist barrel. They both shoot great in my guns.

[45r]

No BH209 does not need a .035" flash hole in order to work. What it needs is a good tight seal on the primer so all of the gasses get to the charge and set it off. Keep the flash channel cleaned and carbon free, use a hot primer and a snug projectile and its good to go. Ive even used it in a sidelock but used a 5 grain booster charge of jim shockeys gold to help get it lit up. Tried a mag spark 209 adapter and it worked until a huge design flaw showed itself and the adapter ripped in half.

Thats good to know,I wouldn't want to drill out my encore breech plug.Checked out the frontier site,seems like the Blackhorn is working well for a lot of shooters.It would be nice not to clean every shot and not have to mess with the crud ring and hard breech plug removal.I've thought about a 209 conversion kit for my Knight lami thumbhole if I try blackhorn.Been using musket caps in it instead of # 11's since triple 7 and pyrodex is harder to light in the cold damp weather here.When I used my renegade and seneca with black powder and patched balls I shot the load off at night,wish I still had them.Thats too expensive with 300 grain sst's and mmp12 sabots.

[white eagle]

Sub
I have been using one of Tom's REAL boolits and getting fantastic accuracy in my 54 cal
I cast them out of 16/1and lube them with allox and then i add a touch of wad slick to keep them from sticking together
here is what the boolit looks like
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=55-360A-D.png,
its not a fluke or once in awhile thing it is something I have been doing all the times I use this combo
use a 80 gr charge of pyrodex to send it on its way
no game animal will stand a chance against it and am going to try it out on whitetails this coming week

[45r]

No BH209 does not need a .035" flash hole in order to work. What it needs is a good tight seal on the primer so all of the gasses get to the charge and set it off. Keep the flash channel cleaned and carbon free, use a hot primer and a snug projectile and its good to go. Ive even used it in a sidelock but used a 5 grain booster charge of jim shockeys gold to help get it lit up. Tried a mag spark 209 adapter and it worked until a huge design flaw showed itself and the adapter ripped in half.

After more reading on the frontier site about getting the 209 primer to seal with a crush fit to prevent hangfires with BH I wonder if it would be possible to back out the breech plug a little instead of backing out the firing pin bushing.I'll have to take a look at my encore to see if the bushing can be adjusted as easy as the CVA's.I don't think I have a lot of blowback using triple 7 and the encore breech plug has a recessed cup ahead of the flash channel so it should work well I think for ignition.I've learned a lot I didn't know about BH on the frontier site,very interesting.

[frontier gander]

With your encore you can shim your firing pin. www.bellmtcs.com

With the TC design however you really wont have any trouble with blackhorn209. Just keep your flash channel clear with an 1/8" drill bit and cut the carbon out every 10 shots and its perfectly fine.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

[rayzer]

This year I used blackhorn 209 for the first time. I was suprized at the accuracy, that I got with my T/C Pro Hunter. 90 grains seemed to be the magic number with my gun, and several of my friends guns. I have loaded and shot 20 times without cleaning, with blackhorn 209. NO CRUD RING. I just finished the deer hunt in this region, I had the same charge in the gun for 5 days. when I finally shot it, it was dead on. This is fantastic powder. Ya I know it is pricey. But all good things generally are.

[John Taylor]

I tried several of the "plastic" things in muzzle loaders many years back. I'm sure they must have improved on them a bit but I found a patched round ball with real black will do the job just fine. The last deer I shot was with a 52 caliber and a custom bullet of about 450 grain. The rifle was a custom job also, built on an old H&R shotgun action using a Sharps barrel and 209 primers. The load was 80 grains of powder .The boolet went in between the neck and shoulder and came out on the last rib on the other side and was still going. That's way more penetration than is needed on a mule deer, I was looking for elk.
All this hype about higher velocity for flatter shooting, fancy inlines and such, I find as a waist of time. A round ball or slug with real black will do a good job if you do your part. I know it smells and it has to be cleaned but that's what it's all about for the primitive hunt. Stop trying to make a muzzle loader into a modern rifle. It just give the Gov. more reasons to pass more hunting laws. Idaho passed a law, said the percussion cap had to be exposed to the atmosphere after I had made over two dozen inline rifles. Had to convert many to take standard caps.

[45r]

I backed out the breech plug a little on my encore to see how much it took for the primer to be snug to the firing pin bushing.Without the ejecter in it was around half a turn,think I'll try it that way to see if it seals off any blowby.Should get a better hit on the primer also.I don't think half a turn will be any problem.Have read that most of the pressure isn't on the breech plug.Just called around for BH prices and it's 33 bucks and up.

[subsonic]

Thanks for all of the advice. I am sure some people with some guns can get great results sometimes with sabots and BH209. But I'm done with them.

I'm pretty well set on trying the 320gr LEE REAL after this season is over.

Will I be able to load them (without a sledgehammer) if I cast with air cooled WW? Would be about 11bnh with my alloy.

[DODGEM250]

My son had MAJOR problems this year deer hunting, with his Austin Halleck 50 cal. He was using the Triple 7 pellets and traditions 200 gr XTP's.
One shot just went POP! I was in a stand 135 yds away. Of course a miss.
Then the biggest buck we've seen on the property, 125 yds it did go off but he missed.
Have not been happy with sabots myself, kept thinking it was our shooting.
He's going back to shotgun. I'm searching for a new load w/out sabots.
I did not know about the pellets not shooting consistant! Hard way to learn when in the timber, and counting on the gun.
Terry


This the reason I use only loose powder. I have too many buddies who have gone back to powder after using pellets. Some of the pellets go POP and the ones that go off properly go BOOM. All of my loose powders go BOOM. Some guys try to stuff 3 pellets down the barrel and in most cases if they'd back off and use 2, they would find their accuracy more consistent regardless of what bullet / sabot combo they try.

[P.K.]

Thanks for all of the advice. I am sure some people with some guns can get great results sometimes with sabots and BH209. But I'm done with them.

I'm pretty well set on trying the 320gr LEE REAL after this season is over.

Will I be able to load them (without a sledgehammer) if I cast with air cooled WW? Would be about 11bnh with my alloy.

Those will be "crisp" on the edges but I don't see why not. You may need a little more "umph" to get her started but as soon as she's riding the grooves you should be good to go.

I use dead soft with a splash of tin. If you can get ahold of SWW those would be closer to dead soft than than clips.

[white eagle]

Will I be able to load them (without a sledgehammer) if I cast with air cooled WW? Would be about 11bnh with my alloy.


I tried casting reals out of ww and unless you are feeling Olympic
you may want to reconsider that
took all I had after the first shot and the first one was as hard as I ever care to do

[frontier gander]

i sure in heck wouldnt want to use WW with the REAL. I cast them myself. If you want to try some i can sell some to you. I have a good supply of the 320 and 250 REALs.

[subsonic]

Yes, loose is better, if only because it's cheaper and more versatile. I gave up on pellets pretty quickly. I was able to get about as good accuracy with 2 50gr pellets as the loose, but not as often. Meaning the *best* groups were about the same, but the average groups were not as good, and the cost was about double.

[John Taylor]

Thanks for all of the advice. I am sure some people with some guns can get great results sometimes with sabots and BH209. But I'm done with them.

I'm pretty well set on trying the 320gr LEE REAL after this season is over.

Will I be able to load them (without a sledgehammer) if I cast with air cooled WW? Would be about 11bnh with my alloy.

use pure lead for the LEE REAL, they are design to bump up a bit, also they will shave a bit of lead when loading.

[Crawdaddy]

Whats a sabot? :castmine:
I do both. 463 gr cast .458 in a Harvester Crushed Rib sabot. Killed two mulies this year with them. Both pass throughs. I get very close to MOA accuracy with them.

The trick to getting these things to shoot well is to shoot a lot and find out what shoots best. I put close to 500 rounds through my ML this year before settling on a bullet, powder and charge weight. It paid off in the end. I'm a tad anal (yes its true) 500 rounds is a bit extreme and could have settled much sooner.

[Crawdaddy]

Thanks for all of the advice. I am sure some people with some guns can get great results sometimes with sabots and BH209. But I'm done with them.

I'm pretty well set on trying the 320gr LEE REAL after this season is over.

Will I be able to load them (without a sledgehammer) if I cast with air cooled WW? Would be about 11bnh with my alloy.


when I was playing with these over the summer they practicaly slid down down the barrel using only the weight of the ramrod. Accuracy was marginal out of a traditions vortek. 3 inch groups at a hundred yards as best I recall.

[lesharris]

I was very disapointed with sabots,and I have tried most brands and weights.
My Knight long range hunter and my NEF huntsman would shoot shotgun groups at best with the sabots and Pyrodex,American Select, Jim Shokeys Gold,and other subs as well. Tried pellets and granular.
Real Black powder grade 2F would settle the groups alot,but thr real solution for me was Blackhorn 209.
With almost any sabots both rifles and my T/C Omega now shoot constantly within 1 inch at 50 yards
Blackhorn 209 is expensive at $32 per 10 oz. container,but the results were wort it to me.
By the way Blackhorn cleans up with Hoppes or any regular gun solvent usually 3 patches finished.
Also no crud ring like Triple Seven,no patching or cleaning between shots and loading easier on each shot.

[725]

I'm a maxi-ball convert for my in-liners. Just like the lead. When I shot them with sabots, the best I did was with T/C shock waves, 777, and a 209 ML primer. Cleaning was best done with Ed's Red (the acetone eats the plastic out of the barrel). Following the manufacturer's. I never used lube. When I did, the fouling was terrible, accuracy was poor, and cleaning was a pain.

[mooman76]

Thanks for all of the advice. I am sure some people with some guns can get great results sometimes with sabots and BH209. But I'm done with them.

I'm pretty well set on trying the 320gr LEE REAL after this season is over.

Will I be able to load them (without a sledgehammer) if I cast with air cooled WW? Would be about 11bnh with my alloy.

I used straight WWs for awhile because that's all I had. Its doable but also depends on the gun and how tight they fit. My ball starter is a little wider than some which helped but my palm would get sore after loading awhile. The stickon WWs are softer. you can use them or mix 50/50 to soften the lead or even trade. Allot of people are looking for WWs and have straight lead to swap.

[P.K.]

I used straight WWs for awhile because that's all I had. Its doable but also depends on the gun and how tight they fit. My ball starter is a little wider than some which helped but my palm would get sore after loading awhile. The stickon WWs are softer. you can use them or mix 50/50 to soften the lead or even trade. Allot of people are looking for WWs and have straight lead to swap.

Pretty sure I mentioned that.....[smilie=b:

[Crawdaddy]

I was very disapointed with sabots,and I have tried most brands and weights.
My Knight long range hunter and my NEF huntsman would shoot shotgun groups at best with the sabots and Pyrodex,American Select, Jim Shokeys Gold,and other subs as well. Tried pellets and granular.
Real Black powder grade 2F would settle the groups alot,but thr real solution for me was Blackhorn 209.
With almost any sabots both rifles and my T/C Omega now shoot constantly within 1 inch at 50 yards
Blackhorn 209 is expensive at $32 per 10 oz. container,but the results were wort it to me.
By the way Blackhorn cleans up with Hoppes or any regular gun solvent usually 3 patches finished.
Also no crud ring like Triple Seven,no patching or cleaning between shots and loading easier on each shot.

Couldn't agree more. BH209 contributed to much better groups for me too. Well worth the money.

[45r]

you guys have talked me into trying BH,got some harvester CR sabots also.Wish the weather would clear up so I can see if it works.Won't miss swabbing between shots,stinky smell and easy clean up would be much liked.

[lesharris]

Once you try it you too will beleive.
I still use 2F blackpowder in my flintlocks.
Blackhorn is not recomended in flint or percussion ignitions.
Consistent,clean,easy loading,no foul smell shooting or cleanup,and cleanup easy as it is,does not have to be done right away.
Does not get better than that.
Les.

[Potsy]

I've shot a Knight Green Sabot and a 240 .44 XTP for years out of my Knight BK-92. This year, it didn't want to shoot.

Soooo, I reached in the range bag and pulled out some black sabots and some 270-SAA's. They were good for about 1.5" at a 100 yards over 100grn FF Goex and a musket cap.
I suspect that I've got some plastic fouling buildup (the lesson here is, pillow ticking doesn't build up in the bore). The .45's fit a little snugger than the .44's.

I killed my biggest deer ever with it a couple of weeks later. I'll post pics when I sit down and take the time (don't get tore up, it ain't that big).

After toting a Knight for knocking on 20 years, vs. my old CVA roundball gun, plus watching my buddies fight with various pellets, powders (black and smokeless), whatever kind of bullet with a plastic jacket (some with a plastic tip so they'll shoot flatter!!) I've pretty well decided that I like my old Knight, but if the barrel ever wears out, I'm getting it re-bored for .54 balls, just to I can have a muzzleloader with a decent scope setup.

I did get to see a Jim Shockey Gold Pellet fly, smoking, downrange, as one solid chunk this year out of a buddy's muzzleloader. I guess that was kinda cool. Of course, the bullet didn't hit anywhere near where it was supposed to; but that's okay; they reload faster so you can miss faster and you don't have to weigh that messy icky powder.

[Crawdaddy]

you guys have talked me into trying BH,got some harvester CR sabots also.Wish the weather would clear up so I can see if it works.Won't miss swabbing between shots,stinky smell and easy clean up would be much liked.

You are one step closer to becoming a believer. What caliber and weight bullet? If you are shooting long heavy bullets the extra long CR sabot is reccmended.

Would love to hear your results. good luck.

[RBak]

Once you try it you too will beleive.
I still use 2F blackpowder in my flintlocks.
Blackhorn is not recomended in flint or percussion ignitions.
Consistent,clean,easy loading,no foul smell shooting or cleanup,and cleanup easy as it is,does not have to be done right away.
Does not get better than that.
Les.

With all those "pluses" it makes me wonder why you even mess with a muzzle loader in the first place.

Russ

[frontier gander]

With all those "pluses" it makes me wonder why you even mess with a muzzle loader in the first place.

Russ

Cuz when you can shoot a 3 shot group @100 yards like this with a $180 muzzy and a $50 scope, it makes the day a whole lot more enjoyable. [smilie=w:
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/CVA%20Gun%20Pics%20and%20Reviews/DSCN1534.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/CVA%20Gun%20Pics%20and%20Reviews/DSCN1547.jpg

[mooman76]

Pretty sure I mentioned that.....[smilie=b:

Well excuse the **** out of me for trying to help the guy out and overlooking your post!

Have a nice day!

[Potsy]

Great group Gander. Guessing from the link at the bottom that you shot that with this BH 209powder everyone's talking about?
Was about to make a comment on having much faith in a $50 scope, but considering that I'm pretty sure (haven't experimented since attempting to check the sight-in) a $300 Nikon Monarch puked on me this year, I'll keep my mouth shut.

[frontier gander]

yes that was with 100gr blackhorn209, cci 209m primers and the 250gr powerbelt aerolite. I just recently put a konuspro 3-10x44 scope on it. Going to do some trading today and wasn't giving up my best scope with that deal! LOL.

[P.K.]

Well excuse the **** out of me for trying to help the guy out and overlooking your post!

Have a nice day!

Excused, read the thread.;-)


Smart a$$ or PITA turned off, I had a bad day there, so call it even.

[NickSS]

I tried Sabots when they first came out in a 1 in 32 50 cal rifle. I had the same inconsistencies and inaccuracies talked about in this thread and I was using real BP. So I sold that rifle and went back to my old TC New Englander side lock using Maxi balls for elk and pached RB for deer and never looked back. A Maxi Ball and 90 gr of FFG or a patched RB over 80 gr of FFG has worked for me with total satisfaction until I stopped hunting a few years ago due to age and infirmaty. I got my animals every year and they all died guickly so I can not see all the hype about modern ML and all the various fake powders available today.

[lead_her_fly]

Well, completely new to the whole muzzy thing. I did get an Encore from Gander Mountain, and it is the one that you can replace barrels on, for just a tad over $400. Being a caster, I sure wanted to shoot lead boolits in it but, also have heard of the great accuracy potential of saboted rounds. I got this thing too close to deer season to really work up loads and such but, I did buy the T/C Super Glide sabots and bullets, several bags of sabots (Traditions & Hornady) and some Hornady FTX .452" bullets that I got to try in a Puma Levergun in 45 Colt.
I also got a bunch of the other sabots for use with .430" bullets, since I have a bunch of Hornady 240gr XTPs as well as several Miha moulds to cast from.


I am using pellets for now, 777, 4 -50/30gr (because they were on sale) and the 45-270SAA with the round HP. I started out with the Super Glide and was 2" high @ 50 yards and 12 clicks left. Got to the center vertically but kept the 2" high just for drop to 100 yards. Ran the load over the chronograph and had a kind of low velocity, in my opinion, @ 1550fps.

What amazed me most was when I moved out to the 100 yard mark. I hadn't set up my own target but someone was kind enough to have put 6 or 7 clay pigeons on the berm just for me to try. I forgot to count exactly how many were there to start with but, after the smoke cleared, I thought I had one less. Before shooting again, I took an accurate accounting and by now, there was another shooter on the range. I asked him to watch.

I touched the smoke pole off again and long before I could see, he was yelling that I had gotten a pigeon, clay that is!

Swabbing after the first few shots and then just loading, fouling and all, and I could repeat that as much as I wanted, well, at least until the clays were gone! ;)

Start to finish was maybe 30 rounds mostly all with the Hornady black sabots and whatever bullet or boolit I put in there. Got the wife a stainless steel Endeavor and going to sight it in tonight. Not sure just what load I will give her. We will tell tonight.

Seems that the sabots are working okay for now. Oh, this was all touched off with Remington muzzy 209 primers.

I did notice two things: The Hornady sabots are harder to load & @ 50 yards, the shots came down to POA/POI and held there even out to 100 yards.

At any rate, I think I like the option of the sabots. I can shoot any boolit I already cast with them and can get acceptable hunting accuracy doing so. To me, that is a win/win. Imagine a boolit from a Miha 200gr Cramer 45 caliber mould. If that shoots accurate with these sabots, that is going to be one flat shooting round!

Will have to do some playing around after deer season though! :D

[44man]

I've been shooting my Encore for about 5 years with 777 and various sabot'd ammo. I have definitely noticed a trend and I'm done with sabots!

Every saboted bullet or boolit took a different amount of pressure to seat! I clean between shots so I know it's not just fouling changing things. Today I shot the last 3 hornady SST "Low Drag" 250 gr from last year's pack and opened a pack that I just purchased. I was also trying blackhorn 209 this year which calls for regular shotgun 209 primers instead of low powered "muzzleloader" 209s. While these never shot great they would usually group under 2" at 100 when loaded over 100gr and are available loacally for around $12 / 20. The first one I loaded was very easy to seat against the powder and hit 5" lower than the 3 from the old pack. It also sounded and felt weaker. I loaded another one and it and the next one landed on the ground in front of the 25yd berms, with a flame coming out of the barrel after them. I mic'ed the remainin 17 bullets and they ALL were .4517"! But the sabots were all over the place, varyin by as much as .001" on a petal. I took the pack back and got my money back. I have a few 200gr T/C sabots left that I will have to use to hunt with, since the season starts very soon and they have worked OK in the past, shooting similar groups. BUT I will not be using any more sabots after that!

What cast shoots good in the Encore 1:28 guns without a sabot? REAL 250, 320, or ?
I have not much to say! It is time for you to move to the very best. A RB rifle like a Lyman GPR.
I have built muzzle loaders all my life and have been a gunsmith mostly. After all the friends and customers come here to shoot the fast twist sabot junk, my suspicions have been confirmed, it will die out long before the RB gun. When I see guys run a ramrod against a tree to seat the next shot I have to ask WHY?
It costs almost nothing to shoot RB's but you need to spend your whole wallet to shoot the modern junk.
Some will have great accuracy I have to admit but fun is gone while trying everything and mortgaging your home.
I am not ANTI any gun you like but it seems it is 1000 times harder and more expensive with the new guns.

[Crawdaddy]

lead her fly:

You can definitley cast and use sabots. I use a Lee 450 grain mold that drops at 463 grains and a Harvester Crushed rib sabot. I get very close to MOA at 100 yards. Dropped two mules this year.

[lead_her_fly]

Craw, I will have to check that out, THANKS!


Took the wifey to the range tonight with her new Endeavor. I tell you all something, there is a reason to buy a Thompson Center Encore! That thing was simply amazing! I went through a whole box of their "Super Glide" bullets and got things on paper for my wife. This went a little different than when I sighted in my standard Encore muzzle loader. We are shooting open sights this year and are kind of pushed up against season so.... we are settling for some things we might not if we had a bit more time. ;)

At any rate, with 2 777 Magnum pellets, Hornady 4 petal sabot and the 250gr FTX, she was able to get a 1" group @ 50 yards. Much better than some shotguns with slugs and there have been a bunch of deer taken here in Indiana with those! ;)

This spring or summer, I am planning on putting the Nikon Omega scope on both of these and working with loose powder and see what we can do.

For mine, I used the same bullet/sabot combination but went up to 3 50gr 777 pellets. Gave me right at 2150fps from my 26" barrel and while they shot a bit high to start at, they too were "hunting" accurate and could be used successfully out to 100 yards quite easily. That will be an exceptionally long shot here in our state anyway.

One thing I did that I thought helped a bunch too was swabbed the barrel with a TC "seasoning" patch to remove the fowling and 2 dry patches after that. Honestly, I was really impressed with what we were getting.

On another note, there was another muzzle loader there tonight that was using Blackhorn powder. He had an Omega and said with 777 pellets he could not fully seat a bullet after the first shot. With the Blackhorn though, he said he could easily seat a second, third and fourth bullet without swabbing between each. He also said that the 100 yard accuracy wasn't there either but there was a swirling wind too so........................


At any rate, I and the wife are ready for deer on Saturday! I hope there are ready for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Crawdaddy]

lead her fly:

good luck to both of you. post pics.

[lead_her_fly]

Craw, call me Skip, please.

I'll tell you the thing tha surprised me the most though, the 2100fps + from my 26" barrel!
A 250gr bullet traveling at 2100fps is going to have some serious knock down power! Like over 2200ft/lbs. That ought to do it!

[Crawdaddy]

Craw, call me Skip, please.

I'll tell you the thing tha surprised me the most though, the 2100fps + from my 26" barrel!
A 250gr bullet traveling at 2100fps is going to have some serious knock down power! Like over 2200ft/lbs. That ought to do it!

Certainly, my bad. You won't be disappointed with it.

[45r]

Tried the BH209 yesterday and I'm a happy camper.Ragged hole groups at 50 yards 1 inch high dead center with the Harvester 45BR crushed rib sabots using 250 flex tips with 110 grains BH.Superglide sabots didn't work as good.I filed the extracter face on my encore a little so I could snug up the fed 209a primers with the Breech Plug backed out quarter turn.No blowback whatsoever,primers came out like new after each shot.Sabots went down easy shot after shot with no swabbing.Using my Kadooty tamping tool and spin jag everything went great.I was so happy not having to swab out the crud ring every shot.I tried 295 power belts in my Knight TH.My son likes them since they're easy to reload with.It was shooting very well also with 110 grains Triple 7 with musket caps but I have to clean between shoots with rubbing alcohol to keep the crud ring gone and the barrel dry.My son has commandeered the knight.It has a great trigger and it is very comfy to shoot.I'll have to use the Encore but that is very OK with me.I love how easy the BH209 works.I imagine I'm getting very good velocity using 110 grains with the 250 flex tips.

[Alan]

You are putting up w/ WAY more recoil than you need to for deer hunting, especially for 50 yards.

[rayzer]

My friends and I have found that 90 gr. of blackhorn 209 is the most accurate load out of our rifles. 90 gr. of blackhorn 209, and a 300 gr. .44 XTP and hornady green sabots, was giving us 1700fps. I will be experimenting with my NOE .458-350 RF. sized down to .451. I will be using the black hornady sabots.

[white eagle]

I have not much to say! It is time for you to move to the very best. A RB rifle like a Lyman GPR.
I have built muzzle loaders all my life and have been a gunsmith mostly. After all the friends and customers come here to shoot the fast twist sabot junk, my suspicions have been confirmed, it will die out long before the RB gun. When I see guys run a ramrod against a tree to seat the next shot I have to ask WHY?
It costs almost nothing to shoot RB's but you need to spend your whole wallet to shoot the modern junk.
Some will have great accuracy I have to admit but fun is gone while trying everything and mortgaging your home.
I am not ANTI any gun you like but it seems it is 1000 times harder and more expensive with the new guns.
I agree 44
and I also wonder why they all but quit making the 54 cal
whatever I know what works for me and never leaving plastic in my woods
or where I hunt

[45r]

You are putting up w/ WAY more recoil than you need to for deer hunting, especially for 50 yards.

It didn't seem as bad as my heavy 45-70 loads using 420GC boolits over H-322.I did get tapped lightly by my leupold on the last shot.I will shoot at 100 next time ,didn't have much time for first try.I have shot deer out to around a 150 yards for the most part and my previous load of 110 grains T-7 under 300 grain SST's worked very well at that range,deer never went far.I had to track a deer 3 miles once over a lot of private property and got reamed out a little by the land owner where I finlly got the very nice 9-pointer.He was impressed that I didn't give up on the deer and let me have it.Luckily there was some snow.The buck started to turn and run as I shot and the hit was marginal.The 240 XTP in a green sabot over 90 grains pyrodex always worked before.I've used as high a performing load as possible since and haven't had a deer go more than 100 yards after that,most DRT or less than 40 yards.I've become very fond of 45 cal boolits going as fast as I can handle so I can get out to 200 yards if needed.

[45r]

You are putting up w/ WAY more recoil than you need to for deer hunting, especially for 50 yards.

It didn't seem as bad as my heavy 45-70 loads using 420GC boolits over H-322.I did get tapped lightly by my leupold on the last shot.I will shoot at 100 next time ,didn't have much time for first try.I have shot deer out to around a 150 yards for the most part and my previous load of 110 grains T-7 under 300 grain SST's worked very well at that range,deer never went far.I had to track a deer 3 miles once over a lot of private property and got reamed out a little by the land owner where I finlly got the very nice 9-pointer.He was impressed that I didn't give up on the deer and let me have it.Luckily there was some snow.The buck started to turn and run as I shot and the hit was marginal.The 240 XTP in a green sabot over 90 grains pyrodex always worked before.I've used as high a performing load as possible since and haven't had a deer go more than 100 yards after that,most DRT or less than 40 yards.I've become very fond of 45 cal boolits going as fast as I can handle so I can get out to 200 yards if needed.

[subsonic]

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/e5887118.jpg

Another lovely sabot target from 100yds.
80gr BH209, CCI209, T/C mag express 240gr xtp packaged set. Dry patch on both sides between shots.

Bet you can guess which ones were hard seaters and which were easy.

[subsonic]

I will add that while that was not the best group I shot, it illustrates very clearly the issue I'm talking about and it was one of the groups I shot. It was not the wort or best. I did have a couple of 3 shot groups under 1.5". And I also had some flyers over 3" from them high or low. How do you know which one of those shots is in the barrel a you put the crosshairs on a deer?

[45r]

I will add that while that was not the best group I shot, it illustrates very clearly the issue I'm talking about and it was one of the groups I shot. It was not the wort or best. I did have a couple of 3 shot groups under 1.5". And I also had some flyers over 3" from them high or low. How do you know which one of those shots is in the barrel a you put the crosshairs on a deer?

I got the same results using the T/C 2 petal yellow super glide sabots,sometimes they shoot good groups and sometimes not.The 4 petal harvester crushed rib sabots worked very well.They sent me some red ones that measure 5 thou bigger and might shoot even better but the black ones shot very well for me and are very easy to load in my encore.They shoot as good as the mmp-12 sabot that are real tight fitting.If you can get the harvesters or the tight fitting mmp 4 petal sabots you'll probably have better results.I'm using the harvesters from now on,the crushed rib design seems to work very well in my encore.I might give the 260 or 300 PT scorpion gold packs a try,I've read they are very accurate and work well on game.I called their 800 number and they sent me 2 10 packs of sabots to try,they seem like nice people to buy from.

[frontier gander]

Not enough powder in my opinion. I'd try 100-110gr BH209.

What gun is this you are shooting anyway?

[Crawdaddy]

X2 on powder. I'm using 82 gr with a bullet twice that weight. Give harvester crushed rib sabots a try. I have had great luck with them. I use them in my Vortek rifle and pistol.

I could consistently put 5 shots inside that diamond at 100 yards

[lead_her_fly]

Here is what I did to minimize the possibility of having a problem with the load that is in the barrel and accuracy. I didn't go clean the barrel!

My accuracy was developed with a T-17 (I think that is the name of them) patch run down the barrel wrapped on a wire 45 caliber rifle brush followed by two dry patches. Since that is the way that the wife shot the 1" group with open sights at 50 yards, I feel pretty confident that the next one will be right there too.

I didn't go home and clean the rifle, no need to. 777 will not be caustic enough if kept in the cold, if brought into the house they can sweat and make a moist paste in the barrel and with black powder or Pyrodex, can pit a barrel. So, I left them in the unheated garage and will clean them like crazy the day after season.

At 100 yards with open sights and this method, 3 50gr 777 pellets, black Hornady 4 pedal sabots and the Hornady FTX bullet, I can easily get 3 shots inside that diamond @ 100 yards from my standard 209X50 barrel and primer system, easily!

One thing you need to remember when shooting these types of rifles: follow through. Same with my 44Mag barrel, my Marlin 1894 (44Mag), Puma 45Colt and other pistol caliber carbines. You have to have follow through and do your best to hold the barrel down when shooting paper. Do it naturally but hold it down you must. If you let it free recoil, even from sandbags or have a tendency to look downrange too soon, because the bullet spends so much time in the barrel (called barrel dwell time) anything you do after pulling the trigger seriously affects the bullet's impact.

That is the reason that the Marines use a sling on their forearm when qualifying with their high powered rifles. They are holding down the muzzle during recoil.

FWIW

[subsonic]

I have burned enough 777 to tell you you had better clean that rifle. Especially the bore near the breach plug.

Here is a challenge for anyone in this thread. Shoot 5 sabot shots on a target on one day at the range. Pin that target back upon another day and shoot 5 more and post that target pic. If someone can put all 10 under 1.5", I'll have some encouragement to keep at these things, but really, my own experiences have me convinced to pack it up and put it on GB.

[lesharris]

The reason flintlocks are used is in Penna. A flintlock is the only gun that can be used in the season after christmas.
I thinks it is called a Primitive season.

[subsonic]

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/7ceb934f.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/71bbeb3b.jpg

Here's a couple more groups. The "200" one is 200gr .40 cal shockwaves and the "250" is from the original "old" box of Hornady 250SST low drags (the box previous to the one I returned at the begining of the thread). Both over 100gr of BH209 with a standard Win209 primer.

The high shots were both very obvious with more recoil and more of a crack to them. Both were harder to load than the rest.

[waksupi]

I didn't go home and clean the rifle, no need to. 777 will not be caustic enough if kept in the cold, if brought into the house they can sweat and make a moist paste in the barrel and with black powder or Pyrodex, can pit a barrel. So, I left them in the unheated garage and will clean them like crazy the day after season.



FWIW


Let us know how that works out for you.

[subsonic]

Let us know how that works out for you.

:p:drinks: