Rifle -vs- Handgun Bullet Molds

[Tar Heel]

Having cast and loaded thousands of handgun bullets (straight wall or tapered cases) I am now embarking on rifle bullets for bottleneck cases. A quick review of the RCBS "Cast Bullet Manual #1" I bought new in 1987 revealed a statement that never applied with straight walled cases for my handguns. It states that a gas checked, lubricated bullet, should not be seated in a bottle necked case with any part of the bullet extending below the case neck (into the shoulder area or deeper). Pondering this statement makes sense in that the gas check could fall off, the bullet lube could contaminate the propellant, and I guess a few other reasons would come to mind if I thought about this harder.

This all means that the new bullet mold I purchased from RCBS (.375-250) probably won't work for the 375-JDJ with its short case neck. I will probably need a mold from NEI or someplace like that. I would appreciate commentary regarding seating gas checked cast boolits into bottle necked cases. I would also appreciate any feed back from anyone who has done this in a 375-JDJ.

[Rokkit Syinss]

The main risk, aside from those you mentioned, from what I remember is you risk flame cutting any lead exposed below the shoulder.

[chboats]

The other big difference between rifle and handgun boolits is boolit fit. If you get a mould for a boolit that has a long enough nose and short enough body to fit the JDJ case the nose fit will be critical. It should be exact bore to .002 over the bore to ride the rifling. If it is too large it will be difficult to chamber. Shooting cast in rifles adds a whole new set of variables


I would talk to Tom at Acurate Molds about a custom mould instead of NEI

Carl

[sqlbullet]

I would try it and see. Worst thing that will happen is you may have some leading. I see rounds below the neck quite often and they work fine.

[jhalcott]

Accuracy will NOT be as good as when the check is covered by the neck. Leading may or may not become a problem. Lube contamination could be a serious problem to consistent ignition. I HAVE used some bullets seated below the case neck with good results,and some NOT so good! Since the .375JDJ is a hunting round ,not a target round, your bullets will have to be softer than straight Linotype( unless you are looking for extreme penetration) a custom mold could be your best bet. I went thru this with the .358JDJ, also with a short neck.!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Seating gas checked bullets a bit below the neck of the case is permissible up to a point. The gas check can protrude "a bit" and maybe "a smidge more", but beyond that could lead to problems. Some of us have had to do that with Lyman 311284 in the M1 Garand in order to get a loaded clip seated. For me it worked without any probs, but there are many different guns, molds and situations. Try it and see is good advice as well as seeking advice from custom mold makers if you feel that there is any critical techno involved. LLS

[Sonnypie]

OK. I love it when somebody sez absolutely this, or that...

Here is some real world life:
Your rifle boolits when chambered push back into the case by the throat of the chamber.
(In this example: Lyman 311291 170 grain Lyman #2 alloy. Win Model 70, 30-06 Springfield chamber)
You cannot chamber the round without this set back. The rifle does it. And the GC is actually fully behind the neck of the case.
Yet, it is one of the more accurate cast boolit designs. :idea:

My 120g boolits are of course too short for this fact to occur.

Kind of blows the BS out into the garden where it belongs.... ;)

(I would have shown photographic proof, but Grandma has the cameras. :x )

[jhalcott]

HMMM! Sonny , HOW do you remove a LOADED round from the chamber of YOUR gun? Does the bullet pull from the case? MY 311 291 mold drops bullets with a smaller nose diameter than the hole in my Rem 700 or my Browning Medalion. The driving bands are a bit larger than the RIFLING/groove diameter. Yes ,they are quite accurate. I don't seat them so the checks are below the neck. My 311466 and 311467 molds seated in .308 CASES are a different story though. They MUST be seated deeper than the neck length or they are crush fit half their length. The 311466 in the 30-30 contender is very accurate seated to the bottom of the neck and correct loads used.

[Tar Heel]

Whew.....I just kept quiet.....Thanks for taking a hit for the team jhalcott.

[MtGun44]

No absolutes in this game beyond needing good fit to work well. I don't have much of
an opinion on this one, have heard the tale for decades, never worried about it any,
seems like I never noticed any big diff, but never really ran a specific test. So not
too sure.

Bill

[plainsman456]

I have never really noticed when the checks are below the necks.I have been shooting the 303,308,300 SAV,7mm and the 8mm.

[Bret4207]

The main risk, aside from those you mentioned, from what I remember is you risk flame cutting any lead exposed below the shoulder.

Can I ask where you got the idea that "flame cutting" can occur within a cartridge case or barrel?

[Ed in North Texas]

No absolutes in this game beyond needing good fit to work well. I don't have much of
an opinion on this one, have heard the tale for decades, never worried about it any,
seems like I never noticed any big diff, but never really ran a specific test. So not
too sure.

Bill

I'm with Bill.

[pdawg_shooter]

OR...you could paper patch them. No check needed, dont matter how far into the case you seat the bullet. Jacketed velocity and accuracy. Whats not to like?

[white eagle]

The main risk, aside from those you mentioned, from what I remember is you risk flame cutting any lead exposed below the shoulder.
then I would suspect that means no shooting p/b in pistols

[Larry Gibson]

There are some absolutes, but there are many more variables and this subject is one of them. If crimp on GCs are used and applied correctly they won't fall off. If a dacron filler (or other filler) is used there won't be powder contamination from the lube. Many hard wax lubes won't contaminate the powder either. Depending on the powder used, psi of the load, alloy used, how ell the bullet fits the throat, etc. there may or may not be gas cutting or riveting of the base of the bullet before it enters the throat. Also the loss of accuracy may not be discernable due to the rifles accuracy potential, the shooters ability or shooting style or expected accuracy criteria.

As I said, a lot of it "depends". However, I have gotten "bit" so to speak, enough times in the past by seating cast bullets to deeply. Mostly this was a loss of accuracy. Thus I've made it a habit not to seat cast bullets with the base below the shoulder If PB'd or the top of the GC below the base neck if GC'd. Then if inaccuracy occurs I know what does not cause it. Many times this means selecting another bullet design but over the years I've learned which designs will work with which cartridges of various neck lengths and in chambers with short, medium or long throats.

Photo, bullet on the right, shows the adverse effects on a bullet seated too deep. Left bullet is with GC seated to base of neck, same load same rifle, etc.

Larry Gibson

[EDK]

I'm getting started with cast in an M1A...I've read and re-read Bruce B's excellent sticky. My first new mould is a LEE CTL 312 160 2R. I tried 311041 and had some issues with feeding/fully chambering....I'm paranoid about a slam fire or firing out of battery! The LEE is some better, but I see ACCURATE 31-175 R in the near future...possibly modified for a slightly shorter front band.

I'd appreciate any input. I have a SQUAD SCOUT with a 7000 series AIMPOINT; my first center fire with optics in 30 years. BUT my long term interest is still cowboy action shooting with the VAQUEROS and MARLIN Cowboy rifles.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Bullet Caster]

So how far do you seat a cast boolit with a GC for an M1 Garand? Thanks. BC

[mpmarty]

Not owning any self loading rifles other than my 7.62 Nato AK I can't say what the correct seating depth is for a Garand or M1A. I do seat my 170gr LEE 30cal boolits below the neck by a good quarter of an inch and my Savage 308 does just fine with them. I do not believe there is such a thing as gas cutting in a properly fitted boolit in a rifle chamber. Lead is too hard to heat up in such a short time. I quit using gas checks long ago.

[mroliver77]

This is why "bore riders" were invented. They allow the boolit to be loaded out into the barrel farther. It is a good idea to have a .300 or .301 sizer for a Lyman/RCBS type sizer to custom size bore riding noses. In lieu of this you need a large selection of molds or custom moulds for each gun. This is what Ranch Dog has done with his boolits. He designed them to fit the chamber/throat of a "typical" Marlin rifle.

Sonny Pie,
The 291 does not set the boolit back in my military 06 guns. While certain loading regimes rely on the boolit to be forced back some, the typical situation is to load the boolit out to where it just lightly touches or engraves the rifling. If this results in the gas check being seated inside the case a different boolit or custom nose sizing is needed. This is assuming one does not want the check inside the case. There are many that believe it does no harm. I try to keep mine loaded with check in neck.
J

[Tar Heel]

I think Larry Gibson's photo in #16 speaks volumes. Thanks Larry.

[quilbilly]

Whatever the reason for the reduction in accuracy if the gas check intrudes into the combustion space, the accuracy of every one of the bottleneck cases I reload with GC boolits has been dramatically improved when the GC is still inside the neck.

[Tar Heel]

The other big difference between rifle and handgun boolits is boolit fit. If you get a mould for a boolit that has a long enough nose and short enough body to fit the JDJ case the nose fit will be critical. It should be exact bore to .002 over the bore to ride the rifling. If it is too large it will be difficult to chamber. Shooting cast in rifles adds a whole new set of variables


I would talk to Tom at Acurate Molds about a custom mould instead of NEI

Carl

We have been exchanging emails. Thanks for the tip. I let him know you sent me.

[Tar Heel]

Whatever the reason for the reduction in accuracy if the gas check intrudes into the combustion space, the accuracy of every one of the bottleneck cases I reload with GC boolits has been dramatically improved when the GC is still inside the neck.

Everything I read about this seems to agree. I'll find a cast boolit mold that contains the GC and bullet base within the neck.

[Tar Heel]

So....am I a brass, aluminum or iron Boolit Mold?

[Maven]

I've got to disagree with both quillbilly and Tar Heel about seating GC'd CB's below the case neck...when using crimp on GC's. First, I had 2 K-31's (no throat to speak of) and shot GC'd CB's as light as 113gr. (Lee "soupcan") up to Lyman #311644 (195gr.) and Saeco #301 (195gr.). With the exception of the 113gr. Lee CB, all of the CB's I used, including Ly. #'s 311291 and -466 required seating BELOW the neck-shoulder junction or the bolt would not close (go into battery) and the rifle wouldn't fire. I never had a problem with accuracy because of this. Second, Jim Carmichael in an article in "Handloader" tested this hypothesis with the short necked .243Win. and Ly. #245496, an 85gr. Loverin design. He shot groups with that CB seated long, ~2.61" and short, @ 2.29". Guess what? He found NO difference in accuracy. (Keep in mind he was a champion bench rest shooter as well.) After reading his article, I replicated his test exactly with my .243Win. and found no difference in accuracy, but a 100fps increase in velocity.

[Tar Heel]

I've got to disagree with both quillbilly and Tar Heel about seating GC'd CB's below the case neck...when using crimp on GC's. First, I had 2 K-31's (no throat to speak of) and shot GC'd CB's as light as 113gr. (Lee "soupcan") up to Lyman #311644 (195gr.) and Saeco #301 (195gr.). With the exception of the 113gr. Lee CB, all of the CB's I used, including Ly. #'s 311291 and -466 required seating BELOW the neck-shoulder junction or the bolt would not close (go into battery) and the rifle wouldn't fire. I never had a problem with accuracy because of this. Second, Jim Carmichael in an article in "Handloader" tested this hypothesis with the short necked .243Win. and Ly. #245496, an 85gr. Loverin design. He shot groups with that CB seated long, ~2.61" and short, @ 2.29". Guess what? He found NO difference in accuracy. (Keep in mind he was a champion bench rest shooter as well.) After reading his article, I replicated his test exactly with my .243Win. and found no difference in accuracy, but a 100fps increase in velocity.

Thanks for the contribution Maven. That's the kind of dialog I'm looking for...

[chboats]

Tar Heel - I have two of Tom's brass moulds and love them. The aluminum is lighter and easier to handle. Iron is probably the most durable. With care, any of them will give you good service.

The RCBS 375 250 will have to be seated with the GC very deep in the JDJ case unless you have a long throat.

Carl

[bearcove]

Can you seat the boolit out so the check is at base of neck and chamber a round. If it is a single shot it may have enough throat. If so just lube the grooves covered by the neck.

[Blammer]

This is how deep I seat my 311284 in my 30-06.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN6281crop.jpg

This is the 100 yd accuracy I get out of it.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/311284.jpg

I also have to seat my 35 whelen deeper with that 280gr 358009. So far I got no complaints with that either.

[Tar Heel]

Tar Heel - I have two of Tom's brass moulds and love them. The aluminum is lighter and easier to handle. Iron is probably the most durable. With care, any of them will give you good service.

The RCBS 375 250 will have to be seated with the GC very deep in the JDJ case unless you have a long throat.

Carl

I just ordered an aluminum mold from him and will possibly order another in the near future. I can see why he gets rave reviews on this site. He is a patient man and responds to ridiculous questions on email with grace.

Will try the 38-265D in the 375-JDJ and experiment with seating depth based on a previous post. Should be fun. The 42-310B bullet looks like an awesome bullet for the 411-JDJ. I have a query out to Tom regarding that bullet too.

[Tar Heel]

This is how deep I seat my 311284 in my 30-06.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN6281crop.jpg

This is the 100 yd accuracy I get out of it.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/311284.jpg

I also have to seat my 35 whelen deeper with that 280gr 358009. So far I got no complaints with that either.

Thanks for the input Blammer. The 375-JDJ has a real short neck....actually it's .375 too. The chamber has a tight, short throat as well. I'll just have to play with cast bullets for this one. It was really designed for the Hornady 270gr Spire Point.

[Tar Heel]

Can you seat the boolit out so the check is at base of neck and chamber a round. If it is a single shot it may have enough throat. If so just lube the grooves covered by the neck.

Therein lies the issue Bearcove....a short neck with a very little freebore. Sounds like a Jarhead doesn't it? :lol:

[pdawg_shooter]

Therein lies the issue Bearcove....a short neck with a very little freebore. Sounds like a Jarhead doesn't it? :lol:

HEY! I resemble that remark!

[Tar Heel]

I listened. My mold from Accurate Molds arrived today. BTW it was ordered on 12/2 and received on 12/8. WOW!

Ordered the 376265D after some email discussion with Tom at Accurate Molds. Can't wait to get this heated up!

[Larry Gibson]

Some appear to expect a pat answer one way or the other on this subject. Go back and read my post (#16). There isn't a pat answer. If it works for you with your load and cast bullet so much the better. If it doesn't work then that's not so good. I still stand by my position; if you don't have to seat the cast bullet with the GC completely below the case neck then don't. Best to chose a cast bullet design that is compatable withe the cartridge's case neck and throat length.

Trying to make one work can work but it also can lead to a lot of frustration and unwarrented assumptions. I mention that because I've been there and done that several times before I learned........

Larry Gibson

[GaryN]

Wow, Tom makes some nice looking molds.

[jblee10]

Lyman gas checks were designed to fall off in flight. Hornady gas checks were designed as crimp on checks to be carried to the target. I have heard tails of Lyman checks staying in the bore. But I'll bet it was with really light loads. Anyway, I never see Lyman gas checks anymore. And I understand that even if you find Lyman branded checks anymore, they are made by Hornady.

[Tar Heel]

Some appear to expect a pat answer one way or the other on this subject. Go back and read my post (#16). There isn't a pat answer. If it works for you with your load and cast bullet so much the better. If it doesn't work then that's not so good. I still stand by my position; if you don't have to seat the cast bullet with the GC completely below the case neck then don't. Best to chose a cast bullet design that is compatable withe the cartridge's case neck and throat length.

Trying to make one work can work but it also can lead to a lot of frustration and unwarrented assumptions. I mention that because I've been there and done that several times before I learned........

Larry Gibson

Great summary Larry. As mentioned in Post 16, there are many variables involved with bullet selection. One not mentioned in this thread yet is rifling rate of twist. After reviewing all expected variables: bullet weight, rifling twist rates, barrel length, commentary regarding bullet seating depths in bottle necked cartridges, existing chamber dimensions, one simply has to make an educated guess or perhaps a SWAG and simply go for it. Perhaps I am destined to rediscover lessons learned but the enjoyment of relearning these lessons is well worth the journey. Heck...isn't that why we do it? :drinks:

[Bret4207]

Lyman gas checks were designed to fall off in flight. Hornady gas checks were designed as crimp on checks to be carried to the target. I have heard tails of Lyman checks staying in the bore. But I'll bet it was with really light loads. Anyway, I never see Lyman gas checks anymore. And I understand that even if you find Lyman branded checks anymore, they are made by Hornady.

I don't know that they were designed to fall off in flight. I've never seen anyone state that that was the intention when they were designed. I think it's more that some people noticed some of the checks fell off. I've used zillions of Lymans style checks and still have a lot of them I use. Some tend to fall off, others I find with the recovered boolit. It all depends on the exact situation. I have some moulds that drop boolits with GC shanks large enough the Lymans "snap" on and that the Hornadys need opening before they'll fit.

[jblee10]

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook third edition states on page 89 "It is true the Lyman check often seperates from the bullet after firing and, in fact, was designed to do so." But anyway, my point in this thread is that if the check is below the case neck there is more of a chance of an uncrimped gascheck falling off from handling.

[dverna]

On the surface, it would seem safer to keep the GC in the neck of the case. This might be a good thing for hunting rounds that are carried around a lot and not used for years.

I have had old (20-25 year) cast bullet pistol ammo that has been affected by 50/50 lube. Many "duds" in that lot of ammo.

So, what works in one man's application may not be the best for someone else. Larry made some good points. Not only are guns/bullets different but there are differences in how we employ them to consider as well.

Good Thread.

Don

[Tar Heel]

Well....here are the results of the 41-340J Mold from Accurate Molds. This is for the 411-JDJ.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=632&pictureid=4634

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/album.php?albumid=632&pictureid=4659

[chboats]

Those look like they should get the job done. Now if they will all jut go through the same hole.

Carl

[Tar Heel]

What I learned today:
Having loaded thousands of cast handgun bullets means you don’t know dork about loading cast rifle bullets. Straight walled or tapered handgun cases are much more forgiving than bottle-necked rifle cases with respect to case length, mouth flaring, taper crimp pressure and other even more subtle variables.
I write this humbled..... And more educated.

[Tar Heel]

Lesson 87: Get yourself a real good micrometer.

Lesson 88: Real long rifle bullets may not get sized evenly in your size die unless you ensure the upper portion of the bullet makes a good pass into the depths of the sizing die.