A 10 rnd match fired with my P58 Enfield

[Buckshot]

...............This is old, OLD news. Regretably the rather enviable position I was in ended in Dec 2007. I was in the rather unique position to be able to go to the range EVERY Tuesday, and added to that it was only 4.2 miles from my driveway!

http://www.fototime.com/D1179361870321A/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/3A1B23457391FEC/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/77C4C55BCF39E72/standard.jpg

Our range. Twenty four benches, and then a 60' long pistol line. The range had target lines for the benches at 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards. In addition I was blessed with being able to shoot every Tuesday with several other like minded guys. We all cast our boolits, we all enjoyed the same type of rifles (and pistols), obviously we all reloaded, and we all got along very well. For quite a few years we shot what one of the guys labeled "The Burrito Invitational".

About 2 miles up the street was a complete shopping center. A resturant there named Rosa Maria's made the best chili rellano burritos. At lunch time a couple of us would gather up the orders and the cash, then fly to Rosa Marias and pick up lunch and bring it back. Behind the line were several picnic tables where we'd eat, solve the world's problems, and generally BS. After lunch we'd conduct the Burrito Match.

The Match at first was 5 rounds at 50 yards and 5 rounds at 100 yards. This was all fired offhand over iron sights. After several years we condensed it to 10 rounds offhand, iron sights all shot at 50 yards. To add a bit of variety from week to week we might shoot handguns at 25 yds (offhand again) or handguns AND rifles, 22 RF rifles, or pistols or both. Once in awhile we'd shoot MLr's, but not too often as we had a couple guys who'd throw a fit as they abhored muzzle loaders :-) Before the match each of us would toss a dollar into the pot. The high scorer took the pot, and no 2nd place prize!

At the first ML shoot, I shot my Whitworth and won. Ditto the next few times I did the same. The Rooles Kommittee convened and banned that rifle from the BP match[smilie=s: A Rooles Kommittee member was anyone with a buck in the pot. Normally we were all fairly well matched and the winning shooter would change generally from week to week but no one could match that rifle, especially at 100 yards. So then I began to campaign my P58 Enfield in the MLing matches. By then we'd begun doing all our rifle shooting at 50 yards.

One of the last times we shot MLer's before the range closed I photographed a set of my targets.

http://www.fototime.com/CB625BF32C08C24/standard.jpg

1st 5 rounds, Burrito Match with muzzleloaders. P58 Enfield. 40grs Elephant 3Fg Lee Target Minie. 50 yards offhand, 48-1X. Normally we'd put all 10 shots on one target, but my first 5 rounds were so pretty I pulled it during a line breack and put up a fresh target. They were all moaning and groaning as I had to parade the target around8-)

http://www.fototime.com/971BFA91D333C06/standard.jpg

The last 5 rounds wasn't of the same pedigree as the previous, but it was good enough to net me a 91-2X, so I whipped'em for fair [smilie=1: Sad to say but due to a developer, the range was temporarily closed when he brought suit against the board of directors. As of now it's been closed 3 years and the club's appeal hasn't made it before a judge yet. It was all a bunch of BS, as he was going to have to build a sound wall on the side of his (projected) 22 acre development that faced the range.

During the time we enjoyed the Burrito Invitatonal, the number of folks who'd participate varied from a high of 11 to a low of 3. Generally there was a nucleous of 5 of us for the most part. It's kind of interesting how many people are intimidated by shooting offhand? The other thing is that in all the years we shot, only ONCE did we ever have a match for scoped rifles, and it was still cast lead. Two of the Burrito shooters, besides me are members here.

http://www.fototime.com/6B26600DAF5E4F4/standard.jpg

I managed to get a photo of the 2 heathens once, and here they are. On the right is GopherSlayer, and behind him is 9.3x62AL. Due to a couple guys passing away, and some other's moving (including 9.3x62AL) it eventually ended up just me, GopherSlayer and a guy who bought his cast lead. He's not a member of the board, but with the range closed it doesn't really matter.

...............Buckshot

[451 Pete]

That is a crying shame about your range being shut down. A club up in Michigan where I used to live had a similar problem but it ended with a happy ending. This was back in the 1990's when the semi rural area around the club was being developed and the same tactic of using " excessive noise " as an excuse to try and shut a range down was employed by a developer.

The club contacted the NRA for advice. They got the Sherriff Dept. to bring the same sound equipment they use to catch motorcycles and trucks for excessive noise violation's out to the club. What they found was that the range was making no more noise where the projected new houses were to be built than what they would be getting from the traffic on the local freeway. ( I am sure it also helped that a number of the club members were also some of the elected officials of the local community. This btw is a very good reason to invite those folks out for a fun shoot. ) I know you are in California so what was used here may not apply out there , but .....

BTW I also own a Whitworth and several other .451 rifles. ( that is why the .451 pete for a signature here ) Knowing these rifle's and what they can do you did have them a bit out classed. I take mine to a local small club here in Indiana just to screw around with some of the high powered folks at 100 yards. ( I try for minute of angle where as a lot of locals go for minute of deer from thier rifles. ) I always get the question mark looks and comments " I didn't know a muzzle loader could shoot like that! Cheap entertainment for me I guess.

Take care ..... Pete

[DIRT Farmer]

Yeh but I have seen you shoot Pete, I think you would take the challange of a very "minute" deer.

[Buckshot]

..............Here ya go 451 Pete:

http://www.fototime.com/7F892387129D594/standard.jpg

Whitworth. 530gr Swaged paper patched to .451". 85.0grs Elephant 2 Fg, lubed felt wad. Offhand at 100 yards. Yup, one got away from me. The 4 rounds = 2.65".

http://www.fototime.com/037950A91DF99C5/standard.jpg

Have a Lyman insert type front sight....................

http://www.fototime.com/DEE1C8394B6FFD0/standard.jpg

.....................and made an apurture plate for the rear sight.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

The 530gr HP's.

http://www.fototime.com/79E8B23CAB84AC7/standard.jpg

A Rigby clone I built from the kit Pecantonica River has. Maybe we oughta start a 45 cal long range match rifle thread ? :lol:

...................Buckshot

[451 Pete]

Sorry guy's, I was out of touch yesterday. Comcast decided to take black friday off to go shopping I guess.

Buckshot that is some very fine shooting. The Rigby and boolits look great also.
Hmmm... The idea of a .45 cal match rifle thread??? I would think it would be great idea except for the fact that unless they have seen these rifles shooting in the hands of a practiced marksman most folks would think we are making it up.

I know the military at Camp Atterbury Indiana still has not figured out how we can hit targets out to 1200 yds., but they know we can. One of my more memorial days at Atterbury happened after the shooting was over for the day as I was filling out the paperwork for the military in the Range Control BLD. A sargent working there had seen us shooting before. Another civilian came into the room. The sargent said " Larry you ought to try shooting against these guys. " Larry said " What were you shooting? " I said " Well we shot 800 and 900 yards today. " Larry said " How did you do? " I said " The 800 was won with a score of 97 out of a possible 100. " Larry said " We can do that. " and the sargent replied " Take the scopes off Larry, these guys are shooting muzzle loaders with iron sights. " Larry looked at me, shook his head and never saying a word, left the room. I asked the sargent " Who is he? " The sargent replied " He is the one that trains the Navy Seals in marksmanship. "

Take care .... Pete

[Buckshot]

..............Pete, I'm sure you're aware of David Mishall's excellent board dealing with these rifles: www.researchpress.co.uk. then click on the forum tab.

...............Buckshot

[451 Pete]

Buckshot,
Thanks, I have known David for a number of years. He is a great guy and is the source of a wealth of information about these rifles.
I was very fortunate in that my first trip to Friendship was back in 1997 when LRML there was just getting started. I was mentored by the late Bill Roberts and by Thomas Shiffer, who remains a close personal friend to this day. Back then there were only a handful of shooters trying to re-learn how to make these rifles shoot. Sadly, a lot of the old information on the loading and shooting of these fine rifles had been lost. When someone would do particularly well everyone would ask what they had done differently and this information was shared as common knowledge between the shooters to advance the learning curve of the entire group. Evenings there were spent discussing paper patching, different powders, loading and wiping technique's, lock tuneing, merits of one rifling style over another ect. ect. ect. ( There are times I wish that I had taken better notes. ) To say I learned a lot is an understatement.
At the first match at Oak Ridge none of us had ever shot out to 1000 yds. The 1000 was won with a score of a 78. At that time nobody ever thought it could ever get any better than that. Today a 78 will probably not get you into the top three places. The learning curve has advanced and the bar has been raised.

Enough about me. So how does that Rigby shoot?

Pete

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,
Thanks, I have known David for a number of years. He is a great guy and is the source of a wealth of information about these rifles.
I was very fortunate in that my first trip to Friendship was back in 1997 when LRML there was just getting started. I was mentored by the late Bill Roberts and by Thomas Shiffer, who remains a close personal friend to this day. Back then there were only a handful of shooters trying to re-learn how to make these rifles shoot. Sadly, a lot of the old information on the loading and shooting of these fine rifles had been lost. When someone would do particularly well everyone would ask what they had done differently and this information was shared as common knowledge between the shooters to advance the learning curve of the entire group. Evenings there were spent discussing paper patching, different powders, loading and wiping technique's, lock tuneing, merits of one rifling style over another ect. ect. ect. ( There are times I wish that I had taken better notes. ) To say I learned a lot is an understatement.
At the first match at Oak Ridge none of us had ever shot out to 1000 yds. The 1000 was won with a score of a 78. At that time nobody ever thought it could ever get any better than that. Today a 78 will probably not get you into the top three places. The learning curve has advanced and the bar has been raised.

Enough about me. So how does that Rigby shoot?

Pete

Pete,

I've never met David but I think I was one of the first members of his first forum iteration back about '97 - '98. Not too long after my aquiring the Whitworth in any regard. The Rigby does very well. It has a 34" Green Mountain barrel with an 18" twist. My real problem is in not having anyplace to shoot truely long range. My local range only went to 200 meters. Pala, down by San Diego goes to a 1000 yds I believe. I was able to shoot the Whitworth at 600 yards once at the range in Sierra Vista, AZ.

Had some dumfounded guys familiar with muzzle loading who thought I was nuts for attempting 600 yards :-) I'm sure they were thinking "Hawken & patched RB's" [smilie=l: After a few shots I did have one guy ask me if that rifle was a Whitworth. Don't know if you're familiar with the kit from Pecantonica River? It's not bad, but it's not what it could be. First of all they supply a L&R lock which has the sear carried on a bridle screw instead of it's own. Then the breech tang was way too short to put a tang sight on. Other then that, the stock was exceeding well routed, and a nice piece of straight grained walnut.

I'll post a few photo's.

http://www.fototime.com/643BCEA85446EA3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/419C86F5587546C/standard.jpg

The original tange was only about 2" long. I cut it off and welded on a longer one I made out of 3/16" thick steel.

http://www.fototime.com/252FAAEEFDECA72/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/103B7CD70CB7B7A/standard.jpg

I then took it off, and at first d&t'd 2 holes for a tang sight base, and now I don't recall why I didn't use a pre-made base. Had to have been some reason. I ended up welding a stud on the tang as you can see in the photo. I then made up the sight base block to fit, cut off the bottom of of a tang sight staff and welded the staff to the block. The tang stud has a groove in it for the spring loaded plunger in the base block to ride in. At the top is a dimple the plunger sits in. The staff will lay forward but won't flop further backwards.

http://www.fototime.com/BE135D6E73B7ADE/standard.jpg

The front sight is for the Swedish Ag42B semi auto rifle. I cut it's base off and filed in the flats to match the barrel. Didn't have a milling machine at the time:oops: It was then silver soldered on the barrel. While the tang sight has a bit of windage, the front sight does also. It also has 7 different height posts and hoods.

...................Buckshot

[Abert Rim]

Buckshot, mon frere, you're bringing back a lot of happy memories here. I sure did enjoy your Burrito Match reports, and miss them very much. Glad to know your Pecatonica Rigby is still alive and well!

Pete: Did you also know the late Joe Hepsworth? I bought a couple of rifles from Joe, and he was such a gentleman and a fine ambassador for LRML shooting. Also, are you the guy who makes platinum lined nipples?

[451 Pete]

Abert,
Yes, I knew Joe very well. I first met Joe when he showed up at Friendship. He dove into the sport head first and was one of the finest gentleman that I have ever met. Joe shot the NMLRA match's we hold at Camp Atterbury and talked me into extending the ranges and shooting out to 1200 yards. I saw Joe last in September at Atterbury just before the World Long Range MLAIC match at Camp Butner. The plans were in the works for holding this 1200 yd. match that following summer. Sadly Joe was diagnosed as being terminal and passed away about a month before this match was held. The 1200 yard match has become the "Joe Hepsworth Memorial Match" and has been held twice now in Joe"s honor.

The only source I know for platinum nipples now is Rick Weber in Tennessee. If you need contact info,. for Rick I will send it to you on a private message.

Take care ... Pete

[1Shirt]

A great posting. Good read! Lots of nostalga and great memories of what was, and won't be again I am afraid.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[451 Pete]

Buckshot,
I was wondering what you thought of the Rigby Kit from Pecatonica. I don't need another long range muzzle loader ( got four here ) but I aquired a new 34 inch long x 1 inch .45 cal. 1-18 twist GM barrel and a real nice half stock walnut blank ( crotch flame figure all the way through in the butt ). That barrel sitting there has been gnawing at me lately.

I was just thinking a couple of weeks ago ( much to the wifes dismay ) about this kit. I have a couple of long range sight sets also so that is not a problem either. Have Pecatonica carve my wood and buy the other kit parts ( minus the barrel ). I think I could put one together pretty cheap that way. I am going to have to do some thinking about that lock though.

I had Pecatonica carve a blank for a left hand Schuetzen ML a few years back. They do a good job with the wood. If I ever get the wife to sit still long enough to teach me how to post pics. I will show you that one. A gunmaker up in Indy put it together. Flame figured wood ( sister to the other stock blank I have here ) , german silver butt plate , trigger guard and escution's, case colored lock plate, hammer, trigger plate, breech plug and tang with a false muzzle and palm rest. .38 cal bullet barrel. I had the german silver lightly engraved. That rifle does attract attention.

Take care .... Pete

[Buckshot]

..............Abert Rim, I enjoyed making those posts :-) All good things must pass, and luckily even at the time I realized how blessed I was to be able to shoot so often which such a great group. It was a large and important part of my life. BTW, I still have that Ardessa small bore barrel I bought from you :-)

............451 Pete, I believe Pecantonica will substitute parts, IF they have them. Maybe even if you supply them? I had them install the buttplate before shipping the kit to me. They did a super job. Instead of the L&R lock I'd get the Davis 5 screw drip bar lock. The sear is carried on it's own trunnion, so the trigger pull can be made much more refined then the L&R lock allows. I know Track of The Wolf carrys break off breeches with tangs sufficiently long to fit tang sights. PR may have all that stuff now too? Neither of them have breeches with blow out plugs, so I had to install my own.

Regardless, it certainly makes a very appealing, svelte rifle that is basically a MLing 45-90 :-) Depending on the sights you have a match rifle or a really nice hunting rifle that will knock an Elk on his butt :-) So get your wife to take a deep breath, a few aspirins and sit down with ya so you can load photos! Speaking of that I don't know if you have kids or grandkids, or how much picture sharing you'd do but I keep most all my photos online at Foto Time: http://www.fototime.com/ For $29/year you get a TON of room and no stupid advertising to contend with. Been there 5 years myself and not a single glitch. Don't own stock in it, just a happy user.

..................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

You and G/S need to make a trip up my way. 100-600 yard bays, iron critters at every distance, good target frames too. Yer 1/3 the way there at Lytle Creek.

[451 Pete]

Buckshot,
I have a couple more thoughts on that lock. I know a wizard that still shows up at Friendship from time to time that has more than a few tricks up his sleeve when it comes to locks and tuning. I may give him a call in a few weeks. The Davis lock is a very good option and may be the way I will go but I think I will let this one simmer a bit on a back burner till after the holidays.

Pete

[scrapcan]

Thanks for the posts. I too cut my teeth on the forum reading the burrito match report. Enough on that topic.

Now on to the real meat. I long after a Rigby sporting rifle. I have been thinking I need to get into ML and just like the looks of the Rigby. Now has anyone built or does anyone shoot one of these with round ball? No need at this time for long range I just want to learn and to shoot Ml and shoot something that I like the looks of.

How about more info on the 38 bullet shooter? I have thought a barrel to shoot 379 bullets or patched of same would be interesting, just happen to have a few moulds for 38-55.

anyway just my shameless way of hijacking a great thread.

[RBak]

I too remember the continuing saga of the Burrito Match.
Buckshot and Deputy Al's friendly banter was always something to look forward to back then.

In fact, during that time, Deputy Al sent me my first ever .452 500gr mould free, no cost, just free!
I don't rightly recall why he couldn't use it at the time, but I wanted one for Paper Patching in my 45-70, and BINGO one showed up in the mail.

You guys from the Burrito Match have developed many friends in lowly places over the years.

Russ

[451 Pete]

manleyjt,
I will let Buckshot speak for the quality of the Rigby kit as I can only attest to the quality of the rough carving and inletting from Pecatonica. They do a good job.

I don't know of anyone who has built a Rigby sporting in a round ball. I don't know why it couldn't be done. The kit and stock as Pecatonica sells it does not have any provision for holding a ramrod so a rod hole would have to be drilled and thimbles installed, both of which I would think are doable. It would make an interesting rifle.

The Schuetzen in a .38 I have has a Green Mtn. bullet barrel in a 1-14 twist. The rifle is a custom in that all of the parts were gathered up at Friendship over the course of about a year or so. The groove dia. of this barrel is .378 and land dim. .370.
I have been paper patching a NEI mold that casts a .361 dia. PP boolit of 325 grain weight and so far have been using pure lead to cast with. Patched bullet diameter is .368 - .369.

My experiments are not 100% complete as I still have a few more things to try but the early reports are coming in very good. Testing off of the bench, the rifle has been shooting 5 shot groups at 50 yds. that can be covered with a #11 cap box tin. At 100 everything is staying to a little bit over double of that size of group. This being with iron sights and probably as good as I can hold. I have yet to try the rifle at 200 yds. to see if everything is holding up there.

This rifle has been a bit fussy to say the least. ( It also could be that I am bound and determined to get it to shoot paper patch ) It only likes the Swiss 3fg powder in light 35 - 40 grain loads. Heavy powder charges open up the group. It also wants one very wet and two dry patch's to clean between shots. ( A very clean bore. ) Powder is drop tubed into the bore then a heavy card wad ( tried a dry felt wad ... no good ) is placed between the powder and bullets base. It also seems to favor only a very light pressure on the loading rod to make its best groups... kind of push the bullet down to just " kiss " the powder. All loading and cleaning is done through a false muzzle. The false muzzle also pre- sizes the patched bullets just before they enter into the barrel.

Like I said, I still have a few things to try yet. 1.) a lubed felt wad, 2.) a different paper with just a touch of tin in the lead mix, 3.) RWS caps ( I have been using CCI ) 4.) A grease groove bullet which if I have to go to will be about 260 gr. wt. ( I have been trying to get the paper patch to work first. )
I am just now finishing up on about the first 300 or so rounds thru this barrel so as the paper laps the barrel the accuracy should also go up a bit. I noticed a marked improvement between 200 and 250 shots.
I don't know if this rifle has been better or worse than the Whitworth to figure out what it likes but it has been an interesting if not sometimes frustrating experiance so far. I guess you have to like to tinker and experiment a little to enjoy this. Either that or I'm a sadist. Ha! [smilie=b:

Take care ..... Pete

[scrapcan]

Pete,

I noticed sometime back that the track of the wolf rigby kit has provisions for ramrod. I would bet if one had time , money, and inclination that PR might work with you, but not having worked with them before I can not say for certain.

On your 38, sounds like it is a bit higher up the pole than I am at presently. I definitely do not want to try to learn with one like that.

[451 Pete]

manleyjt,
Checked Tracks on line catalog. There is a Rigby Sporting listed there with provision for a ram rod.

( * Make note to self, update Track of the Wolf catalog in library to something newer than year 2000! .....)

My old catalog didn't show this kit.

About that .38. I didn't mean to scare you away. I am just trying to tweek the rifle a bit more than most guys want to or are willing to do. The accuracy I have already obtained is good enough for most folks and better than I will ever need for offhand and my ability. But to me a big part of the fun is figuring out what works and what doesn't and if it doesn't then the why?

Take care ... Pete

[scrapcan]

Pete,

Thanks for the reassuring notes on the custom 38. I have read a bit more on the topic and have stored away for times when it will be appropriate.

[451 Pete]

manleyjt,
The period I have found most interesting ( both historicaly and muzzle loading wise) is from 1860, with the opening of the range's at Wimbledon in England , up until a little after 1900. This time frame is when the muzzle loader ( in my opinion ) reached its final stage of development and the cartridge rifle first came into it's own. Trying to re-create some of that periods shooting and scores holds a big fasination for me. ( If you don't have it, some time pick up a copy of The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Roberts. A great book. )
Take care ... Pete

[Abert Rim]

Pete: I'll second you on Ned Roberts' book. I don't know how many times I have read that one and "The Breech Loading Single Shot Rifle." Sure would admire to see some images of your schuetzen rifle.

Rick/Buckshot: I had forgotten about that Ardessa. Think I got it from Val Forgett ... either that or I'm getting old or somethin ...

[451 Pete]

Buckshot / Abert
Busy yesterday with board of directors meeting at Friendship. Left 5am didn't get home till 9 pm. A very long day, but also a very good one. More on that later. Got my wife to sit still a few minutes today and got a few pic's for you if I can get them on here right.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc17e979df1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2875)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc184b222ce.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2879)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc181a62a75.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2876)

Abert this is the .38 Schuetzen. Still trying to make everything work here alright so I will send a few more pics in a second post.

Pete

[451 Pete]

Buckshot / Abert,
Here is 3 more picks of the Schuetzen. This rifle represents a bit more than just a left handed Schuetzen to me. As I said in an earlier post all of the parts and a lot of the work came from the vendors and my friends at Friendship. So when I take this rifle out I am sort of visiting with some great folks.

Jerry Eder breeched the barrel.
Barrel purchased from Tip Curtis.
Front sight made by Mike Yazel.
Rear sight bought from Dixie Gun Works.
Stock wood bought from Dick Miller on the back porch of Gunmakers Hall.
Stock profile carving by Pecatonica.
German silver parts purchased from Jerry DeVaudreyil.
False muzzle work done by Fred Dewitt.
Triggers and lock R.E.Davis
Patent Breech by Track of the Wolf.
Final assembly and finishing work by Scott Latta.

These pics don't show it too well but the German silver is lightly engraved. I did not want a lot of things detracting from the figure of that piece of wood so I stayed away from a lot of carving, inlays and engraving that a lot of these rifles have. Kept it kind of simple.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc184b602f8.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2880)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc184b96233.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2881)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc181ad4aa2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2878)

Take care ..... Pete

[Southron Sanders]

The P-58 Naval Rifle with the Progressive Depth, 5 Land & Groove, 1 in 48" Twist is the best Minie Rifle ever made and also the most accurate.

Back in 1862 the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia did an extensive series of accuracy tests with all the Minie Rifles in use. Most Minie Rifles were about equal in accuracy out to 600 yards, but PAST 600 yards the P-58 and P-60 (both had identical barrels) British Minie Rifles were the most accurate.

The P-58's and the P-60's were issued exclusively (along with British made ammo) to ANV Sharpshooters and they took quite a toll on the enemy using accurate, long range rifle fire.

Unfortunately, of all the modern repros, only Parker-Hale duplicated the original Progressive Depth, 5 Land and Groove and 1 in 48 twist of the original Naval Rifles.

The Armi Sport P-58 uses a 1 in 48 twist but has three lands and grooves. The Euroarms P-58 uses a 1 in 60 twist.

Unfortunately, the P-H Naval Rifles, like most repro Enfields comes with lousy bedding. A friend of mine purchased a "mint" Parker-Hale P-58 Naval Rifle and was disappointed with its accuracy.

After I did a full length glass bedding job on his rifle, group size shrank to the point he tells me that at 50 yards "off the bench" the rifle will shoot s 5 shot group he can cover with his thumb!

[Abert Rim]

Pete: Your schuetzen rifle deserves a separate thread. It is just lovely! Sure would love to see a video of you shooting it.

[451 Pete]

Abert,
Thank you. I was very pleased how it turned out for a bunch of cobbled up parts.:grin:

As for my media abilities please remember,one step at a time. You have to keep in mind the skills set of an old man ( computor challenged ) here. It rained all day yesterday and I should have set up something for a bit more light added to these pictures. All I can say is that they did not look quite that dark on the camera pic. before they came here. You can still see what I ment about the figure in that piece of wood, especially if you zoom in.

Historicaly, the muzzle loading German Schuetzen ( like the ML long range English Target rifles ) is a part of another country's heritage. Although they were never a part of our U.S. history, these rifles evolved into their cartridge cousins in this country. Some of the shooting records set at Mt. Vernon and Walnut Hill were not broken until after WWII. In effect, these are the true grandfather's of our modern day rifles and to me that is what makes shooting them so much fun.

Pete :smile:

[Abert Rim]

Pete: The little gold rush town of Jacksonville, Oregon, is about 20 minutes from here. Many of the earliest setters circa 1851-1860, were Swiss. One of the first things they did after very sensibly opening a brewery was to establish a Schuetzverein, and I can assure you that rifles very much like yours, but in metric calibers were no doubt but to very liberal (and well lubricated) use in Southern Oregon prior to the Lincoln administration!

[451 Pete]

Abert,
Google Helmut Mohr and check out his web site. He is one of Europes premier gunmakers in Germany and his work will blow you away.

Take care .... Pete