Burdened

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am burdened today, I don't know why this bothers me so.
I am trying to type the details, but when I do and read them to myself,
it really doesn't make me look like much of a friend.

I just can't type it out...

A prayer I say on days like these,

Dear Lord, Maybe I'm not thankful enough...What is wrong with me that I can't forgive and forget an old debt that a friend owes me, especially when it's a pittance to what You have given me and continue to give to me everyday ?


Thank you my cast boolit friends,
for the listening ear I need this day of Thanksgiving.
Jon

[Rangefinder]

Jon,

I'm not sure of the details and wouldn't ask you to tell them since you haven't already. But in my experience, questioning your own standing on a matter shows humility in it. Having difficulty moving in a direction you would like to in your conscience by virtue of personal emotion not only shows it matters a great deal to you, but that you are indeed human. Be thankful for that alone--I've known my share who were blind in conviction while empty of heart, and you are not among them.

I do hope you are able to work things out.
Best wishes, and Happy Thanksgiving.

Jim

[No_1]

Jon,

Prayers are with you on this difficult day.

R.

[Olevern]

anything God expects us to forgive is small compared to what He has forgiven us and the cost to us small compared to the cost He paid.

That being said, my experience tells me that it isn't always easy, particularly when pride and self-righteousness gets in the way.

"Forgive us our debts, Lord, as we forgive our debtors"

[FISH4BUGS]

I am burdened today, I don't know why this bothers me so.
I am trying to type the details, but when I do and read them to myself,
it really doesn't make me look like much of a friend.

I just can't type it out...

A prayer I say on days like these,

Dear Lord, Maybe I'm not thankful enough...What is wrong with me that I can't forgive and forget an old debt that a friend owes me, especially when it's a pittance to what You have given me and continue to give to me everyday ?


Thank you my cast boolit friends,
for the listening ear I need this day of Thanksgiving.
Jon
Jon:
It is interesting how we deal with those that have wronged us. One does not necessarily have to forgive but one can certainly forget. Spending our limited emotional energies on anger or revenge only eats us up.
I too have had a former friend wrong me. We are talking thousands of dollars. This is a small town and I see this person all the time. I say nothing to this person and do nothing to this person.
Perhaps I am being an old heartless fool, but those that have wronged us should be shunned by us. I don't believe that it is place of the victim to forgive. It is the place of the victim to forget. Forgiving means acceptance of the action that led to the situation. Shunning them is the only way to move forward.
The perpetrator needs to come and seek our forgiveness. If they are truly serious and seek forgiveness, then they can be forgiven.
There is no room in our lives for those that are trying to harm us or have harmed us.
I know that may sound heartless and not being a good Christian, but it is what works for me. Just an alternate view. There is nothing wrong with forgetting but not forgiving. We should only surround ourselves in our lives with those that care for us, are nice to us, and will not harm us.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[firefly1957]

He must still be a fiend or it would not bother you I can not add to what was said above enjoy your Thanksgiving. I am sure things will work out for both of you as your friend probably has a issue with this too.

[fishhawk]

I "had" a friend that I was very close to for 25 years and for some unknown reason to me he quit coming around or even talking to me and the wife. Well i asked other friends of his and they just said that's just Charlie that's the way he is just leave him alone and when he's done he will be back. So that the way I went i didn't push or any thing. Well just a year ago now Charlie had a motorcycle accident with a deer and was killed instantly....I will never know what the problem was and never have to chance to talk to him again......

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I will pray for JonB. Mike in Peru

[Light attack]

Jon,
Prayers also with you today. I have found that what I can't do, the Lord can. I pray that you can give your problems to the Lord and that He will give you the peace that He promises.

Light Attack

[plmitch]

Prayers for you on this day.

[DLCTEX]

I have found that it is wise to give to a friend rather than lend unless the price is greater than the friendship is worth. If it's too great, then don't lend. In matters of being wronged, what better gift than forgiveness? Easy to say, hard to give. Praying for you.

[mooman76]

I find as I get older I find it harder to let go of things. I know it is self distructive to just hang onto things but I am just tired of feeling like a doormat. It's a problem I am working on and I hope you work yours out. Friends are harder to come by as you get older or at least that's the way it is for most people. Thoughts and prayers are with you and may your burden be lifted.

[pmeisel]

Recognizing a problem is the first step towards a solution, and it sounds like you are on the right track. God Bless.

[Recluse]

Jon,

I too struggled with this when our goddaughter went off the deep end and we took back the car we'd bought and co-signed for her. Sold it to a cousin who I used to think was like a brother, and pretty much went through the same thing.

It was sheer agony trying to come to a resolution with how I felt versus my Christian faith. Prayer after prayer after prayer, and is typical of me, vile curses one after another.

When it all settled down, I found it wasn't the debt or the money that bothered me, even though the amount was absolutely significant.

It was the betrayal of trust and the feeling of being used.

All I'll add to this for perhaps your comfort or anyone else's is that once again, I discovered how God Himself must feel.

How many times have I prayed, asked, and begged him for "favors" for which I promised to "change something about me" or "do something good in His name" or anything else in which I either did not follow through, or did so miserably?

Yet, He still loves me. Unconditionally.

It's hard, Jon. Real hard.

I know.

:coffee:

[Wayne Smith]

We Christians often confuse two separate and distinct concepts. Forgiveness and reconciliation are different concepts. We are required by God to forgive, this means to me it is part of my relationship with God, not part of my relationship with the other person. It means dumping all my bitterness and anger onto God, He can handle it.

Jesus Christ is our model of reconciliation - He reconciles us to God on the basis of our repentance - Repent and believe and you will be saved, He said. In the Hebrew and Aramaic mindset I am what I do, so repentance is to change my behavior, not just to say I am sorry.

I take from this that I have no responsibility to reconcile with the person who sinned against me and open myself up to further hurt. I do have a responsibility to forgive, and this forgiveness allows me to love that person while protecting myself, and may even cause me to want that person to repent. To me reconciliation means trust, and that is broken when that other person sins against me or when I sin against another person. Yes, we are to take steps to encourage repentance, but protect ourselves in so doing.

That's my $0.02.

[Bret4207]

In the Hebrew and Aramaic mindset I am what I do, so repentance is to change my behavior, not just to say I am sorry.



To me that is the hardest thing to do. I have no problem saying I'm sorry. Really meaning it and changing my behavior? That's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish right there.

Jon, I've failed people and had people fail me. I don't know what they think of me, but I know what I think of myself and it's not any too much. So, I think I can sort of relate to what you may be feeling. Hang in there bud, he'll survive and so will you.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks for all the reassuring comments.
My friend and I are still friends and
my friend hasn't really wronged me,
it's more that I wronged myself.

our friendship has had a generous amount of giving back and forth.
much like brothers or family members.
we've never kept track of this or that.
I am quite sure he has given more to me...than me to him.

But there was one large item I had, that he really wanted,
a large homemade wood splitter, powered with a 70 year old
4 cylinder farm combine engine, which just sounds awesome at an idle.
I did have alot of $$$ invested in it.

About 5 years ago I decided I wanted to sell it, He said he
would buy it...but we have never paid each other for items
given to each other before, although, things were usually
just labor or items valued less than $200.
I was quite sure he would never pay me, from his history with
other friends and even family members, I've know him and his
circle of friends since 1993, and that's just how they do things.

About once a year I mention it and it always turns into a verbal argument,
with him saying "I'll pay you, don't be so uptight"
about 9 months ago (the last argument) I decided I would never bring it up again,
and I haven't...and I won't !

Which brings me to this week. I was told by the president of my sportsmen club,
that I need to remove several cords of firewood I had stacked at the sportsmens club...a few members thought I shouldn't be getting "free rent" so to speak and they
are probably right, although many members felt the wood stacked around the edge of the yard and woods looked real nice (it kind of hid the brush) and I kept it very neat looking...anyway, this situation has been stewing for some time, and I kind of expected it to happen. It's another long story, for another time.

So I need to move this firewood, I know my friend is in need of firewood,
but I'd like to get some money out of it, you know, Gas, oil, chains, time and such.
I haven't mentioned this to my friend, I know he'll want it.

I did find a buyer willing to pay $900 for the carefully measured 9.4 cords
and he will do all the work of hauling it away, which is great.
BUT, I know I would have given (for free) some or all of this wood to my friend if he paid
for that splitter...I have tried to let that go, but I just can't.

So, basically I feel guilty for not helping him out with the firewood, because
I can't get over the debt. And today being Thanksgiving day and all, and
I am blessed with much, including plenty of contract work at a higher than
average hourly rate.

I can rationalize that he should have made his own firewood, much of which
I have already cut up for him, it's all still in his woods (that is one of our deals,
I cut up his downed trees, I take half and leave him half).
He just needs to split it, then haul it to his house on the same property.
But he hasn't done it and I feel guilty selling this aged split firewood to another person, some of which came from his property...and if/when he finds out, he'll probably be PO'ed. It's a fairly small town, I'm pretty sure he'll find out.

well, there is the story I couldn't type this morning.
As I reread this to proof it for spelling and such,
I think maybe I need a lecture that I shouldn't worry about such things.
Jon

[Olevern]

It was yours to keep, use or sell...end of lecture.

[BT Sniper]

Happy Thanksgiving John. Not much more I can say. Hopefully not much more is needed then a kind word. Maybe somtimes that is all that is needed.

Brian

[Bret4207]

He owes you quite a lot more than you owe him. I don't see a big issue myself, but then I don't have a lot of close friends.

I don't know if this will help but- some decades back I lived in another town. I bought a house from a guy and bought a tractor from him too. He assured me the tractor was a fresh rebuild and that there were extra parts needed to get it running in the pile of parts that went with the tractor. He left town before I got the money to him and I discovered it wasn't a "fresh rebuild" at all and I needed several hundred $ worth of parts to fix it. I never heard from him for several years and then got a letter asking for the money. I contacted his son in law and explained the situation since it was convoluted and he agreed to pass the info along. Last I ever heard about it. Then a couple years later I borrow a brush hog from another guy. Things happen, I arrest him, I try and help take care of him and his mental issues, we (my family) bend over backwards ( along with other people) trying to help him and his family, the trial comes, I make my case and get in big trouble with the job and local politicians. Other stuff happens and by then I'd found my farm. The brush hog comes up here, he and his wife split and he won't talk to me, I try and pay her what it's worth when my other house sells, she says just keep it because I got in a lot of hot water for him and he'd just drink the money up anyway. I feel guilty. Years go by and I do a whole mess of work for an Amish kid welding stuff for him. I engage him to do a roofing job. He "buys" hay from me. He never finishes the roof and never pays for the welding or the hay. Another guy "buys" hay from me, never pays a cent. A while later I'm having breakfast with a guy and we get talking, Turns out he's the cousin of the guy I bought the house from. He mentions an old, worn out tractor his father owned that this guy "borrowed"- the one I ended up with. I find out I'm not the only one this guy sold busted, worn out junk to. In fact he has a reputation as being the last guy anyone who knows him would ever buy anything from.

The moral of the story- What goes around comes around and it all evens out in the end.

[gew98]

I have found that it is wise to give to a friend rather than lend unless the price is greater than the friendship is worth. If it's too great, then don't lend. In matters of being wronged, what better gift than forgiveness? Easy to say, hard to give. Praying for you.

Never loan money to family or close friends you cannot afford to lose. I have had "family" do me wrong more often than any stranger or friend.
I have delt with collector friends and dealers for many years of which some are friendly but not the kind of which you take in confidence lest you wish to get taken. I have loaned tools and th elike out in the distant past , but don't do it anymore...too many seem to expect it to be their property either right off the bat or by proxy due to how long they manage to keep it from you.
There are firends of which I would trust to my death and would give them anything they asked of me and do.
Friends of the past that had wronged me stopped being my friends back then with one exception many years later when that old friend reached out and asked for a second chance...and that is a rare event from my experiances.
My advice is to talk - air out what bothers you to the friend. If they are a friend they would certainly work it out and or understand. If you have mutual relgious beliefs to use as a crutch here then do use them.

[crabo]

Maybe you could sit down and talk with him. Ask him if you sell the firewood, you would like to apply his part of the money on the splitter to cancel the debt. It might work.

[mroliver77]

Don't sound like a healthy friendship to me. I would never, ever expect a friend to give me something of this value. I have given and recieved valuable gifts but with an understanding up front. It is much better to talk it out before hand than to carry a resentment.

If I was to give advice I would say to finalse it in your heart. Write off the splitter. It is just stuff. Sounds like the wood is yours bought and paid for. If he would expect you to give it to him I would think you need to reevaluate friendship.

My $2.00 worth.
J

[badbob454]

if you cannot get past it talk to your friend pray first and see if it can be worked out , i feel your pain , i helped out a guy and he has never repaid me , jut move on if possible as you said the lord has forgiven us all of so much maybe we can forgive in return , god in turn, will repay to this person in the end .. hope you are doing ok ... bob
ps sell the firewood if he asks why tell him you need the money

[Ickisrulz]

My 2 cents...

The Bible tells us to love our fellow man. This is not about an emotional love, it is about DOING what is right or making sacrifices (to include forgiving) regardless of how we feel about the matter. It is INTELLECTUAL followed by action based on our intellect rather than emotional.

If someone wrongs you, you are still expected to do what is right. If someone owes you money or even stole from you, you still have an obligation to do what is loving. This would include (but not limited to) providing for material needs (if that person has a crisis) and praying for that person.

The forgiveness that forgets that we were wronged and harbors no bad feelings (IOW feeling hurt) is beyond our control. Changing our bad feelings into bad actions is within our control.

As long as were are acting loving, our feelings matter very little most of the time.

[Mumblypeg]

Don't worry about it. I will help you do anything but will not do it for you if you are able. (I love doing stuff for people that can't do it themselves though.) I have a friend that I have done stuff for free and a better job than people that he has paid big money for them to do. It's not always reciprocal. But you know what? I figger if someone owes me when I die, then I'm ahead. Just be fair to yourself too. Hey, he had the woodsplitter... he can do it for his self. Why just this very afternoon, I took my spliter over to my neighbor's and we split a bunch and will finish in the morning. We do stuff for each other all the time. But some folks don't reciprocate... no big deal..:coffeecom

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks for all the great insight.
it all has helped,
Jon

[hiram1]

if he is like the red necks here he will feel that you got the money for the wood,so he is payed up or if he pays you half for the wood splitter,and you get the intrest on that half, it will pay you back.dont ask me how thay think it is how it is,or he will want you to pay him his part of the wood money,and if you dont you will be a low life in his eyes and that makes you the bad guy.it works for them that way.I had a friend who i got out of jail and it cost me $500.00 and has payed me $50.00 but he has bought a new harley for over $10.000 and has told me that he cant pay me now that he has to do the harley thing.so what do you do.I JUST HOPE HE DONT GET PUT IN JAIL NO MORE

[PatMarlin]

Tell him since he's had a hard time paying you for the Log splitter, let's make it a "share splitter."

A log splitter sits most of the year. A girlfriend of my wife's owns one, and when she's done with her firewood, she loans it to us, then we split all our wood with it. I change the oil and do all other maintenance on it, and will install a new engine if need be when ever that one bites the dust.

This has worked out great with a log splitter. Surely you guys can sit down over a beer and work something like that out. Can't be done with a lot of other equipment, but a log splitter? Yes.

[pmeisel]

I no longer live in the neighborhood, but once, we had a great sharing arrangement.

Dan and Mike owned snowblowers and did about 4 or 6 yards each. Mike also had a power washer and table saw.

I had the tiller, Wagner paint sprayer, and a beer tap. Also a chipper shredder.

Bear had a lawn aerator, and a strong back for manual labor.

There were a few others. We would loan tools and help each other with jobs.

I still keep in touch with a few of those folks, several years after moving.