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Dixie Slugs
11-23-2011, 11:36 AM
There are a great many shooters that load their early Colt SA's and replicas down to the psi suggested for black powder guns.
Thats all well and good......but smoky cases are the norm!
Why.......simple! 45 Long Colt cases of today are made as strong as 44 Mag cases due to the stronger Ruger guns. They just do not expand at the low 11.500 to 12,000 psi!
We have been testing both the Kirst and R&D conversion cylinders in the Ruger Old Army amd the Uberti 1858 revolvers (and Carbine).
No matter what powder we use for these situations we still get smoky fired cases! We even tried to aneal (sp) the case mouth, but it did not help much.
The answer...I suppose we will just live wieh it....James

geargnasher
11-23-2011, 11:46 AM
No, James, you don't "just live with it". You either use a Lee 45/70 sizer die or RCBS Cowboy sizer die and just "neck" size the brass enough to hold the largest boolit that will chamber. Use soft boolits, like 7-9 bhn, let the cylinder throats do the sizing.

Most of the soot problems I experience in my guns are due to grossly oversized chamber specs and minimal spec sizer dies. At low pressure, under 11K psi, the brass will expand just fine if it's fairly snug in the cylinder to begin with, but if it has to grow .020" or more to seal the chamber, it will never get there.

Gear

Wally
11-23-2011, 11:48 AM
I use an RCBS steel sizer die in the .45 Colt. It sizes the neck and works just fine for my Ruger Blackhawk reloads. This will solve the smoky fired case problem for you.

prs
11-23-2011, 12:50 PM
I've been the route on this because I shoot 45 Colt with black powder in lever action Marlin. Luck has it the Marlin fire formed brass and my Ruger Vaquero fire formed brass are almost identical. "Neck sizing" only with RCBS Cowboy dies is quite good and I used 454 boolits and expander intended for .454 lead boolits. An even larger outside diameter sizing die is the Lee carbide factory crimp, with the crimp component removed, of course. If I may be shooting in other revolvers where the fit is too tight for Marlin/Ruger fire formed, I use the Lee cfc die set to full length. This eliminates almost all of the blowback, esp true fire formed brass.

prs

sqlbullet
11-23-2011, 01:58 PM
This advice will make your brass last a lot longer too, since you will work it less.

Dixie Slugs
11-23-2011, 05:37 PM
Excellent answers indeed! The basic problem is most reloaders do not have the know-how of this group!
If we go this route of only neck sizing. the best way would to have the sizing die modified for neck sizing only. Then the decapping pin would be at a correct depth.
While the folks here know how to solve many problems on relaoding, the big outside group of reloaders do not.
Regards, James

USSR
11-23-2011, 08:13 PM
If we go this route of only neck sizing. the best way would to have the sizing die modified for neck sizing only. Then the decapping pin would be at a correct depth.

No need to modify the sizing die. Simply use a Universal Decapping Die, and then it doesn't matter where the decapping pin is in your sizing die.

Don

canyon-ghost
11-23-2011, 08:29 PM
The basic problem is most reloaders do not have the know-how of this group!


The biggest cast bullet site on the web and has the greatest bunch of guys that are probably doing exactly what you are working on!

MtGun44
11-23-2011, 10:30 PM
+1 on old RCBS steel dies.

OK, let's have a show of hands.

How many know that .45 LC is a tapered cartridge, not a straight case? Might this
have something to do with why carbide dies don't really work all that well? Yep.

Bill

2ndAmendmentNut
11-23-2011, 11:03 PM
Wow, great idea, neck size the brass. Why did I not think of that?

2ndAmendmentNut
11-23-2011, 11:07 PM
How many know that .45 LC is a tapered cartridge, not a straight case?
Bill

*raises hand* Are modern steel dies tapered or straight?

prs
11-23-2011, 11:14 PM
Dixie, as Buckwheat would say, "Dat be ET"." All you have to do to deprime and "neck size" in station 1 is to use the deprime pin from a universal deprime die in your regular die (not sure this can apply to the Cowboy die set as they may not have a londer deprime pin that will fit, but any machinist could remedy that).

prs

PatMarlin
11-23-2011, 11:17 PM
There's an article on this in the current Handloader.

2ndAmendmentNut
11-23-2011, 11:24 PM
Dixie, as Buckwheat would say, "Dat be ET"." All you have to do to deprime and "neck size" in station 1 is to use the deprime pin from a universal deprime die in your regular die (not sure this can apply to the Cowboy die set as they may not have a londer deprime pin that will fit, but any machinist could remedy that).

prs

Another great idea! This thread is stickie worthy IMHO.

prs
11-23-2011, 11:32 PM
+1 on old RCBS steel dies.

OK, let's have a show of hands.

How many know that .45 LC is a tapered cartridge, not a straight case? Might this
have something to do with why carbide dies don't really work all that well? Yep.

Bill

I could not raise my hands as I did not (do not yet) know that. I just did a quick google on it and the results were mixed. I may have to get up of my fat **** and go read the specs in a real book. My Winchester, Remmington, and Starline cases; all modern manufacture, seem to be quite straight. My Ruger cylinders seem to possibly hasve a very slight taper, but I would have to cast them and measure the caste to be sure. Hmmmmmmm.

prs

PatMarlin
11-23-2011, 11:49 PM
Just measured Starline 45LC once fired. .477 from base to mouth. Raining and to cold to go get a new Starline 45, but I measured a new Starline 454 Casull, and it's .475 from base to mouth.

prs
11-24-2011, 12:15 AM
I checked my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and the SAAMI dimensions are NOT indicated to be tapered. Same with Modern Reloading. A brand spanky new case from Starline in 45 Colt measured .477" all allong the case except the area right at the web was a thou or so smaller. A fire formed case from my Ruger Vaquero, such case also a Starline, measured within plus/minus one thou or .478 from mouth to close to the web, the web area again a tince smaller. So, I still can't raise my hands based upo my limited resources, but I bet you guys can tell me "the rest of the story".

JRR
11-24-2011, 12:17 AM
I've been harping on this for years. The specs. for the brass are different then the specs. for chambers. The chamber specs. are tapered by a few thousands. Some years ago a writer in "handloader" figured this out and had RCBS make a custom die that gave proper neck tension and a larger base size. TAPERED. I got one and have been happy ever since. The cases must be lubed due to not being carbide. You cannot have a tapered carbide. New Starline cases are straight and must then be fireformed to get the proper taper. After that the RCBS die can be used to give the proper dimensions. This tapered steel die is available from RCBS. Not sure about other brands.
Jeff

PatMarlin
11-24-2011, 12:26 AM
A fire formed case from my Ruger Vaquero, such case also a Starline, measured within plus/minus one thou or .488from mouth to close to the web, the web area again a tince smaller.


Wow- .488? My Blackhawk fired was .477. I never measured my throats now that I have pin gages, but that .477 looks good.

prs
11-24-2011, 12:35 AM
Wow- .488? My Blackhawk fired was .477. I never measured my throats now that I have pin gages, but that .477 looks good.

Sorry Pat and others, that was one of my too frequent type-Os. I corrected it to read .478".

prs

PatMarlin
11-24-2011, 12:42 AM
That's much better and will be a whole lot better on case life.

geargnasher
11-24-2011, 01:36 AM
My New Vaquero SS makes Starline brass about .490" x .488" at about 3/16" above the rim after several firings with near max SAA-level loads. When neck-sized to hold .453" boolits the cartridge looks like a 44/40.

Gear

btroj
11-24-2011, 09:08 AM
My Blackhawk does the same thing Gear. Full length size they have a belly in the loaded round. Bulge at bottom from the head, bulge at top from bullet, skinny in middle from sizing.
One thing I will say for this situation- you sure do know why a case splits. It splits well over half the length of the case. They have a distinct sound upon ejections from a Marlin too. I know before they hit the ground that they are toast.
I have not tried the 45-70 die trick, might need to give it a go.

Fr those who are "neck sizing" how far down the case are sizing? I would think ou need to go just past where the base of the bullet would be. Need good tension and all.

Brad

BCB
11-24-2011, 11:52 AM
I only neck-size my 45 Colt cases to the depth that the 45-270-SAA boolit will be seated…

I think someone mentioned the decapping pin might not be long enough when only neck-sizing…

Here is a Hornady die that is adjusted to neck-size only…

My RCBS die will adjust the same…

Good-luck…

BCB

nicholst55
11-24-2011, 06:51 PM
And for those with too much money, Redding now offers their Dual Ring (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/943821/redding-dual-ring-carbide-sizer-die-45-colt-long-colt) sizing dies for .45 Colt and other revolver cartridges. It does the same thing(s) we've been discussing here, and it's even on sale at Midway right now.

MtGun44
11-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Modern guns are very much trying to make this into a straight case, but originally, the chamber
was slightly tapered. I have no certain idea what current steel reloading dies are like, but
I do know that I first heard this from Brian Pierce and when I bought my second set of
.45 lc dies they are old model RCBS and have a slight taper. Apparently, modern steel
RCBS dies are straight, no idea about others. Not at home (T-day in Va at Dad's)
but if I remember, I'll measure my USFA pistol and Ruger chambers, and then some fired
brass, and then some sized brass when I get home.

The convenience of straight cases for carbide dies makes everyone WANT to have this be
a straight case and it is very nearly one, but NOT quite in many guns, apparently the older
SAAs being some of the worse examples. If your chambers are straight, then no problem,
get on with things. But if they are tapered, you may want to look into making tapered ammo.

Anyone with an old SAA that could measure the brass after firing, it would be very interesting
to know the numbers.

Bill

MikeS
11-25-2011, 12:42 AM
This tapered steel die is available from RCBS. Not sure about other brands.
Jeff

Jeff - Do you know the part number of the RCBS tapered sizing die? Is this a special order die, or are all their steel 45LC dies tapered? I can't find any mention of their steel die being tapered, so figure maybe it's a special order die. Thanks!

JRR
11-25-2011, 02:05 AM
MikeS
I don't know the model #. The die reads Colt Size Z. I've had this complete die set for about 10 years. The complete die set is labeled 19108, group B. The number below the bar code is 76683 19108 3. Hope this helps.
Jeff

USSR
11-25-2011, 10:40 AM
The complete die set is labeled 19108, group B. The number below the bar code is 76683 19108 3.

That's a standard RCBS .45 Colt Steel Die Set. I replaced my carbide die set with this set, and it does a great job in eliminating the excessive resizing below the neck.

Don

Moonman
11-25-2011, 05:03 PM
I just measured a brand new (UNFIRED) Starline 45 LC case, purchased within the last month from STARLINE .4735 at the mouth, .4760 at the base.

MtGun44
11-26-2011, 12:14 AM
We need to get some chamber measurements going.

Bill

w30wcf
11-26-2011, 01:03 AM
Dixie Slugs,
EXCELLENT advice from our cast bullet 45 Colt afficianados.:-)

I have been loading for the .45 Colt since the mid 1970's and have been neck sizing my brass since the late 1970's with a Lyman Carbide sizing die. I found that with that die, the decapping pin can be extended far enough so that the primer can be removed while neck sizing only.

According to SAMMI specs, 45 Colt chambers have a bit more "windage" than most other cartridges. In otherwords, more than just a bit of clearance between the diameter of the unfired case and the chamber. Most other cartridges have about .007" maximum "windage" in the chambers, but in the .45 Colt it can be up to double that amount! (.491" max SAMMI chamber spec (rear) / .475" case diameter).

In one of my Rugers, chambers measure .488" rear / .481" front and the other .489" rear / .482" front. Chambers for most cartridges are tapered slightly for easy case extraction.

By custom fitting the case to the chamber(s) by neck sizing after firing, and using larger diameter bullets (I like .456/.457" - the diameter of the original .45 Colt bullets) chamber windage is greatly reduced and thus blowby is lessened considerably and pretty much entirely eliminated when, in addition, the case is annealed as the following pic shows.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45Coltannealednecksizedjpg.jpg

w30wcf

Longone
11-26-2011, 01:17 AM
From Steves reloading pages. Just one source, not sure where he obtained the drawing.

Longone

Bullet Caster
11-26-2011, 05:42 PM
So then I've bought .45 LC carbide dies from Lee and they cannot even be used for .45 colt because it's a tapered case with a straight carbide sizing die. So carbide dies cannot be tapered? I hate buying something and then told that they cannot be used. Guess I should have been to this thread before I purchased any dies. Well, I think that it's too late for me now. That Redding dual ring die is kinda pricey for me to purchase. What do I do now? Thanks. BC

littlejack
11-26-2011, 07:13 PM
I DO use the Lee carbide dies, and I neck size only. I didn't want to spend more money on more tools if not absolutely needed. It works, even though the brass still gets a little smokey, I can live with that.
My load is with 9 grains of Herco and a 255 to 260 grain boolit for 900 fps. I shoot it in the Uberti "Evil Roy" SAA. I single stag load my 45 Colt brass, so I do not want to take the time to lube and then wipe after sizing.
Jack

prs
11-26-2011, 07:23 PM
Don't make your beer salty with tears just yet, Bullet Caster (I didn know you could cast bullets). The Lee and other straight dies will do a fine job of it. Unless your gun is an antique, apparently it is chamberd staight. The 45 Colt is an original black powder cartridge and after lots of firng with REAL gunpowder it can be rather difficult to chamber a round that would drop into and rattle about in a clean chamber.

PigeonRoost Slim

jblee10
11-26-2011, 07:37 PM
Check out the current SAAMI specs.

It shows a cylindrical case and a tapered chamber. Quite alot more tapered than the 44 mag.

Neck sizing only has helped with soot and accuracy for me.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

PatMarlin
11-27-2011, 12:41 AM
w30wcf, what crimp do you use?

PatMarlin
11-27-2011, 12:48 AM
So then I've bought .45 LC carbide dies from Lee and they cannot even be used for .45 colt because it's a tapered case with a straight carbide sizing die. So carbide dies cannot be tapered? I hate buying something and then told that they cannot be used. Guess I should have been to this thread before I purchased any dies. Well, I think that it's too late for me now. That Redding dual ring die is kinda pricey for me to purchase. What do I do now? Thanks. BC

They work great BC. No worries there. I'm gonna see how they work with my heavy keith boolits here soon.

w30wcf
11-27-2011, 08:24 AM
Pat,
A roll crimp.

SAAMI Tolerances for the .45 Colt
Cartridge case od:
.474 - .480 (I have some factory cartridges that measure .475")

Chamber diameter rounded to the nearest .000:
rear: .486 - .490
front: .480 - .484

Chamber dimensions in my Rugers fall in the middle range of those tolerances.

w30wcf

KYCaster
11-27-2011, 12:14 PM
Another skeptic here. I've heard this statement before. I've also heard the same thing about 45ACP.

Here's what SAAMI says about the 45 Colt.........

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Colt.pdf


And the 45ACP, just because I was curious........

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Automatic.pdf


Jerry

pistolman44
11-27-2011, 12:37 PM
I don't know about the comment that 45 LC brass is strong as 44 mag brass. In my RBH I use RP brass and load it up heavy with WC820 that it bulges the brass at the bottom just above the rim after fireing. The load Is 15 gr wc820 with a 252 gr LRNF. Very hot but accurate. I use this load on white tales and works very good out to about 70 yds.

JRR
11-27-2011, 06:25 PM
I have used 18-18.5 gr. of WC820 (slow batch), 285 gr. boolit in my Win. 94 with up to 6 reloadings. My steel size die leaves the base at .480-.481" and so does not overwork the Starline brass. Approx. 1450 fps. with the 16" barrel. Fired but unsized brass is .482-.483".
Jeff

Dixie Slugs
11-27-2011, 06:39 PM
Excellent answers indeed! I have learnd some new ways here!
Ole' Dixie closed shop in November and have spent quite a bit of time on our Florida coastal islands hunting hogs.
Our main thing was to test Ruger Old Army and Uberti 1858 revolvers and carbine.....with Kirst Conversion cylinder in the Ruger and R&D conversion cylinders in the 1858 revolver and carbine. Both in 45 Long Colt. We were using the Laser Cast .452"/200 gr. bullet.
It killed well, but my next project will be to design a mold with our Extreme Meplat that weighs at 200/230 grs.
I am very impressed with the Uberti revolver and carbine! Both are finished & fitted very tight. Both have a higher front sights (3/8" width)) and we had no trouble sighting in.
An excellent load in the Kirst & R&D is Ken Waters listed load at under 12,000psi....10.0/10.5 grs of Herco and the 200 gr .452" bullet.
As we work toward a cast bullet with a very big meplat and around 200 grs.....I will post the results.
By the way.....both the Kirst and R&D (as per the makers) can be used with standard factory 45 Long Colt......James

PatMarlin
11-27-2011, 07:12 PM
SHEESH,

I just lost a once fired new Starline 454 casull case in my LEE depriming die. The case severed about 3/8" up from the case head when I was pulling out and left the rest of the case stuck in the die ...:roll:

PatMarlin
11-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Well since a 1/2 jacket stuck in my 454 Casull die, I moved over to 45LC.

I loaded 20gr of IMR 4227 behind a 305gr Keith (group buy square groove recreation) AC WW speed green lube, Checkmaker™ 45PB Pistol caliber- beer can plain base gas check, sized to .454. CCI 300 primer crimped in the crimp groove with an OAL of 1.705 inches.

LEE standard carbide dies, no factory crimp. Flared the mouth and charged through the charge die. Crimped with the boolit seated die. Standard LEE crimp which ever it is... roll?

The Starline brass average roundness loaded measured .4765 at the base .4745 at the mouth, and fired case measures .477 at the base .477 at the mouth. The cases fired were not smoked out, but lightly frosted in color. Not to bad. Not perfectly clean.

The first six shots I popped dog food cans off hand (2 hands) at 35 yards with no problems. Missed one out of six. Next, set up a target at 35yds, off hand with target shown. Out of six- 4 holes hit black at bout' 2.560" x 2.112" center to center. One shot hit the lower stapled corner. One shot didn't make the target. 2 showed touching.

I'm pretty happy with that since I'm way out of practice handgun shooting. No leading what so ever and it's hard to see but I recovered one boolit folded in the bottom of the dog food can. The beer can PB gas check was still on the boolit.

I say this is promising results out of 12 rounds total loaded.


http://www.patmarlins.com/can.jpg




http://www.patmarlins.com/boolits3.jpg




http://www.patmarlins.com/35yardstarget.jpg




http://www.patmarlins.com/group3



http://www.patmarlins.com/group1

Ben
11-27-2011, 10:12 PM
That should get their attention.

Ben

mroliver77
11-29-2011, 03:56 PM
I learned something from this thread. I did not realise there is a taper. I neck size already so I doubt my technique will change. I am going to do a complete remeasuring of cases, chambers etc. If anything drastic shows up I will compensate.
Jay

Catshooter
11-29-2011, 08:30 PM
If you want to go really crazy and start biting at the carpet, start measuring brass after sizing for out of round!


Cat

PatMarlin
11-30-2011, 12:32 AM
Cat- what is the number of that boolit in my pick above? It's your group buy about 305grs.

Maximumbob54
09-15-2015, 02:15 PM
Found this old thread that is just too full of info to fade into obscurity. And now there's another .45 Colt mold I need...

PatMarlin
09-15-2015, 04:35 PM
My favorite. Cherish that mold. Awesome boolit.

Install a PB check on it and go where Keith only dreamed of... lol