Damp powder residue

[bigted]

been reading again....i know huh??

P Mathews has several books out and the current read is "loading the black-powder cartridge". in this and a couple other books by Mathews...i read about a powder from the far past that left a damp fouling in the barrel and how easy it was to shoot several loads very accurately before any fouling control was used. just wondering if anyone has had experience with this magical powder and why the devil cant we make this powder now-a-day?

his answer to this is the lube wad. and he has several recipe's for such including a b-wax/Vaseline mix 50/50. as for lube wads...i have yet to try these but think i should as i really like the thought of shooting as many as 20 or 30 times without the need to blow or wipe between shots for accuracy.

i also know...[ tho not from experience ] that a smokeless primer behind the black will get close to the 'no need to clean twix shots' however i want pure bp in my cases just as the grandfathers did it.

i have read the Mathews books and others where the author states that after an afternoon of shooting sticks floating down a stream he finally had to clean his rifle and go home.......id die for the chance to shoot such loads for an "afternoon" before having to drool a patch thru the bore so as to be able to keep hitting to point of aim or also not have the streaks of sheared lead to clean up after.

any thoughts and yep...im bout half lazy so no need to bring this up if you can keep from it...LOL

[powderburnerr]

you need to load a military type load where you have a balanced load to a short seated bullet , this burns as clean as it can and the deep seated bullet allows you to chamber the next round ,
if the powder is loaded in the case correctly you will get a very clean burn , they will not necessaraly be target loads but will give good hunting accuracy , Read wolfs book and resist drilling the primer pockets , you will be mildly surprised.

[bigted]

powderburner...more specific on the 'wolf' book please?

[powderburnerr]

www.the45-70book.com from wolfs western traders.it is explained in there how the military loads were built , they work and shoot all day , just like you want . . there is a little give in primers and drilling the flash holes but the procedure will work .

[excess650]

ah, yes, the Holy Grail of BP loads!

I know Paul, and have shot with him over the years. His shooting days are over, I'm afraid, but he's had a long run.

IMO, avoid the vaseline. There are better choices to add to beeswax to make a grease cookie. Mild primers are usually better, but Garbe (amongst others) touted the use of an ''over primer wad" to dampen the hot flash from primers. Try RP 2-1/2 pistol primers, standard sized flash hole, and keep compression to 1/8" or less. Too, like your grease cookie, the lube needs to be compatible with BP fouling, so avoid petroleum products. Anhydrous lanolin should be at the top of your list of ingredients.

If you continue to shoot after your barrel is hot(without blowtube or wiping) there is little you can do(short of duplex) to keep the fouling from caking. Swiss BP is reputed to be the best, having the best ingredients (including charcoal with sufficient croeosote content), but makes the MOST heat in my experience. Large grained powder will be consumed more slowly due to its large surface area, so will have a slower pressure peak and distribute the fouling more evenly through the length of the barrel.

Try 7-3-3 beeswax, anhydrous lanolin and Dexron III ATF (synthetic sperm oil) for a lube and grease cookie. On very humid days it will retain more moisture in the barrel than any other lube I've experienced to the point that more than 1 breath through a blowtube caused groups to increase in size. (longtime BPCRS shooter)

[bigted]

yes i have experienced the patrolium products goo. not anxious to return to this in any way shape or form. the Vaseline i refer to is from the text i mentioned...personally i have no problems with my present lube of... 1/3 b-wax 1/3 Crisco 1/3 peanut oil. im going to try it in a greese cookie soon but at -40 degrees out im going to wait for a warmer day....like maybe next May...LOL.

i just wondered if any body had an answer to why the builders of current black powder seem to miss the boat if there were indeed a procedure to add a moisture condition to the fouling after the shot without having to blow down the tube.

also im going to purchase the aforementioned book and my thanks for this hint on expanding my growing library.

[405]

bigted,
The advice on good lubes is right on the money. If the humidity is up and a good lube is used and some compression is used with the bullet seated slightly away from the leade then the fouling will be minimal and the load can be shot for a longer string before having to swab.

Also, you mentioned the duplex load. That for certain is another way to control fouling for extended shooting. For those loads I use either 4759 or 5744- no more than 5-10% of the BP load! You'll have to adjust the BP load down to compensate for the volume of the smokeless. Then load as per normal BPCR. Most recommend this for modern, strong BPCR guns as it will increase pressure a little. But it will burn clean and you can extend the shot string a bunch- more than any other way except when burning only smokeless.

[NickSS]

Some BP burn cleaner than others but all leave fouling. The Army solved the problem by simply making the rifling grooves vary in depth from the breach to the muzzle starting at .015 at the chamber and ending at .005 at the muzzle. This allowed for many more shots before it was necessary to clean the bore. Accuracy was good enough for military purposes but nothing spectacular. Thar is why to get premium accuracy from a trapdoor you need fat bullets. Grease cookies work and I have used them for some CASS side matches where you are shooting a lever gun fast. They take more time to load at the bench and some fussing to get loads accurate but you can shoot many rounds without cleaning as long as the gun does not get too hot. If it gets hot fouling builds up and accuracy suffers. Mostly I use a blow tube as it kind of paces the rounds and keeps the barrel from getting too hot during the string of bullets I am shooting.

[powderburnerr]

I am pretty convinced that any powder burns clean when you get the right fuel /air ratio.it just may not be the perfect load for your particular rifle. just like finding accurate loads you have to experiment to reach your goal.

[bigted]

thanks all...ill try the mix for lube excess...i just wondered if anybody knew why the bp makers seem to miss the boat with this...the Mathews book is only the last book i have read that proclaimed this seemingly lost art of making bp.

my days of experimenting are done for the winter but i am going to assemble some loads including lube wads for when the weather gets human again and i don't have to snow shoe three miles for a shooting session.

[excess650]

[QUOTE=bigted;1474224]thanks all....i just wondered if anybody knew why the bp makers seem to miss the boat with this...the Mathews book is only the last book i have read that proclaimed this seemingly lost art of making bp.QUOTE]

The answer is because of the advent of smokeless around 120 years ago. BP quality was likely at its zenith about the time that smokeless was being developed, and when its quality improved enough, BP production became a lost art.

Bulk smokeless supplanted BP for a while. As smokeless progressed, even the bulk smokeless was discarded in favor of the cleaner, higher energy powders.

From what I've read, the BP available in the 1970s was pretty crappy compared to today's powders. Certainly, the Wano from around 1990 and the Elephant made prior to 1999 weren't particularly strong or clean. I shot Goex starting to the mid to late 1970s but had nothing to compare it to until I started BPCRS in the early 1990s. By the mid 1990s Goex Ctg seemed to be the best available for cartridges, but Goex had another plant explosion in '96 or '97 and the plant was relocated to Louisiana. During the interim, Elephant was being spurred to improve quality, and Goex imported the first lots of Swiss that I'm aware of. Goex resumed production in the spring of 1998, and began importing KIK in 2000.

Since then a new, improved lot of Wano, now known as Schuetzen has been imported. Elephant's factory was flooded and out of production until recently, and is now producing Diamondback. Goex has been purchased by Hogdon, and a new lot of KIK was imported in 2010 that is reputedly improved. The Swiss remains the highest energy BP.

[Lead pot]

Lube is a big factor and so is the powder when it comes to fouling. I dont agree that Swiss has soft fouling. I find that Swiss turns to a very hard fouling as the barrel heats up and once you loose control of your barrel conditions it gets like gravel in the bore and when this happens all you can do is wipe it with a wet patch. You cant bring it back using a blow tube even if you moisten your mouth with water before using the tube.
Now I'm not saying that it's not a good shooting powder, it is, but you will be better served wiping between shots using it.
I judge my powder and lube by blowing with the blow tube one long slow exhale and then pushing a dry patch through and if everything is working that patch will slide through and be a damp black greasy patch.
My .50-90 will get hot in a hurry even in the winter with fast consecutive fired shots but I can point the muzzle down and let the round drop in with out a problem and shoot with out fouling control and stay on a 4 foot 600 yard target with not many misses.
Yes I will get lead flakes when I clean but not enough to hurt accuracy.
I get slight lead flakes even when I use the tube if I shoot GG bullets, but nothing with properly wrapped PP bullets at a proper diameter.

[RMulhern]

Kurt

As pertaining to a major problem with shooting GG bullets which is LEADING:

"but nothing with properly wrapped PP bullets at a proper diameter"

And therein lies the secrecy if there is one to consistent accuracy with a BPCR!!

But most guys don't have the patience to take the time to sit and properly wrap paper patch bullets! They'd rather chase their arses for years trying to find out what works, buy numerous books for sale (by authors with less experience than some guys on these forums I might add) and in the final analysis chase their tails! With that being said...there are guys on these forums that know what they're talking about but yet....their advice given is thrown up against the schitt house wall by those asking the questions with the result that they never find what works! It seems as if they're afflicted with what ails America today; everybody wants everything RIGHT NOW and not willing to listen to others whom have already been down a hard road and learned what works!![smilie=b::groner::violin::veryconfu:popcorn:

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Amen to that.

BvT

[Beekeeper]

OK here is a question for the paper patchers!
I like to patch but the conflicting answers I get sometimes has kinda shut me down until I find a definative answer.

I shoot 43 Mausers .
.446 and .449 groove diameters.
What is the proper patch diameter for these barrels?


beekeeper

[RMulhern]

Anywhere from .001" to .003" under BORE DIAMETER!!

[Beekeeper]

RMulhern,
Please remember I am not being facesious by asking this.
I am trying to learn as much as possible from the experts in the field.

Why .001 to .003 under bore size and not under groove size?
I understand the bump up principle but isn't that a little too much?

beekeeper

[RMulhern]

beekeeper

NO...it's not too much under! I've had the best accuracy with my 45 2 7/8 using a .4465" BACO PP bullet (alloy of 1-40) which is the finished/wrapped diameter! If you shoot groove diameter, and this is strictly my opinion as I'm certain Montana Charlie won't agree....is that this requires seating the bullet deeply into the case reducing the amount of powder capacity....that is unless you wish to compress the powder to a great degree, which I don't like! Conversely...with patching to bore diameter, this requires seating the bullet only possibly .125" into the mouth of the case and the other benefit is that the cartridge will chamber nicely concerning not being bound up by any fouling! Keeping in mind this is just MY OPINION; more ways than one to skin a cat! And I've pretty much tried 'em all!

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to ya!!

[montana_charlie]

If you shoot groove diameter, and this is strictly my opinion as I'm certain Montana Charlie won't agree....is that this requires seating the bullet deeply into the case reducing the amount of powder capacity....that is unless you wish to compress the powder to a great degree, which I don't like!
If that was an invitation to comment, I'll say this ...
If you can get enough powder in the case to shoot grease grooved bullets, you can get the same amount in there under a patched-to-groove bullet.
And .. some powders burn more cleanly when compressed.

Conversely...with patching to bore diameter, this requires seating the bullet only possibly .125" into the mouth of the case and the other benefit is that the cartridge will chamber nicely concerning not being bound up by any fouling!
Having watched Rick's videos of him shooting patched-to-bore ammo, it is apparent that he wipes between shots ... two wet and one dry. I also wipe with two wet and one dry when shooting patched-to-groove ammo. There is no fouling to consider after the bore has been wiped.
The difference may come in if it's true that wiping is a 'must' with groove and an 'option' with bore.

I haven't said anything which says Rick is wrong in any way, but there are other facets to the thinking than those he mentioned.

If you feel like a trip through 'my thinking' on patched-to-groove bullets, I offer this link to my exploration into that.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42529

CM

[Lead pot]

I patch to slightly over bore with some bullets and some as much as .002 under bore. Both ways work and work good. I load differently depending on the bullet or what my rifle has for a throat or the bullet I want to use for a particular use..
One thing I wont do is patch a groove diameter bullet and force it through a sizing die or load a bullet wrapped to a to large diameter and cam it in the chamber using a tool or glue a patch on so it dont come unwrapped. I read this garbage going on on some of these forums and they say they get great accuracy. They must have a pretty low standard when it comes to accuracy.

[Don McDowell]

...ill try the mix for lube excess...i just wondered if anybody knew why the bp makers seem to miss the boat with this...the Mathews book is only the last book i have read that proclaimed this seemingly lost art of making bp.thanks all
.

The bp makers didn't miss the boat. There's alot of nonsense floating about on how good the powders were. I've shot powder from the 1800's and it wasn't nothing special.
In the 70's we were constantly bombarded with how great Curtis and Harvey was and Goex was bad..... My guns said the folks the put that stuff out didn't quite know siccum from scat. Much like the often same ol regurgitated stuff about Swiss we hear nowdays...

Keep working on your lube, a lube will make or break accuracy and contributes greatly to fouling. Powderburner is spot on with his comments in this thread.

[Beekeeper]

Thank you all for kinda letting me hijack the thread to ask my questions.
Have paper patched for smokeless and am now taking the big leap to black powder.
Will give both ideas a try and see which one works best for me.

Again thank you.


beekeeper

[RMulhern]

If that was an invitation to comment, I'll say this ...
If you can get enough powder in the case to shoot grease grooved bullets, you can get the same amount in there under a patched-to-groove bullet.
And .. some powders burn more cleanly when compressed.

Having watched Rick's videos of him shooting patched-to-bore ammo, it is apparent that he wipes between shots ... two wet and one dry. I also wipe with two wet and one dry when shooting patched-to-groove ammo. There is no fouling to consider after the bore has been wiped.
The difference may come in if it's true that wiping is a 'must' with groove and an 'option' with bore.

I haven't said anything which says Rick is wrong in any way, but there are other facets to the thinking than those he mentioned.

If you feel like a trip through 'my thinking' on patched-to-groove bullets, I offer this link to my exploration into that.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42529

CM

Charlie

"I haven't said anything which says Rick is wrong in any way, but there are other facets to the thinking than those he mentioned."

AGREED! However...I think the 'facets' are very limited as to what can be done and what cannot and that's taking into consideration the peculiarities from rifle to rifle! One can alter the diameter of the bullet utilized, the thickness of the paper, the alloy used, seating depth, powder charge, compressed heavily or lightly, wads, so forth but in the final analysis I don't think BPCR shooting is much different from shooting smokeless in that there will be one load combination that will always work best over anything else tried.:p;)

[hydraulic]

I read somewhere on one of these BPCR boards, that someone had finally won a major match using paper patched bullets. Is this true?

[Don McDowell]

Huydraulic I think most of the top finishers at the Lodi creedmoor were shooting patched.

[RMulhern]

MC

Wiping!

"Having watched Rick's videos of him shooting patched-to-bore ammo, it is apparent that he wipes between shots ... two wet and one dry."

I've discovered lately that FOR ME.....one wet and one dry is just as accurate!!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Fo course, whether or not you shoot that 43 M 71/84 as a repeater sure has a part in the equation.

BvT

[martinibelgian]

FWIW, apparently British practice was to use groove-dia. PP bullets. And don't forget that by the late 1800's, most European countries were shooting some kind of PP bullet in their military rifles - no wiping, no blowtubing, just shooting. The US was one of the exceptions of the time, shooting a GG bullet. Even the Mauser 71/84 shot PP bullets, repeater and all... I'm pretty sure that the Mauser 74 used a bore-dia. PP bullet - the chamber won't allow anything else. But the 71/84 chamber config is different, and will allow the use of groove-dia. bullets.