Best boolits and twists for 2500+ fps

[Marlin Junky]

I was looking at 17HMR's for general pest and perhaps coyote control and got to thinking about the near two-bit-a-shot price tag and now I'm wondering if their performance (accuracy and trajectory) could be matched by castings. I'm not looking for dramatic terminal ballistics, just a clean, humane kill on feathered and furred targets of opportunity out to a couple hundred yards.

I'm considering everything from Lyman 257420 in the 25-20WCF to something like 287346 in a single shot .280 (assuming 4759). I realize 2500 fps is not possible with the later combo but given a B.C. of around .250, a muzzle velocity of approx. 2000 fps would probably be adequate. How's that for all over the map? I just can bring myself to scoping one of my super accurate pre-55 336's (in 30-30) but would give an NEF 30-30 barrel a change given sufficient encouragement.

MJ

[Blammer]

I think there are a few here shooting 22's at "gulp" dare I say it. 3,000 fps or better. :)

[jwmprock]

I shoot .22 cast at 2700-3000 plus in .218 Mashburn Bee, .223 and .22-250. Linotype, don't worry about expansion, bullet will explode on anything it hits. Takes a lot of tinkering to get the powder, velocity, bullet size, etc. all worked out to get good accuracy (1" at 100 yds) without leading or other problems. These little bullets are NOT easy to cast, need to seperate by weight and inspect with magnifying lens unless your eyes are better than mine. But it can be done and is great fun. For another solution to the problem, think about a .32 caliber muzzle loader shooting patched ball with about 20 grains fffg. Don't laugh, with a 4x scope accuracy is minute of ground squirrel to 50 yards or so.

[Whistler]

I did a simulation in Quickload with the Lee 105gn SWC in a 14" Contender chambered for .357 Max reaching 2400 fps with safe pressures. I doubt it would work in real life with a plain based bullet, but I would love to try it out.

[Marlin Junky]

I shoot .22 cast at 2700-3000 plus in .218 Mashburn Bee, .223 and .22-250. Linotype, don't worry about expansion, bullet will explode on anything it hits. Takes a lot of tinkering to get the powder, velocity, bullet size, etc. all worked out to get good accuracy (1" at 100 yds) without leading or other problems. These little bullets are NOT easy to cast, need to seperate by weight and inspect with magnifying lens unless your eyes are better than mine. But it can be done and is great fun.

Mold ID's and twists, please. Targets would be nice too.

Thank you,
MJ

[Mavrick]

I've used the ---420 from my M92 (a rebarrelled Rossi) in .256 Magnum. It has a 14" twist, and is 22" long.
If that's not the rifle I tossed in the truck, it was an M94 Winchester that I'd rebarrelled to .25/35 Improved, and use the same bullet at 2000-2700fps. That's from a 21" barrel with a 12" twist.
As an alternative, I could be carrying a wildcat .25(essentially a .250/3000 Improved) on an M98 Mauser, with a 20" barrel. Usually, the velocity from that gun is closer to 2000fps. It is also twisted at 12".
None of these make a lot of noise, nor cause a ruckus at the back, but lower the varmint population from the front. They're a lot of fun, and aren't expensive to shoot.
Playing with your .25/20 would be a ball, starting off with Red Dot or Green Dot, and working on to Li'l Gun, or WW296.
Have fun,
Gene

[1Shirt]

You don't know alternatives until you try them. Thats the beauty of this forum and the ideas you get based on experiance of actual casters/loaders/shooters.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

The smaller calibers can do it if the twist is 14 - 16" and the bullet is compatable. As mentioned though it takes some tinkering and, once the right combination is found, you have to be consistent in casting and loading to maintain the best accuracy.

With factory rifles you can come close with a 223 bolt gun, 12" twist (preferably a 14" twist, 225438 or 225462 with AA4350, H4831, RL19 or RL22.

Better is a good bolt action .222 with a 14" twist using the same bullets/powders as for the 223.

A good 22-250 with 14" twist is also a good bet.

An older 244 Rem with a 12' twist will come close with a 245496.

An older .250 Savage of 257 Roberts with a 14" twist will also do it with 257464.

The 6.5, .270 and 7mms will do IF you get a custom barrel with a 12 or preferably 14" twist. Best bullets would be 266455 or the GB 6.5 Kurtz, the 280468 and the 287129/28-168-FN (original Lovern RCBS bullet)

Smaller capacity cartridges are much harder to get consistent accuracy from because they require a faster powder to attain that velocity. You want to use as slow a burning powder as you can with consistent ignition and as close to 100% loading density as possible. Hence the larger capacity cases with the slower powders.

I'll advise you once again to try the .308W or the '06 with a 14" twist and a longer (26 - 30") barrel. Use either the Lyman 311466 or the LBT 150 gr bullet. Use AA4350, H4831 or RL19 powders. Use a softer, malleable alloy of 17 - 20 BHN (I use linotype/lead at 80/20). Here are some test groups with my .308W using the 311466. The 3 sighters were on another target. There ar three 100 yard groups and a 200 yard group. Velocity was right at 2600 fps. The 40 test shots were fired consecutively w/o cleaning the barrel. Subsequent tests at 300 yards shows the sub 1.5 moa accuracy for 10 shots still holds.

The rifle is nothing special, just a WWII M98 Mauser action, a Schultz & Larson 27.5" Palma barrel in a crude but serviceable composite copy of Savages old SS 110 stock. The scope is a a 10X Weaver. It does, however, shoot Sierra MKs into consistent sub 1/2 moa.

The 311466s were cast in a 4 cavity Lyman mould of the Linotype/lead alloy. They were not weighed but only visually inspected for defects. They were sized at .311, Hornady GC'd and lubed with Javelina. The noses and 1st driving band were swaged down to .300 so the bullet could be seated out with the GC at the base of the neck.

The cases are LC 92 Match cases that have been neck turned for concentricity. Only other "match prep" was to debur the flash holes. They are NS'd in a Redding bulling die so there is .002 neck tension on the seated bullet.

As you can see there is nothing "magic" or "secretive" in these loads. There was no "art" to loading these cartridges. The "technique" to loading is pretty much common reloading knowledge, available in numerous publications and is known by most every handloader with any experience. The "secret" is to control the RPM with the slower twist barrel keeping it below the RPM threshold, use a correctly designed bullet and to soften the acclelleration of the bullet with as slow a burning powder as practical.

Larry Gibson

[excess650]

coyotes? screw 'em! Use a 22-250 with jacketed and have at 'em as far as you can see.

[jwmprock]

Mold ID's and twists, please. Targets would be nice too.

Thank you,
MJ

MJ: Lyman 225438, with lino it drops them right at .225, I lube without sizing (hard lube), gas check, 2400 powder for the .218 Mashburn Bee, which is my favorite, I can pretty much shoot the book loads for j word and have full or near full case. I don't like the bigger cases for this game because I haven't found a powder that will let me fill the case. I started tinkering with this years ago. Out in Eastern Oregon we have a plague of ground squirrels that we locally call sage rats. They are about 1/2 the size of a regular ground squirrel, look like miniature prairie dogs. When they hatch out in the spring, you can sit in one spot with a bench rest and shoot all day. Not unheard of to burn 2,000 rounds in a day. I love launching them into orbit with 4200 fps 40 grain Vmax but burning out a barrel in a day is a bit much. So, we shoot a lot of them with accurate .22 rimfires, ie, Ruger 10/22's with Volquartson barrels and triggers, etc. or CZ 452's and 3's. Effective out to 125 yards or so but just not as much fun. I had a Bullberry barreled .218 Mashburn Contender carbine that I loved to shoot, got to thinking about shooting cast boolits in it, bought the mould, tinkered with all the variables, finally got good accuracy and decent velocity. Same tricks worked in a Bullberry .223 AI Contender and a Remington 700 22-250 but as I said I liked the "full case" powder charge that I could use with the Bee so focused on that. A "full case" of Varget in the .22-250 even with linotype boolits produced a stream of gray mist and never reached the target! But 10-13 grains of 2400 in the Bee worked very well. All my .22 barrels are 14" twist, with the .22's I like light, fast boolits, if I want to shoot ultra long range I have a slow twist .25/06AI and a 7MM STW for that work. The joy in the .22's is seeing pieces of squirrel raining down from the heavens in the 100-200 yard range. I have some other molds for longer, heavier .22 boolits but have not had good luck with them, my twist is too slow. Sorry no pics of targets but if you have the right size, cast 'em hard and gas check 'em, you can make them shoot if you have a good barrel. All mine have extremely short throats, specifically cut for short boolits like 40 Vmax.

[Marlin Junky]

Thank you for the input Larry. You know I agree with at least part of your philosophy; i.e. "...use a correctly designed bullet and to soften the acclelleration of the bullet with as slow a burning powder as practical." That's the kind of advice I would provide; however, why do you insists on sneaking that RPM bunk in every time you reply? RPM with respect to external ballistics is virtually mutually exclusive of gentle acceleration into the rifling. One can screw up a boolit entering the rifling just as easily with a resultant 50,000 RPM (at the muzzle) as they can with 140,000 RPM. I know, now you're going to say... that's why it's called a "threshold" but please don't ruin my thread.

Thanks,
MJ

BTW, while your twist rates (rifling pitches would be more appropriate terminology but the general firearms industry is lazy) mentioned above for the small bores make sense, I don't agree with your following statement:


Smaller capacity cartridges are much harder to get consistent accuracy from because they require a faster powder to attain that velocity.The reason I disagree is because relative burn rate depends on cartridge expansion ratio; i.e., Reloader 7 is a heck of a lot slower with respect to the 25/20 than it is (relatively) with respect to the 30-'06.

Again, please no more RPM **** in my threads.

Thank you,
MJ

[Marlin Junky]

jwmprock,

Thank you for the input on your .22's. I have considered a 222 with a 14" twist and am still looking. I was getting impatient and thought about trying a .243Win barrel for my Handi-Rifle and now I'm kind of gravitating toward a small .25 in a TC. I do have a 245496 that casts a nice boolit though. Problem with the small .25 is I have no idea about 257420's accuracy potential at 2000-2500 fps. In .25 I also have LBT-LFN's available to me (as long as Verl can produce them) in 90 and 100 grain weights.

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

I didn't "sneeak" anything into this thread. Your question was "Best boolits and twists for 2500+ fps ". I answered the question. Note all the other posts with successfull cast bullet accuracy at 25oo fps with your criteria in mind are using 14" twists. There is a reason for that.

BTW; I have a 25-20 and you, nor I, nor anyone else will get 2500 fps out of it with RL7.

The answer is there.

Larry Gibson

[Recluse]

however, why do you insists on sneaking that RPM bunk in every time you reply? RPM with respect to external ballistics is virtually mutually exclusive of gentle acceleration into the rifling. One can screw up a boolit entering the rifling just as easily with a resultant 50,000 RPM (at the muzzle) as they can with 140,000 RPM. I know, now you're going to say... that's why it's called a "threshold" but please don't ruin my thread.

I'm just shaking my head in complete and absolute disbelief over your audacity.

This is a forum about education and exchange of experience and ideas.

It's NOT "bunk" as you so disrepectfully refer to it.


Again, please no more RPM **** in my threads.

Thank you,
MJ

Easy fix for me. It's called the Ignore List.

:coffee:

[BCB]

Marlin Junkie,

This may not be pertinent to your post, but I did see the Lyman 287346 mentioned…

I use it in the 7-30 Waters that is 1-9” twist…

H-335 or WC-844 will produce 2141 fps and 2044 fps respectively with 31.0 and 32.5 grains, again respectively…

That is from a 14” barrel…

I can honestly rattle a life-sized groundhog silhouette at 200 yards with either combination—a good sandbag rest, of course…

The hits are well within a 2.5”-3.0” circle—maybe you need better accuracy, I don’t know…

Just threw this info in since I did see “287346”…

Good-luck…

BCB

[Marlin Junky]

MJ

I didn't "sneeak" anything into this thread. Your question was "Best boolits and twists for 2500+ fps ". I answered the question. Note all the other posts with successfull cast bullet accuracy at 25oo fps with your criteria in mind are using 14" twists. There is a reason for that.

Larry, you bet there's a reason for that... why do you think twist is part of my subject title? However, you and I look at twist in two different lights. You look at it from an exterior ballistics perspective and I look at it from a practical sense; i.e., one that imparts stress internally (inside the barrel) to the boolit. That's all there is to it and I'm simply, politely requesting that you refrain from mentioning RPM in threads that I create especially since you have an agenda (promoting your article). Also, I've backed away from arguing with you about RPM elsewhere (e.g., the latest would be in a thread about 30-30 accuracy from old Marlin 336es which you probably don't even own); therefore, I hope you can respect my request. I've given you several reasons why I think measuring boolit rotations in air diverts one's attention from more pertinent internal ballistic effects; however, you obiviously don't respect my opinions, otherwise you wouldn't respond to my posts with RPM **** (you fill it, I certainly don't want to be accused of being audacious by ill-tempered Texans :lol:) I don't want to place you on an ignore list because 1) I think that's rude; 2) Just because I don't agree with your reasoning doesn't mean I don't appreciate your experiences; and 3) you still have the ability to clutter the thread.


BTW; I have a 25-20 and you, nor I, nor anyone else will get 2500 fps out of it with RL7.

Larry GibsonYou're probably right about that Larry but I was simply using Reloader 7 to illustrate a point. According to QuickLoad, AA2200 can produce 2370 fps with the Lyman 257420 from a 24" barrel chambered in .256 Winchester at 32K PSI. When I mentioned the 25-20WCF I wasn't aware the .256 had a couple more grains capacity than the 25-20WCF, the former probably being a better choice.

Thank you,
MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junkie,

This may not be pertinent to your post, but I did see the Lyman 287346 mentioned…

I use it in the 7-30 Waters that is 1-9” twist…

H-335 or WC-844 will produce 2141 fps and 2044 fps respectively with 31.0 and 32.5 grains, again respectively…

That is from a 14” barrel…

I can honestly rattle a life-sized groundhog silhouette at 200 yards with either combination—a good sandbag rest, of course…

The hits are well within a 2.5”-3.0” circle—maybe you need better accuracy, I don’t know…

Just threw this info in since I did see “287346”…

Good-luck…

BCB

BCB,

Thank you... the 7-30 is a possibility even though it holds more powder than I was originally considering. Anything less than 1.5 MOA out to 200 yards is reasonable. Are you set up with a TC barrel? How hard are your boolits? A TC does open all kinds of doors and I don't have one yet.

Thanks again,
MJ

[leftiye]

Go to the 257 420??? 2500 fps no problemo. Shouldn't be a problem at longer distances if motating.

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

If you want accuracy you must consider the bullet in flight along with the intenal ballistics. I do and that's why I have repeated success. Other do and that's why they have repeated success. Not doing so is probably why you continue to search for accuracy at 2500 fps with a cast bullet without success.

BTW; I have owned 3 Marlin 336s with 4 groove rifling from before they went to Micro Groove. If those are the old 336es models you're talking about. They really don't do any better than any other 10" twist .30 cal with cast bullets. The 12" twist of the Winchester M94, especially the 24 and 26" models, is why I prefer that lever gun....it is much more cast bullet friendly in the 2300 - 2400 fps range than are Marlins with their 10" twists. That is considering both the internal and the external ballistics. Perhaps you could show us 40 consecutive shots at 100 and 200 yards at 2400 fps (I think that's what you've said the fps was, if not correct please restate) with your cast bullets out of your Marlin 30-30?

This is the 3rd thread you've started wanting to know how to get accuracy with cast bullets at 2500 fps. I've told you, as others have, how to do that. Trying to help you get accuracy at 2500 fps with a cast bullet is the only "agenda" I have on this thread BTW. Why don't you just try a cartridge with a 14" twist barrel......use a cast bullet design with long bearing surface (from bootom of case neck to the leade is ideal) and minimal nose(most Lovern designs work well if they fit from the case neck bottom to the leade)......cast the bullet of a malleable alloy with a BHN of 16 - 20.........size it correctly.....seat the GCs squarely.......lube with a quality lube of known performance.........use NS'd fire formed cases......and use as slow a burning powder that gives consistent ignition at close to 100% loading density. Do those things and you probably will find the accuracy you want (the accuracy I and others already consistently get) at 2400 - 2600 fps depending on the cartridge case capacity. You can do this with cartridges from the .22 Hornet upwards of the magnum .45 cals (if you can take the recoil from the heavier calibers) but up through .30 cal is probably the best for your stated criteria. The key is the 14" twist. It helps with less stress on the bullet internally and it controls the [censored] during flight. Stick with a 10" twist and you will continue to have the frustration of not attaining your goal of 2500 fps accuracy like that M70 '06 gave you. Try a 14" twist barrel, you just might like it, that is if you really want to get good, useable accuracy at 2500 fps with a cast bullet.

BTW; what "article" am I promoting?

Larry Gibson

PS; I've asked 2 questions there. Would appreciate an answer and I will only address the answers in any further posts on this thread. You have my advice on your question of this thread, no need to say it again.

[BCB]

BCB,

Thank you... the 7-30 is a possibility even though it holds more powder than I was originally considering. Anything less than 1.5 MOA out to 200 yards is reasonable. Are you set up with a TC barrel? How hard are your boolits? A TC does open all kinds of doors and I don't have one yet.

Thanks again,
MJ

The boolits are SAECO 6+ or a BHN of a tad over 9--wheel weights...

Some are shot "as cast" (0.2875") with only the check sized to 0.2852 in the sizing die when it is seated...

Alox...

But, the ones I completely size to 0.2852" (not a custom sizing die, just what they come out of it at), I use Carnuaba (sp) Red...

But, in all honesty, the Hornady V-Max 120's shoot a bit better than the cast ones...

The T/C Contender with the 7-30 Waters is completely Thompson/Center--nothing custom...

But, not disagreeing with Larry Gibson, I simply never got good accuracy with slow burners nor with really fast burners...

Trail Boss is the exception, but the "rainbow" trajectory limited this powder/load to less than 100 yards...

The 'scope is a Burris 3x-12x...

But, I think there might be better outfits than the T/C 14 incher for your needs...

Good-luck...BCB

[mainiac]

I shoot the 225438 @ 2400 f,p,s, in a stevens model 322 in 22 hornet. aggs about 1.5 inch @100 yards.Anything over 2400,accuracy goes away in a hurry!Ive tried and tried to get accuracy over 2400 with this rifle,finally gave up. Did get to 2700 once,and the gun was shooting about 7 inch groups,,,,no good.BTW, straight linotype boolit works the best.

[Larry Gibson]

BCB

Not a matter of disagreement; a matter of case capacity, bore ratio and bullet weight. The 7-30 Waters is in the same boat as the 30-30, needs medium burners to get above 2000 fps. You push the [censored] threshold with your loads in the 2050-2150 fps range. Going to a faster powder to increase the velocity probably is not going to be as good. Even with slower powders in the 7x57 that is about the highest velocity I've attained before accuracy goes south. It's not the 2500 fps MJ is asking for though. I'm not aware of any standard 7mm barrels made with other than 9 - 10" twist which is too bad as that bullet you use has real potential in a 13 - 14" twist, especially a longer barrel than you're using and perhaps in the 7-08 or 7x57 to use the slower powders.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

mainiac

That's the problem with the Hornet; getting above 2400 fps without having to go to a faster burning powder. With 14 & 16" twist barrels one would think the Hornet would do better again, case capacity limits the availabel powder use. I've run the gamit of the older Hornet powders (H110, 2400, 4227 and 5744) and not got much better results than you've got. I'm set to try some Lil'Gun and Bluedot in my Savage M40 with 14" twist using the 225462 bullet. I used to use lino in the Hornet also until I found that 80/20 lino/lead actual does better. The addtion of the lead seems to take the brittleness out of the alloy.

I was able to get 2500+ fps with 1 1/2 moa accuracy with that bullet out of an old M788 in .222 Rem with a 14" twist. I was able to use slower powders in that cartridge though. Same with my M700 22-250 with 14" twist. The Hornet with such consistent accuracy above 2400 fps is proving elusive.....maybe with the Lil'Gun:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I was looking at 17HMR's for general pest and perhaps coyote control and got to thinking about the near two-bit-a-shot price tag and now I'm wondering if their performance (accuracy and trajectory) could be matched by castings. I'm not looking for dramatic terminal ballistics, just a clean, humane kill on feathered and furred targets of opportunity out to a couple hundred yards.MJ

With all the controversy about certain things on this site.........your question could be considered quite provoking. The answer you asking for is YES. Higher velocity loading techniques are as different from normal smokeless reloading as smokelss and blackpowder techniques are. You and others here would be truly astounded if you knew what had already been done.

[mainiac]

mainiac

That's the problem with the Hornet; getting above 2400 fps without having to go to a faster burning powder. With 14 & 16" twist barrels one would think the Hornet would do better again, case capacity limits the availabel powder use. I've run the gamit of the older Hornet powders (H110, 2400, 4227 and 5744) and not got much better results than you've got. I'm set to try some Lil'Gun and Bluedot in my Savage M40 with 14" twist using the 225462 bullet. I used to use lino in the Hornet also until I found that 80/20 lino/lead actual does better. The addtion of the lead seems to take the brittleness out of the alloy.

I was able to get 2500+ fps with 1 1/2 moa accuracy with that bullet out of an old M788 in .222 Rem with a 14" twist. I was able to use slower powders in that cartridge though. Same with my M700 22-250 with 14" twist. The Hornet with such consistent accuracy above 2400 fps is proving elusive.....maybe with the Lil'Gun:drinks:

Larry Gibson

I remember trying the lil-gun option a few years ago.The accuracy wasnt there for me.No where near as good as h-4227.But,,just for giggles,lil-gun will post some impressive speeds,as well as shotgun patterns!

[Oddduck]

I've been running Lil-Gun in my .221 FB for several years now with excellent results. Just had to back them down from the impressive speed that it is capable of in the .221. Less seems to be more with Lil-Gun and accuracy. The rock chucks hate that gun.

[Larry Gibson]

I get impressive velocities out of the Hornet with Lil'Gun and 45 gr Jacketed bullets, exceptional accuracy also in the M40, Contender Carbine and #3 Ruger. Only looking at the 2500 - 2600 fps range for cast so I'll have to back off. Looking at the 55 gr 225462 in the 14" twist M40 as it should do fine in that twist.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

MJ, you might want to reconsider the TC barrels, especially any ordered from the Custom Shop. I hope you go with a different maker than TC.

I don't like their chambering and throating preferences, the first being too long in the neck and the second being nonexistent.

Cast bullet accuracy is very difficult to attain with these barrels in many instances (maybe not all, as I haven't tried them all). At their best, they shoot cast poorly.

The TC Custom shop people told me that all their 25 calibers barrels are 1-10, regardless of cartridge.

[Larry Gibson]

My TC 21" carbine 22 Hornet barrel has a 12" twist which limits the velocity level to 2100 - 2200 fps for accuracy with cast. Otherwise with jacketed bullets it shoots as well as can be expected; .6 - .8" ten shot groups at 100 yards are the norm with Lil'Gun and the Hornady 45 gr SP Hornet bullet.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

I've shot a number of jacketed bullets decently in some of my TC barrels; it's just that some of them are absolute dogs with cast bullets. Just my experience.

After chamber casting some of the barrels, it's easy to see why they don't like cast bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

35remington

I've heard that several times and don't disagree, just pointing out my own experience with my 10 and 21" Contender Hornet barrels.....guess I was lucky with mine.

Larry Gibson