Wad question & an idea

[Bear Claw]

Hello All

Yes Like a bad penny I am back.........

I have been going over all that you all have told me, and bought 99% of what I need ( well its order'd anyway ) I didn't order a wad punch and now wonder if I should have, So how many of you buy yours and how many make em??? John walters lives down the street from me so I can get veggie wads no prob.

My Idea is this everyone say's punch out the primers and drop brass in water/dert. mix to soak, some suggested a pope tool and other such tools, However the one's I found are x-pensive so how's this Idea....

Lee makes a hand press for $20.00 so get that and a univ. decaper die,, shoot you could even load at the range if ya wanted to.....

I know someone else has done this ( I cant be the 1st ) I was looking at the Lyman tong tool but was not sure if that was a good idea plus it cost's more

Tell me what ya think Best to all Bear Claw:drinks:

[wills]

Even with store bought wads you need a wad punch, to cut newspaper wads. The veggie wad goes on top of the powder. Compress. Then put the newspaper wad on top of the veggie wad. This keeps the veggie wad from sticking to the base of the boolit.

You can get a really DANDY decapper from James Hagar. He makes them. Mine was $20, +$4 postage. Call him, tell him what caliber it is for. He sends it to you. If you like it, send money, if not send it back. He also sells wad punches.

(PM's sent to sharpshooter and 45 2.1)

[SharpsShooter]

Lee makes a hand press for $20.00 so get that and a univ. decaper die,, shoot you could even load at the range if ya wanted to.....

That is one of the best ways best methods going. I've seen several folks do it that way or use a Lee Loader tool, which is dirt cheap to decap at the range.



Even with store bought wads you need a wad punch, to cut newspaper wads. The veggie wad goes on top of the powder. Compress. Then put the newspaper wad on top of the veggie wad. This keeps the veggie wad from sticking to the base of the boolit.

As usual Wills is spot on. The newspaper wad is a requirement in my mind also for top drawer accuracy. I also use a .030 card wad cut from tablet backs for the same purpose and it works well without taking up too much powder space.

SS

[SharpsShooter]

You can get a really DANDY decapper from James Hagar. He makes them. Mine was $20, +$4 postage. Call him, tell him what caliber it is for. He sends it to you. If you like it, send money, if not send it back. He also sells wad punches

Don't mean to hi-jack the thread, but do you have his contact information?

SS

[45 2.1]

You can get a really DANDY decapper from James Hagar. He makes them. Mine was $20, +$4 postage. Call him, tell him what caliber it is for. He sends it to you. If you like it, send money, if not send it back. He also sells wad punches

I would also like the contact info.

[montana_charlie]

Even with store bought wads you need a wad punch, to cut newspaper wads.
Don't forget the cigarette paper wad over the primer hole, the wax paper wads for the lube cookie, and the felt wads for the squib loads.

Then there are the sponge wads needed to build those bore pigs...
CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

MC,

Is right a punch press mounted one is very handy for all kinda experiments in the wild world of wads and different materials.

Once had good friend try some type of gasket material, called rubber Celulos? I got about 3 dozen from him. They shot lights out in my 45-70 and 110. The company that suplied the material was a local auto parts store they went out of business and we lost the suplier.

They worked very well, every bit as good as poly and Perhaps??????[smilie=1: A but more Period correct?


I use my punch to make primer wads-over powder wads and over powder paper wads.

Keep on punching!:drinks:

Kenny Wasserburger

[wills]

More than one kind of wad punch
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,242.html

[4060MAY]

I believe Fred Cornell makes the press mounted punch.

been using mine since 1990, both for poly, paper, and gasket material aka fiber wads

The best one for the job, also costs more.

Buy the best and never look back

[Bear Claw]

Don't forget the cigarette paper wad over the primer hole, the wax paper wads for the lube cookie, and the felt wads for the squib loads.

Then there are the sponge wads needed to build those bore pigs...
CM

AWWW Crap......... Looks like I gota lot more ta learn:confused: :confused:

[Bear Claw]

Why in H*&& do I put a wad over the primer hole????& squib loads ????????????

Are you guy's messin with me!!!????

[wills]

Interesting, I had not heard about the cigarette paper over primer wads. I have heard about newspaper over primer wads. For what it is worth, Bear Claw, there are two schools of thought on the over primer wads, and I am not advocating either of them. One school contends that they prevent granules of powder from clogging the flash hole and contribute to uniform ignition; the other school says they don’t do any good.

Now, if your boolits hold sufficient lube, you may not need a grease cookie.

[Bear Claw]

Well I did go with SPG and pan lube, Sharpshooter is gona send me some boolits ta try, after I slug the bore I will order a mould ot two, and that brings up another question, Do I size em or shoot as cast Ie: if I buy a Lyman 457xxx 400 to 500 gr will it cast a couple thousands over like my other moulds... ( crap I know this ):confused: My 311644 for my 03 & 03a3 must size down to .308 or I get patterns instead of groups,,,, Never mind " I"ve Lost my mind ":roll:

[wills]

http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/texasborepigs.msnw

For what it is worth, Bear Claw, there are two schools of thought on sizing, and I am not advocating either of them. One school contends that it contributes to accuracy; the other school says it doesn't.

[bigborefan]

On the Fred Cornell press mounted press, does it cut newspaper & waxpaper wads cleanly? I heard that it doesn't do a good job on the thinner materials. Also, is that the same press punch sold by Buffalo Arms?

[madcaster]

A leather punch converted to drill press use,and "FlexAll",which you may be able to get scraps at a publishing company,it is used as BIBLE covers.
If you luck up and find some,best stock up!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The Cornell punch works very well for newsprint or I use Mead Tracing paper instead for my primer wads.

Es's of 5 fps and Sd's of 2 with them. Works very well for me.

Kenny Wasserburger

[bigborefan]

Thanks Kenny, much appreciated.

[montana_charlie]

On the Fred Cornell press mounted press, does it cut newspaper & waxpaper wads cleanly?
Because you asked, I tried wax paper in mine. It is the one from Buffalo Arms (and according to 4060MAY it is the Fred Cornell punch).

It wasn't mounted in the press, so I just operated it with my thumb and it did fine on the wax paper. Now, admittedly, mine is brand new...but it also did a fine job on Saran Wrap!
You can't get a much thinner material than that.

It looks like you came to distrust the Fred Cornell punch after reading a post by Smokin, over on the Shiloh forum.
Read that again. He said that when you punch enough material for the wads to start appearing at the top, they tend to drift around...probably all over his floor.

Pay attention and collect them as they come up, and you'll be fine.

He didn't say that the punch won't cut thin materials.
CM

[longhorn]

Wills, I'm not sure you're helping the guy.....'course, I'm not advocating either possibility

[4060MAY]

MC
if you punch poly, they stack up for about 10, then they have to be removed

when I punch paper, and i use erasable bond, folded over to punch 4-6 at a time

you must remove them after 3-4 punches or the seal of the paper on the punch acts

like a piston and shoots the paper punchouts all over the floor.

all you have to do is pay attention. I have 3 of Fred's punches, .38, .40, .45

all have been very servicable, bought them from Fred personally.

[Boz330]

BC, I use newsprint over my primer as well and I thought that it sounded rediculous. But when I tried it my groups were smaller and I went back several times and it deffinately makes a difference in my gun. This BP stuff isn't quite as simple as you thought ehh? I had the same revelation when I got into it.
Kenny thanks for the tip on the tracing paper, I'll have to give that a try.

Bob

[wills]

Wills, I'm not sure you're helping the guy.....'course, I'm not advocating either possibility

For what it is worth, Longhorn, there are two schools of thought on helpful advice, and I am not advocating either of them. One school contends there is only one right way to do anything; the other school says there is the other right way; and the other school says your results will tell you when you have it right; and the other school tells you consider all the options.

My own theory, and I am not advocating it, is if I start something new I try to keep it simple. To draw an analogy, when people learn to play the piano, they start with Chopsticks, not Chopin

[Bear Claw]

Leave it to a Texican,,,,,, They went thata way,,, batteries not included,,,,your results may vary,,,,,,, past preformance is no indicator of future outcome,,,,,I am not a doctor but I play one on TV,,,,,,I stayed at the Holiday inn,,,,,,,
Remember the Alamo:confused:

It's ok wills I got ya cover'd:Fire: :drinks: Bear Claw

[Bear Claw]

BC, I use newsprint over my primer as well and I thought that it sounded rediculous. But when I tried it my groups were smaller and I went back several times and it deffinately makes a difference in my gun. This BP stuff isn't quite as simple as you thought ehh? I had the same revelation when I got into it.
Kenny thanks for the tip on the tracing paper, I'll have to give that a try.

Bob

Thanks Boz,, thought my chain was gettin pulled a little, and yep I gota lot to learn:drinks:

[wills]

Nope not putting you on, everything everyone is telling you is valid, although some of it may be contradictory. What works in one rifle will not necessarily work in another rifle.

[Bear Claw]

I understand,, I was just havin a little fun on you,,,no hard fellins

[montana_charlie]

Bear Claw,
Ever since I first saw your 'tag line' about the grizzly, I have been prompted to tell you this story. As this discussion seems to be winding down, now is as good a time as any, I guess.
I am one who is not slow to pull somebody's leg, but that isn't the case, this time.

My great-great grand daddy was a Cherokee named Lum Nail, and during the years when my grandmother was a young girl, he call Benton County Arkansas his 'home'.
But, he wasn't around much, because he spent most of those years trapping beaver out West.
He would come home every couple of years, sell any pelts he had, and spend some time with the family.

'Grampa Lum' had a large black dog that went everywhere with him, and he wasn't a friendly one. There was a doghouse built out behind the house my grandmother lived in, and Lum would put his 'beaver money' in there...and his dog kept it safe.

Lum named this 'companion' after a man he knew...a man he admired and also called a friend. The dog's name was Bridger.

For some reason, I thought you might find that interesting...
CM

[SharpsShooter]

Bear Claw

Your boolits went out via priority mail this afternoon. You should have them in hand by Friday I'd imagine. Start simple and worry about flash hole wads later. Get that thing shooting with some of these

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/Lyman457125534grNASALube.jpg


And then you will want to try ...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/PPLoaded.jpg


Good Luck


SS

[Rambunctious]

CM,

Makes me wonder if he knew Jim Bridger, of Bozeman Trail fame.

[longhorn]

Speaking of helpful advice, has anyone mentioned indexing primers yet?

[Dale53]

The Fred Cornell punch is the way to go if you can afford it. I have had them for three calibers for several years and several thousand wads.

YOU can solve the "mess" when using them. Take a milk jug (regular gallon plastic one) and cut the bottom off about 2" up from the bottom. Kind of makes an ugly square bowl. Take a knife and cut an "X" in the bottom near one corner. Press the jug over the die (the "X" has 1"-1.5" legs). The tension from the "X" will hold the bowl around the die and collect all of the wads. Empty when necessary to keep them off the floor. The "bowl" is flexible enough to allow you to run strips of wad material longer than the width of the bowl through the die.

Buffalo Arms sells the material for wads. LDPE is my choice in .060" thickness. If you want to be more traditional, "vegetable fiber" in the same thickness is nearly as good (since they are biodegradable, some ranges insist on it). You can buy the plastic (LDPE) locally from a plastics supplier but you'll probably have to buy more than you want. The "veggie fiber" is supposed to be auto gasket material.

Good luck!

Dale53

[bigborefan]

You guys convinced me. I ordered a Cornell punch from Buffalo Arms yesterday along with a few other things. Thanks to all.

[montana_charlie]

You guys convinced me. I ordered a Cornell punch from Buffalo Arms.
You actually need two of them. Over primer wads work better if they are a caliber smaller than your bullets.
CM

[Bear Claw]

Hello

Sharpshooter::: Thank you very much, If I can do anything for you just let me know........

Dale53:::: thank you as well,, I had to go cheap, I got the hammer punch and matt

CM::::::: Interesting story, All my relitives on my Dad's side are Indian " Yeah I"m a half breed" the name Nail sounds familiar, saw it in print somwhere next to my Great great Grandmothers name Her's was Anna Drum, She was Shawnee- Delaware adopted by the Cherokee's in and around Arkansas & oklahoma, last place she was known to have lived was Venita Okla. & she is buried in an Indian cemetary in Miami Okla... somewhere down the line all the others moved to New Mexico..........:drinks:

[Dale53]

Quick tip when using the Cornell wad punch. If the material (whether LDPE or Vegetable fiber) is cut in strips it is much easier and faster to use. Depending on your caliber (I'll let YOU figure this out) I size my material strips based on two rows of bullets (one row on each side of the strip) with enough material between them to get nice perfect wads. Then, using a straight edge, use a quilters rotary knife to cut the material. NOTHING cuts as nicely. You can get them from any fabric store that caters to quilters. The knife looks like a pizza cutter but is a razor. They normally come with extra blades. They cost aoubt $12 or $14 dollars. They sure make the job easier.

if you live in the boondocks, try the internet. Online stores that cater to quilters will have them.

They also have a cutting surface. Since my wife already has all of that stuff and is really good with a knife, I let her do it for me[smilie=1:. After all, wives need to feel needed:-D :-D :-D

Dale53

[wills]

Speaking of helpful advice, has anyone mentioned indexing primers yet?

He’ll need a magnifying glass to see the little bitty letters, if he wants to index those primers.

[montana_charlie]

I index my primers very religiously. I make sure all of the cups point the same way.
Can't remember right now if that's in or out...but it will come to me.
CM

[boommer]

I dont know guys but with the cra##$%%@% you guys are throwing at him BEAR CLAW is going to screwed up before he gets started let him prime it powder it wad it
seat it !! he really needs to warm up too to the rifle and see what these big black smokey belchers are like Idont know but get the basics down first then start working on variables because what works for one might not for another. IF you
start a load development you need to start with strong basic concepts then tweak
it from there I understand we are all trying to help and bear claw is asking for some
ideas But I feel you dont need witches brews to start out with I dont want to tick anybody off here but these are some of my thoughts this is just black a lot of variables on the basics !

[montana_charlie]

I dunno, boomer.

I keep a witch in a teabag (she likes it not).
And always have the water hot.
Just hate to start up something new.
Without a sip of witch's brew.

[SharpsShooter]

Nah, Bear Claw will be fine. I figure he will start with the straightforward stuff and be in good shape with it until he gets the urge to tinker and reinvent the wheel. A well respected gunsmith at a shoot a year or two ago said "These guys have run off the ends of the earth trying to make these guns shoot like bench rest rifles and it has taken the fun out of it entirely." I tend to agree. Powder, wad and ball worked 100+ years ago...don't see why it won't work now.


SS

[Boz330]

Powder, wad and ball worked 100+ years ago...don't see why it won't work now.

The animals that they were shooting at were one heck of a bunch biigger than the little steel critters that we shoot at now.:???: And you know that the guys that were shooting at Creedmore 130 years ago were probably just as picky as the good shooters of today. Then there is us also ran's. To me the quest is part of the fun, and when something works there is the self satisfaction of "the plan coming together".

Just enjoy,

Bob

[boommer]

montana charlie IGOTS'TA ASSK YOU THIS DID YOU GET YOUR TEABAG BEFORE YOU JOINED THE BLACK CULT!! OR AFTER !
BOZ330 you are 100% it is the chase but if you are chasing 5 rabbits you should
focus on one until it runs into the hole ! ( OLD INDIAN SAYING )

Its all in fun here just something to think about I think?

[jerrold]

Interesting thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you get a cigarette paper wad down a 45 by 2.4 45/90 and know it didn't go off to the side.

[SharpsShooter]

Interesting thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you get a cigarette paper wad down a 45 by 2.4 45/90 and know it didn't go off to the side.

I personally do not use them, but have been told by others who do that if you cut them slightly less than case diameter, you can drop them in and they will fall to the bottom and be visible in the flash hole if you hold up the case to inspect the bottom. I'd venture you could simply use a short wooden dowel or like object to press them down if needed.

The pro's though just toss one up in the air and catch it with the case mouth in a graceful, sweeping motion that utilizes the force of the air to press it to the bottom of the case, seating the wad perfectly each time. [smilie=1: In this case (pardon the pun) technique is everything. Showoffs like to demonstrate this method while standing under a ceiling fan as it provides an aerobic workout too while they attempt to capture the paper discs wafting around in the breeze, but this is not reccomended for the novice or the faint of heart


SS

[John Boy]

Bear Claw ... the gents have really provided you with a ton of good information. How's your credit card holding up? [smilie=1:

You might be interested in these sources for wad material ...

Source for sheets of LDPE
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=72&product%5Fid=10342

Source for Felt
http://www.durofelt.com/products.html
(Asha evens cuts the felt in strips now for us BP shooters) - if you don't to buy it by the yard

And don't poo poo using felt for your wads. Ned Roberts started the concept that never really caught on with BPCR shooters. I've had excellent groups out to 600yds using felt. And if you venture into Paper Patch bullets and your shooting 400 grainers - felt wads work nice as spacers to obtain your reload OAL

Hint for them paper wads over the flash hole - 38-55 papers flutter down and lay flat in a 45-70

[Kenny Wasserburger]

38 cal wads have a nasty tendency to to turn in the case when powder is drop tubed. The grains bouncing down flip them on edge sometimes.


Take 5 cases put the 38 cal wads in leave the primer out drop tube your powder at least 1 or 2 will have turned wads powder will come out of the flash hole.

I cut mine with the 45 cal punch insert them with a dowel tool I made some years ago push them to the bottom and give the dowel a slight twist. They fit tight in the bottom of the case. Some will turn on you no mater what I have a smile needle file that i use to fish the wad over and get it off the case wall, then seat with my dowel.

Kenny Wasserburger

[mold maker]

While reading about over primer wads, the thought came to me about using "Niter Paper" cut as over powder wad.
Would it also help with even powder ignition?

[drcook]

Well, this is bringing back an old thread. What do you mean by "niter paper" ? Some folks use over primer wads in the primer cup so they can use L.P. primers and take up the space so they don't hammer the breech block on ignition.

Some folks use coffee filter paper wads in the case as it will burn up. You would need a thicker paper to soften the flame front.

I see that using cigarette paper wads was mentioned back in the posts from a few years ago. I have been doing that for the last 5 or 6 years. The only thing it does is keep powder chunks out of the flash hole so that each cartridge is going off like the last.

I use a 375 dia cig paper wad and just drop it and it will fit into the radius at the bottom of the case

[longhorn]

The thread that won't die! "Niter" paper? "Nitrated," maybe? Now the home chemistry and basement explosions start.............

[StrawHat]

The thread that won't die! "Niter" paper? "Nitrated," maybe? Now the home chemistry and basement explosions start.............

You say that like it is a bad thing!:kidding:

[kokomokid]

Thanks Kenny, I was quite happy dropping .35 cal filter paper wads in my 40/65 cases. Now I will have to recheck this.

[bigted]

my 2 cents here. i also balked at the price of some stuff but in the end i forked out the saved dollars for the good stuff.

good stuff is the "pope" style de-capper with the pocket scraper on 1 handle and the priming feature on top at buff arms.

the wad cutter that fits my rcbs press is the shis-nis...also from buff arms...things have punched my wads from news paper to .080 inch tablet backing...great job with everything it punches...only thing is that if not carfull like CM states...wads will spill over and go everywhere...got to keep up with the punched wads as they come out the top.

both these items are around 100 dollars each...sounds expensive till you use em. my most favorite is the pop style deprime/scraper/prime installer tool...i now have three and have discovered that the shell holder on top is rcbs so my 45-70 turned into a .458 win mag and i use the 45 3.1/4 tool for all 45 straight wall cart's...the third is a 38-55 tool. these are so much fun that i mostly use em for all my primer work now and just relax in the knowledge that the tool is a peice of art and its so much fun to use that it is a hoot in itself to use.

im finding out that if i spend the higher bucks the first time im a lot better off...it is hard to put the poorboy state of mind away tho...im better off to save for the wanted item instead of trying to be... "just as good as"...the same with rifles but i didnt just say that...oops...LOL

there is nothing 'production' about anything blackpowder in my book so the old way is often near romance in action for me from casting to building my lube to papering boolits to loading with all the old style stuff and finally the shooting of these old style rifles and cartridges...have a hoot!!!

[.22-10-45]

Hello, bigted. Your right about "nothing production" in black powder loading..or shooting! I recently got back to the Holy Black..after purchasing two old timers. When I was last out with the Ballard No.3 .25-25 Stevens..I had whole range to myself..I got into a "zone" where time just seemed to stand still. Fire round..extract & de-prime with pope-style tool..drop case in soapy water at feet...run 1 barely damp patch thru..shoot next thru wet bore..repeat! Took me over 3 hrs. to shoot 60 rnds. But at end of day..I was tired..but I was relaxed!
When I was shooting original British proofed rolling block Mid-Range in .40-70..fellow few benches down asked..do you have to shoot black in that?...as if I was handicaping myself by using an inferior product! first outing with that rifle..shooting honest 1" groups at 100yds. with Brooks 330gr. Creedmoor & Swiss 1 1/2 FG!

[bigted]

LOL...i get a kick outta the others at the range when i go there. i observe their targets with the modern stuff and most do poorer then my bp oldie look-a-likes shooting my bp thru clouds of smoke and sparks shooting from the muzzle along with the shreds of paper that gently settle to the ground.

when i break out the greesers tho i can hear some muttering down the line as they settle into the 1 to 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. my favorite is the 38-55 with the unertl scope that will bundle thumbnail sized groups. this settles the questions and i dont get beat to death with it.

finally when ive had all the fun a normal feller should have ... i break out the 120 sharps. that is a rifle i shoot while standing on me own wobbly feet as the recoil has a better chance to spin me a bit rather then try to absorb the recoil with my shoulder. what a hoot with the copious amount of smoke and the large thunder of a boom that makes all look my way with wonder and unasked questions.

i largely have a good time with my pope style tool while punching out the primers and scraping the primer hole and dunking them into the soapy water for the sloshing ride home. this is the time when a timid few will come over and ask what the heck i shoot. we always have new shooters at the range with the army base close by and the turn-around they have. they mostly shower the range with the black rifles that used to turn my crank as well...so my slow spurting sootburners are always a glance at least with few able to work up the unasked questions that their group would have.

as for the primer wads i also tryed them and used my 38 cal punch to make smaller wads....er thin over primer sheets...and they settle down in the case easy as can be...now that kenny raised the question tho i wonder if they all stayed flat when the powder slid down the tube. gonna have to experiment with this to find out if that may have been the problem with my erlier experiments with the primer wads.