Dirty bore

[starmac]

I am ashamed to admit it, but I had my two muzzle loaders out to shoot about 3 months ago and didn't clean them. I have always cleaned them the day I shot them as I had heard the horror stories. Now I have a horror story of my own, by my own making.

Here is what I have done to the one. I used hot soapy water and a copper brush and then patches, I went and got a stainless brush and have switched to it for a few strokes then patch, I keep going back and forth, between the brush and patch.

Is there anything else I need to do.

I know some of you have bound to have purchased guns like this, what have you done to get them back in the best shape possible.

Thanks

[10 ga]

You didn't say what kind of guns they are. More info is a help in addressing your problem. Knowing the type, make, calibre, domestic or foreign mfg., hammer gun or inline, ignition system, removeable breechplug or no, typical charge, bp or sub, conical, sabot & bullet, type of patch and ball used, SS or blue steel, etc.. etc.. will help determine the process to take to get back in shape. Worst case, barrel shot need new gun. Best case a little lapping/shooting and all may be well. Middle case, barrel ruined but you can get a Green mountain to drop in and good to go.

I suggest you load a patched roundball. Before loading drill a small hole in the top of the roundball to make it easier to pull with your ball puller. After loading use your ball puller to pull the ball out. Look at the patch. If it is ripped, torn or cut then you need to lap the barrel. Even if the patch is not cut or ripped bore may be rough. How did it feel loading? Then shoot shoot some patched roundballs with light loads and find the patches and look at them. If they are cut and mangled you may still need to lap the barrel some more. I have gotten a bunch of abused ML back to decent shooting form this way. However you will probably be restricted to patched roundball or sabot & bullet with the rough bore. OH yeah, rough bores foul a lot easier and faster then slick bores.

I can make more suggestions when I know more about the gun.

All may not be lost.

Best, 10 ga

[starmac]

It is foreign made (italy) traditional percussion. Cabellas hawkin. I shoot round balls and 435 grain thompson maxi hunters, both using pyrodex rs.
It is 54 caliber. I have never had the breech plug out, but I'm sure it can be taken out.
It looked terrible when I first looked in it, but is not looking bad as far as I can see (I don't have a bore light).

I guess I am asking what your method of cleaning would be and if you would use anything besides soap and hot water, brushes and patches.

Oh and what would you recommend putting in it when I get the patches completely clean.

[docone31]

Another alternative is to go to the range. From there, fire a few off. If the patches grab in places, perhaps, you can use valve lapping compound instead of lube, then use regular lube.
I have done that multiple times and my bores are quite friendly now. I have used R.E.A.L.s with valve compound instead of lube. I have fired five rounds, then went to regular lube.
At home, clean up is a snap!
They are pretty tough rifles.

[405]

I know some of you have bound to have purchased guns like this, what have you done to get them back in the best shape possible.

Thanks

Well, that's why I carry a drop in bore light if any possibility of running across a used ML. I don't look twice at one with a rough bore.

You, can try fire lapping as has been suggested or hand lapping. Hand lapping just takes a lot of elbow grease. Either method might help, the gun might even shoot OK but there's no bringing a bore back to full potential once damaged.... short of re-boring/rifling or installing a liner.

[10 ga]

Starmac, Can probably get you going again w/o too much trouble. I have 2 of those Cabellas Hawken types and they are both shooters. One is a .50 with 1/60 twist and one is a .58 with 1/48 twist and shoot mostly PRB in both.

To get back to gettin you shooting again. Normally for cleaning I use cold water and alcohol on my BP guns. Then finish by heating the barrels with boiling water to dry them out. I use a lot of patches and copper/brass/SS brushes too, whatever I have. Standard cleaning with the lapping with a patch should get you off to a good start.

Clean the bore as good as you can. Then take a tough patch like pillow ticking or linen and wrap it around a copper or brass brush for your rifle. Coat the patch with abrasive and then use full length strokes all the way up and down the barrel, ie.. in the muzzle and all the way to the bottom in one motion. Then pull all the way out in one motion. Do this at least 50 times w/o changing the patch. If you use the valve lapping compound as per dcone31 the compound grit gets finer as you use it, that is good, you are polishing more than cutting. After the 50 strokes in/out, that is 100 passes over the bore, clean the bore real good and lube it. Load PRB and see how it feels. If feels smooth enough then shoot the PRB and check patch. Repeat as necessary.

If you want to try firelapping just put the abrasive on the patch and shoot prb with light, 25-30 gr. load, clean and check bore. Repeat as necessary.

I prefer to have more control over the results so I hand lap only. Firelapping can get you started and if you use it only do 1 shot and clean and check thoroughly after each. Then handlap to polish the bore. Any lapping can damage the bore but firelapping is much more likely to cause damage then hand lapping, but you really don't have much to lose.

I have used the valve grinding compound but prefer the real lapping abrasive. Especially since you can use the progressively finer grits to really polish the bore, but I don't think you'll be able to do that, so the valve compound will probably be OK. Shooting regular PRBs will eventually polish it up good as it'll get.

Green Mountain does drop in barrels for those Cabellas guns. So now you have an excuse for a new barrel.

You may have a problem getting your nipple out if it is badly corroded. I suggest using PB Blaster or other type of penetrating oil to help loosen it up. You may end up having to get nipples with oversize thread if that gets boogered up. That would be another thread but do check it.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Best, 10 ga

[mooman76]

I'd take it out and shoot it before I did anything else. That's after it is clean of coarse. No since jumping to conclusions til you know how good or bad it is. Shooting it will clean some of the gunk out. I also never put my guns away until I clean them first because I know I would forget.

[starmac]

Thanks 10 guage, and everybody else, I don't think it was near as bad as I feared. What I can see looks good, and I done as suggested with a ball and patch. A .530 ball and .005 patch looked and felt good, I then ran one with a .018 patch, these are too thick, you about have to hammer them down a clean bore. The patch when I finally got it out looked good.

The nipple and cleanout screw came out easy also. So I think I lucked out.
I am not so lucky on the other one, a TC scout My cleaning rod is stuck solid in it. I will be going to the gunsmith in the morning and see if he can remove the breech plug.

As soon as these 30 below temps lets up a little I will shoot them and see where I need to go from there.

Have you used a green mountain barrel, If so do they come with a new breech plug. Mine is a lefty, so the plug is different.

[waksupi]

Thanks 10 guage, and everybody else, I don't think it was near as bad as I feared. What I can see looks good, and I done as suggested with a ball and patch. A .530 ball and .005 patch looked and felt good, I then ran one with a .018 patch, these are too thick, you about have to hammer them down a clean bore. The patch when I finally got it out looked good.

The nipple and cleanout screw came out easy also. So I think I lucked out.
I am not so lucky on the other one, a TC scout My cleaning rod is stuck solid in it. I will be going to the gunsmith in the morning and see if he can remove the breech plug.

As soon as these 30 below temps lets up a little I will shoot them and see where I need to go from there.

Have you used a green mountain barrel, If so do they come with a new breech plug. Mine is a lefty, so the plug is different.

Mac, try putting some liquid cleaner down the bore to soak overnight, to try and loosen the rod before taking it to the gun smith.

[starmac]

What type of liquid cleaner.

[451 Pete]

:coffeecomStarmac,
A lot of good info. from 10 ga. here. In reference to his post I would think any good bore cleaner would work. A bore light can be just a 38 or 357 empty nickle case and a good flashlight to let you see what is down there. I like the small LED lights I can get at the local sporting goods shop that they use for puting inside of a night fishing bobber. ( Don't know how many of these you will find with 30 below temps ... ) A couple of things to add. I use a nickle anti seize on clean out screws and nipples. The smallest tube you can buy at the auto parts is a lifetime supply. Since I started using this I have never had a nipple lock up or any problem with a clean out screw coming out. I also run a saturated patch with either Ballistol or Cleanzoil down the bore after cleaning as a rust inhibitor. Use a dry patch to clean out any excess before shooting it the next time.

Good luck and let us know how you make out ..... Pete

[waksupi]

What type of liquid cleaner.

Most any type. I don't like plain water, prefer something with a soluble oil or a commercial BP cleaner. If you happen to not be able to get it out after this treatment, the water could possibly put a rust ring in the barrel before you got the rod removed.

[starmac]

I soaked it overnight with marvel mystery oil, that didn't work at all, I have it soaking in a product called evaporust now, I am crossing my fingers. lol

It is my fault, I royally screwed up to start with on this one. I ran a patch down it before running a brush, I don't thing it is so much rust holding it as just the build up.

I will try this rust remover and flush it a couple times today, if that doesn't get it. I will probably go get the breech plug removed..

[excess650]

Worst case scenario is that the barrel would have to be replaced or rebored. This latter option might be an improvement over what you have.

I would have suggested that you put Kroil or PB Blaster in the bore to get the stuck rod/jag/patch out. Of course, when I was a teenager many moons ago, I had a rod stuck, removed the rod and left the jag and patch, and shot it out!:roll:

[starmac]

I don't know of any barrel replacement for the scout, and it is a 54, so I doubt it could go any bigger. I think a sleeve might could be an option, pricewise I'm not sure it would be feasible though.

The evaporust has at least leaked past the cleaning jag, so it might break it loose.

[451 Pete]

starmac,

The Scout can always go to the gunsmith for removing the breech plug / nipple. I don't know how that particular rifle would work out trying to reline the barrel. The cost probably would equal what the gun is worth..... not sure. Just a guess but I figure labor and a liner is at least a couple hundred bucks on the cheap side.

Pete

[starmac]

I took the nipple out, it was no problem, but need a barrel vice to get the breech plug out.

[starmac]

If I have to get it re sleeved, would it be possible to go down in caliber to say a 32 or 36.
If I had to spend the bucks for it, it would be worth more to have a unique rabbit gun.
I can always buy another 54.
I am thinking it might not work with the breech plug though.

[451 Pete]

starmac,
I'm not too sure on how well the breech nipple set up would work for re- sleeving with that rifle either. Hopefully get it apart and with luck the bore cleans up and your back in business. Hopefully save the money from labor and re-lining and put it twards that lefty you have been wanting.

Pete

[starmac]

I am not particularly needing or wanting another lefty, That old cheap cabellas, has always shot as good as I can, and the animals don't know it is a cheap gun.

I have never hunted with the scout, actually only played with it the one time. i just think it would make a good knock about gun to carry on the fourwheeler. If it is possible to drop it down to 36 caliber it would be a neat bunny gun, to carry on the wheeler or snowmobile. I have it in my mind that itwouldn't work with the breechplug though.

Lots of folks think the nipple is the breech plug, but it isn't. It just has a big ugly one of a kind nipple, that is kind of expensive for a nipple, but is suppose to last a long time too.

[750k2]

What is on the end of the cleaning rod - a brush?
Vice grips and a hammer - you might need a second set of hands.
And maybe a new rod after - use a leather bushing on anything that
might take dent.

[starmac]

It has a cleaning jag( i think that is the right term) and a patch. I have put enough stuff that I am afraid of pulling the threads loose, and have already wrecked the rod with vice grips. lol

[duke76]

Make or aquire something that will screw into the nipple and adapt that to a grease zerk and pump grease to push the ramrod out kinda messy but will work, I got my Zouave ramrod stuck last week and I made one of these but tried a slidehammer on a vise grip and it came right out so I didnt have to use the grease tube, I pulled and pulled on that ram rod but it wouldnt budge it worked a lot bettr than I ever expected also track of the wolf sells a ram rod puller but I have never used one of them so I cant tell you how it would work, Todd

[starmac]

I wish the grease cert would have worked, but the design of the scout breechplug doesn't allow it. I just got it out, so thanks everyone for all the suggestions.
Now the work starts to see what I have done. lol

[725]

Lap it with Flitz. Few hundred passes with a tight wad covered in Flitz. If it's really wrecked, have Bob Hoyt re-bore it to something else. ie., .58 or .60 I've got one of Bob's re-bore jobs and it's fantastic. My buddy has 5 or 6.

[starmac]

725 can a 54 be bored to a 58 or does it have to be larger. I don't like the twist rate so a larger bore wouldn't upset me at all.

These have a round tapered barrel, so I'm not sure there is enough meat for them to do it anyway.

This bore wasn't pristeen to start with and I have only fired it a few times. I never got a good load worked up for it, so I don't know what it was capable of to start with.

[mooman76]

Our local pawn shop has a scout in 54. I saw it there last week after seeing it a month ago. I thought for sure it would be gone for $229.

[451 Pete]

starmac,
OK, the three choices the way I see it. 1.) barrel liner to what ever cal. if it will work, 2.) possible rebore to larger cal. ( .54 to .58 is not very much ) if doable , 3.) De - breech it and clean up what you have and hope it is not in too bad of shape to shoot straight.

If it was a side hammer you definitely could do either of the first two but as a inline action with the removable breech plug I am not so sure. Also when you consider the cost factor of either recutting the barrel to a larger cal. or the cost of a barrel liner and the labor to install it, it just may not be worth it. The local shop here had a TC Scout like yours last week and it looked to be in pretty good condition. They were only asking $250 for it. You could very well end up spending more than that on either of the first two options. There comes a time when you are puting more into the gun than it would be worth. If it was " dads gun " or held a sentimental value then the $$ would not be relevant, but I don't think that is the case here.

You said that the other rifle cleaned up pretty well so maybe this one will too. If it was mine I would go for the third choice and if the barrel doesn't clean up I would keep my eye out for someone parting out another Scout that had a good barrel for sale.

Just my thoughts .... Pete

[starmac]

The only reason I would consider relining the bore, would be to go to a small caliber, If it doesn't shoot well after I finish with it, I would consider boring to 58, if they can change the rifling. The scouts have either a 1 in 20 or at some point they changed to 1 in 32, I believe. I'm not into sabots, so If I could change it to something that was never offered in the scout, spending the money wouldn't be so bad. lol

[stronics]

duke76
As far a ideas go, the grease zert has to be one of the very best I've heard. I'm going to file that where I won't forget it.
Thanks
David

[10 ga]

Star, If you just want a bunny buster then polish out the rifleing on that Scout and make it a smooth bore. Then just shoot a wad of shot at the bunnies and birds. Should be good out to 25/30 yds. Also use a prb for bigger stuff up close. For the prb you could just use the same .530 rb and a heavy or double patch. It is easy enough to polish out the rifleing, just set up with the rod and patch on a brush setup and load up with the valve grinding compound and stick it on a 3/8 power drill and go to work. Very cheap to do. to load just use newspaper and make a tamper that fits the bore and tamp in a thick wad over the powder and a thin wad over the shot. Keep us updated. Best, 10 ga

[725]

starmac-
Yes the .54 can be made into a .58, or .60. .........and Bob Hoyt is the guy to do it. He did my .50 into a .60 smooth bore, which I shot for a year or two (It did great with a patched round ball & shot). Then I sent it to him again and he rifled it to a .60 rifle (1 - 60 twist). I like it even better now. The finish with his work gives a better barrel than when it was new from the factory. If I ever run into another T/C .50 for the right price, the first thing I'll do is send it to him re-cut to a larger caliber and have it finished with the right twist for round balls. The 1 - 48 compromise is OK and I've shot some great groups with guns so rifled. I just like the rifling to match the bore/round ball set up. I've kind of gotten away from conicals.

[starmac]

725 I may just have to check into that. I might could just get used to a short 58 with a round ball twist.