First kills with Lyman 429421

[cbr]

After years of saying I was going to deer hunt with handgun only, I finally did it this year. I used a .44 mag S&W 629 6 inch barrel and was shooting Lyman 429421 cast from water dropped wheel weights. They were pushed by 9 grains of unique, which I have been told is plenty for whitetails. After several days of frustration I finally got a nice 10 point buck within about 40 yards. I aimed right behind the shoulder and fired. The bullet struck him a little low, but right behind the shoulder. I felt like it was a good shot. He jumped and took off. He ran about 75 to 100 yards before lying down, and required a follow up shot to finish him off. Then that evening I shot a doe with the same rounds at approximately the same distance, 40 yards. This shot was slightly further back than It should have been, but still in her ribcage and she was not gutshot. She ran about 100 yards before lying down. She also required a follow up shot to finish her off.

I have never killed any large game with a handgun and was wondering if this is normal or if I should try something different next year. It was very satisfying harvesting two deer with a handgun and bullets I made myself, but I am used to them falling immediately or within a few seconds after the shot with a rifle. I know the keith bullet has killed lots of deer over the years. Will pushing it faster with 2400 make it kill deer faster, or will it just pass through faster and not make any difference? Should I try a lyman devastator hollow point? Anyone have any experience with them on deer? Thanks,

[Larry Gibson]

That is very "normal" for a "behind the shoulder shot". Suggest instead;

Envision a soccer ball or a large cantelope on smaller deer siitting low between the front legs/shoulders against the brisket. That is where the heart and thickest part of the lungs lay. Put your bullet through that "ball/cantelope" regardless of the angle and the deer will not go far and will not require a "finishing shot". A shot there on a broadside or quartering shot will also most likely break at least one of the front legs. It will also do the most internal damage and the blood, with the holes being low in the chest cavity will get blown out and freely flow out if the do amnage to go a distance (always excepetions). Additionally the maing arteries to the brain are there and blood pressure drops imediately. If level with the deer aim about 1/3 the way up the leg on a perfect broadside shot. On other shots just envision the ball/cantelope and put the bullet through it, if you do the deer will be yours very quickly.

Many prefer the "behind the shoulder shot" for less meat damage. Having lost a deer to such a shot I came to the conclusion that a lot more meat was lost to a shot that most often does not kill quickly with cast bullet loads, HV jacketed are another story. With the load you are using you will litterally be able to "eat right up to the bullet hole". I've shot several deer with that same bullet at the same velocity and can attest to that fact.

Larry Gibson

[Glen]

+1 to everything Larry said.

I have a simple way of approaching this -- for a typical broadside shot, I prefer the behind the shoulder shot IF I'm using an expanding bullet (like a cast HP, which is usually when I'm hunting deer). So placed, an expanding bullet will wreck both lungs, drop the animal quickly and tear up little meat. If I'm shooting a "solid" (like the Keith SWC), then I aim for the shoulder, a third of the way up just like Larry described (this is especially true for a moderate velocity load such as you describe). With a solid, at whatever angle, I try to place the shot so that it catches a shoulder, either on the way in, or on the way out.

[44man]

That is normal for the load. The .45 Colt has the same action at that velocity.
The .44 should be taken up to around 1300 to 1350 FPS for more internal damage. You need to go to 296 or H110 for hunting. Any bullet kills by energy transmission WHERE IT IS NEEDED. Yes, energy kills if not too low or misplaced.
I do not believe in muzzle energy or velocity figures, I believe in bullet/boolit WORK. That does take energy in any case so slow boolits need to deform some as do very fast boolits.
A hard boolit shot slow is a hole punch like a blunt stick. The problem is if you expand the slow boolit too much too fast, it will stop inside.
If hard, the shoulder shot is best but what if the deer takes a step at sear break? Speed up the 429421 and either hit is quick, dead meat.
You really need more energy with the hard boolit then 9 gr of Unique can provide.

[white eagle]

well now that you have used the 9 gr load that you were told was good enough what do YOU think of it
sounds like a plinking load to me not a hunting load

[cbr]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to load up some hotter loads with 2400 and hopefully try the same boolits on another doe if I can find the time to sneak away and hunt some more. White Eagle, your response made me chuckle. While the 9 grain of unique killed the deer, I dont plan on using it again for hunting. It was a very pleasant and accurate load though.

[MtGun44]

10 gr of Unique with a HP 429421, 9 gr of Power Pistol with same HP boolit CAST SOFT
not water dropped should work better. These will push at about 1100 fps and with a soft
alloy like air cooled wwts, you will get good or even explosive expansion (depending on the
cavity size, bottom shape, exact alloy and what it hits) with the front, and even if the front
blows off (which will zap the lungs) the rear will punch on through.

If you want the solid version, use a wwt alloy, not water dropped and 20-21 gr of 2400.
At higher velocities and softer alloy solid you will get a bit of mushrooming, but you need to hit
the heart or near to it, and it is lower than most folks think. Soft HPs with this velocity (about
1350 fps) should blow the whole HP portion off and really ventilate the lungs, but leave
the base to push on through, probably exit.

Bill

[CJR]

I use 25 gr. IMR4227 behind the 429421 WQ in the 44 Magnum. It's an old Lyman accuracy load that I've chrono'ed at 1350 fps. I prefer heart shots. When you take out the "boiler room" they typically don't go too far. Congrats on the kill!

Best regards,

CJR

[runfiverun]

like 44 man said soften the alloy [don't water drop ain't necessary] or speed things up.
i do both, ww's and soft 75-25 and 19 grs 2400.
it'll mush some but still punch through a deers bone.

[Hickory]

I have killed a few deer with a handgun, and feel
that the shoulder shot is better than a heart/lung shot.

When you break down the deers shoulder they can't get away
very well. Except in the case of a doe I shot once, she went down
but somehow got up on her hind legs and took off running.
After 20-25 yards she went down again and didn't get up.

[Bret4207]

Well, what you got was what was the typical reaction to a "low and slow" boolit or bullet. A 38/40, 44/40, 32/40, some of the 38/55 or most of the under 54 cal RB reactions will be similar. They ran a short distance and couldn't run anymore. I think when you look you'll see they were going to die shortly anyway. What more can you ask? If you want "bang/flop" then pop them with a much faster bullet that lightly constructed. 8 times out of 10 the deer will bang/flop if hit right. the other 2 times the deer will run for several hundred yards into the thickest krap he can find and die a day later. Or so goes my experience.

I'd follow Larrys suggestions. Sounds like good common sense to me.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Congratulations cbr! Ya got a deer with your own boolit and load out of a REVOLVER! That has to be great. Good job.

[pmer]

Yes I gotta say congrats too. These deer stories are fun to read. I've had some luck with my own boolits in the last couple years and wow, it sure is something! One thing I added was the use of ear protection when hunting with revolvers.

I used ZEM ear protectors. You can hear the squirrels running around and they block out the blast from the shot. They are small and don't use batteries.

They are here http://www.sensgard.com/

[TCLouis]

Congratulations on two deer.

You called both shots as less than ideal boolit placement and yet recovered both deer.

Maybe better placement will solve the problem.

What is that old quote . . . .

At what point during the animals demise did the boolit fail?

[fredj338]

Normal? SOrt of. You are using a solid @ moderate vel. It's punching a slightly larger than caliber hole. It will kill w/ that shot placement but not until the animal blees out. You don't need water dropped ww bullets @ 1050fps, about what your load is delivering. I would soften those a bit w/ pure lead, run them @ 1200fps & try again. For deer size game, I prefer a lead cup point for some deformation & larger wound.:popcorn:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg

[cbr]

Fredj338, that boolit and wound look impressive. Thats the lyman devastator isnt it? I was thinking of trying one of the lyman devastators but really dont want to have to use gas checks. Are there any factory hollow point non-gascheck molds or do I need to have one custom made?

[44man]

Normal? SOrt of. You are using a solid @ moderate vel. It's punching a slightly larger than caliber hole. It will kill w/ that shot placement but not until the animal blees out. You don't need water dropped ww bullets @ 1050fps, about what your load is delivering. I would soften those a bit w/ pure lead, run them @ 1200fps & try again. For deer size game, I prefer a lead cup point for some deformation & larger wound.:popcorn:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg
Yes, ideal in every way.

[Blammer]

good shooting! I'd aim a litte bit farther forward for a bang flop or quicker kills. My motto "aim for bone" :)

[EDK]

Fredj338, that boolit and wound look impressive. Thats the lyman devastator isnt it? I was thinking of trying one of the lyman devastators but really dont want to have to use gas checks. Are there any factory hollow point non-gascheck molds or do I need to have one custom made?

MI-HEC has a group buy going on now for 429640 in a craemer style hollow point. I'm in for a 4 cavity plain base....like you I don't care much for gas checks.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[GLynn41]

my 2 scents-- first nice shootin Tex- second the meplat which does most of the work is about --I am guessing .28 or so -- so some more speed would help the smaller meplat- - on non compressable material it is .430 in and out -- at 1300 my .33 meplat has always made 1" in the hide and out and more sometimes- even on boar- range was 40 yards at most for the deer and boar-one deer at 40 yards the lungs were blown up like a rifle hit- so the larger does change things-- after Larry Gibson --Glen and others I have gone to cast HP on deer-- last year the devestator in the. 41/454 worked just fine- this year it is the penta points but no shots yet--acww should work well but I have not seen them to expand at normal magnum velocity with out a hp - so think about hp ing your mold --or speed them up some so the samller meplat can do more- or think about different mold with larger meplat -lots of choices --I still am in love with keith molds - and not ready to stop using them -- and I too use electronic head phones- last thought for fun Go to beartooth and use their wound channel predictor --under ballistics-- to me in my limited experience it is pretty close

[44 flattop]

I've killed a LOT of deer with nearly that exact load, 9grs Unique and either the 429244 or 429421 from both rifles and pistols. Even wrote up a little article about it back in the '80's for SSK's HHI. Took a few bear with it too. And still use it today.

Out of more than a couple dozen deer that I've taken with this load the reactions can be as varied as one can imagine. From dropping in their tracks at the shot without a twitch to running a couple hundred yards before bedding down. Like us, deer are quite a lot different from one another. Two things that always remained consistant were that one, I never recovered a bullet from any angle. Always exited. And two, I never lost a deer shot with this load, nearly every one was a one shot kill.

44

[cbr]

Thanks for all the responses. I cast a batch of 429421's today out of a pretty soft mystery alloy ( I think about 50% lead and 50% WW), and a batch of air cooled WW. I would like to try some of these softer boolits with the same 9 grain of Unique load, and also see how fast I can push them with 2400 without leading.

44 flattop, how hard of an alloy were you using? Is your article available to read anywhere? If so I would like to read it. I found a bunch of Elmer Keith's articles about the .44 online the other day and found them to be very interesting. I have been kind of obsessed with hunting with the .44 mag here lately. Hunting with a handgun is so much fun I may never deer hunt with a rifle again.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I knew this old cowpuncher years ago, lived up in Salmon, Idaho. He used about the same load, and that exact bullet, in its' original form. I think he started using it in the early 1930's...

Rich

[44 flattop]

44 flattop, how hard of an alloy were you using? Is your article available to read anywhere? If so I would like to read it.
I use about 75/25 WW/pure lead with a pinch of tin thrown in. As to the article, I have no idea if it is available online anywhere.


I found a bunch of Elmer Keith's articles about the .44 online the other day and found them to be very interesting. I have been kind of obsessed with hunting with the .44 mag here lately. Hunting with a handgun is so much fun I may never deer hunt with a rifle again.
I've had so much fun over the past 35 years hunting with the .44 in mostly revolver form, I just can't tell you. Only recently have I went back to using rifles any, and that in Leverguns using straight walled cases and mostly just .44's.

44

[pcmacd]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to load up some hotter loads with 2400 and hopefully try the same boolits on another doe if I can find the time to sneak away and hunt some more. White Eagle, your response made me chuckle. While the 9 grain of unique killed the deer, I dont plan on using it again for hunting. It was a very pleasant and accurate load though.

I like #9 or 2400 for full house 44 mag loads, usually with a gas check. I'm sure they would be fine at lower velocities. H296 is just soooo abrupt - these other two are much pleasant to shoot at the same velocity. I've got a great grand jug of 296, but still bought some of these other two. I'll use the H296 for 30 carbine.

These two propellants (esp. #9) also work great for 240 grain or 300 grain JHPs (they were blems but I'd wager they are Hornady) at top velocities in my 629 with the ~8" barrel, and my Desert Eagle.