5744 in a muzzle loader.

[runfiverun]

i was in the gun shop earlier today looking for a good 45 colt revolver light enough to carry but enough to deal with upper end loads.

when another customer comes in and asks for some aa-5744.
clerk says yeah sure it's over there.
right near where i was standing.
the guy comes over and i think possibly another boolit caster and so i ask him which calibers he was gonna try the 5744 in.
first he says he really won't buy it unless he can use it in his 243 and 270.
so now i am thinking he is definately a caster.
till he says he really wants it for his muzzle loader.
my brain:whaaaahnh??
him:yeah, it's all over the internet he says.
me:uummm. dude, i am all over the internet and i ain't never seen nuthin lke that.
you shootin one of those new savages?
him: no i just seen it in some of the forums.
me:5744? you sure?
him:yeah thats the number.
me: you sure they aren't talking about black powder cartridges like the 45-70?
him:nope, it's being used in their muzzle loaders about 48 grs is the load i got.
by this time the shop hand has made his way over and is perusing through some loading manuals.
shop dude: i don't see anything like this in any of the manuals.
guy again : well can i just use it in my 270 and 243?
me: you can with reduced velocity loads or with cast boolits.
him: what velocities are we talking?
me: 2,000 fps at the top.
awkward pause here.
finally the shop hand and i in unison.
i'd suggest you call accurate powders and speak to them about this.
me: i have talked to them before and have gotten some very good un published loads from them.
him: well...
shop hand: here is their phone number.
semi sheepish look, a mumbled thanks, and a departure.

shop hand: hey did you see this browning 45-70 levegun?
wife: dammit..

anyways it was a happy ending.............thoughts?
anyone heard of this?
using the aa-5744 thing not the buying a new err old lever gun.

[Ia.redneck]

Really curious for the responses on this, I have heard the same rumor here from a co-worker.

[TCLouis]

From the day they first announced that one brand of muzzle loading rifle that would utilize smokeless powder I have claimed that they will get people maimed and killed using smokeless powder in an inappropriate rifle!

[whisler]

Not going to try it in any of MY muzzle-loaders!!!!

[Mumblypeg]

Fagitaboutit ! Why? If it's a muzzell loader, it's meant for black or sub if you must.
BTW... I heard somewhere that the earth is flat:violin:.

[waksupi]

Smokeless powder, bad, bad idea.

Lamar getting another lever action. Good, good idea.

[MikeS]

Isn't there a muzzle loader that's specifically made to use smokeless? If so, why would somebody want one of those?

[nanuk]

years ago, I remember listening to several experienced reloaders discussing smokeless in ML's.

since then I have wondered about it.... several questions I have had have not been answered in a way that explains it to me. ( I have a thick skull sometimes )

and to top it off, a fellow was telling me he had a hawkins style ML that would recock the hammer on the shot, cause he used so much black powder... I asked him if he had ever read up on the smokeless MLers, or known anyone who tried it, and he said "No, but I think I might... sounds interesting"

I've never tried it, and all them guys are still alive and with all their fingers. I don't know if they have ever tried it.

[PAT303]

We had bloke years ago at my range shoot a mix of shotgun powder and black in a Parker Hale two band 577 because it didn't need as much cleaning. Pat

[shotman]

the savage uses it the nipple is smaller. and tends to burn out . They sell them in 5 packs so they must not last long , would bet you would get a heavy back flash with a reg nipple. But it was made for heavy slow stuff.
243 and 270 I dont think so
It does very good in 338-06 with jacket or cast

[excess650]

There is a thread here at Cast Boolits, complete with pictures, of a Savage MLer letting go and nearly taking the LH off the user. Yeah, Savage made a MLer specifically for smokeless, but I think that is the only one.

Blackhorn 209 is a substitute for MLers that cleans with nitro solvent. I use it in my Omega, but it requires 209 shotshell primers for ignition. It won't work in a sidelock percussion or flint. Western Powder also has data for loading this powder in cartridges, but its REALLY expensive.

[Jim]

Shucks, let's get some velocity goin' here. How 'bout an empty shotshell full of Bullseye?

[jandbn]

There is mention of using 5744 (and Vitavouri N110 and IMR 4227) in a Savage Model 10MLSS-II on GunBlast: http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm. Also mention of 5744 with the Savage on Chuckhawks: http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder_muzzleloading.htm.

To my knowledge, the Savage is the only ML tested for smokeless. Other manufacturers came out with the "Magnum" ML to compete with Savage.

Interesting story on how the Savage ML came about: http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

[jandbn]

Just stumbled on SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING INC in regards to smokeless in an ML: http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/loadingchart.html. There is nothing on the website to clarify whether or not they have been tested.

[TNFrank]

There is mention of using 5744 (and Vitavouri N110 and IMR 4227) in a Savage Model 10MLSS-II on GunBlast: http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm. Also mention of 5744 with the Savage on Chuckhawks: http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder_muzzleloading.htm.

To my knowledge, the Savage is the only ML tested for smokeless. Other manufacturers came out with the "Magnum" ML to compete with Savage.

Interesting story on how the Savage ML came about: http://www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Yep, Savage has come out with a muzzle loader(well, an inline which I don't consider a REAL muzzleloader,LOL) that can use smokeless powder. My own personal opinion is that if you're not using a rock to spark things off it's too modern for me. Yep, I love those flintlocks.:mrgreen:

[mpmarty]

Gee I wonder how my Barrett fifty would work with a case full of 4fg?

[scattershot]

Shucks, let's get some velocity goin' here. How 'bout an empty shotshell full of Bullseye?

Careful, Jim. Somebody may see this, and say he "saw it on the internet, so it must work"!

[Papa smurf]

You cant fix stupid---------let them do what they will , it gets them out of the gene pool !
Good shooting-------------------------------Papa Smurf

[44man]

I had to step away for a while to digest the stupidity of ANY smokeless in a muzzle loader and the minds eye pictures of dead or torn up shooters! :groner:
Even the Savage has had problems containing the pressures without the brass case.

[gandydancer]

There is a man looking to get his ssa blown up. 48 grs? my 50/140 will use 48 grs with a 700 lead bullet at 1529 FPS I use 33.5 grs in my 458 win and that will thump you a good one. I thing we will be reading about a x muzzle loader known as ol three finger one eyed gap tooth sorry butt. GD

[MtGun44]

Seems like the whole smokeless in a ML is a pretty dangerous place to go.

OK - Serious question, triggered by a comment above, which was intended as a joke, I believe.

Has any body ACTUALLY TRIED, not read about, heard about, etc. using FFFFg as a main
charge - presumably with a lower volume than FFFg or FFg?

For example, in a Colt 1860 clone the normal charges are around 30 gr (IIRC) and I
have wondered if 15-20 gr of FFFFg would actually work. It appears that the actual burn
rate difference between FFg and FFFg is pretty small, so it seems reasonable that FFFFg
would be a bit faster but not a huge change in speed.

Please - I KNOW that it is "not recommended except for priming in flintlocks", that is
not the question. The issue is that I have a significant quantity of FFFFg and no flinter,
got it at a good price, was thinking to burn it in my ML pistols, but not real crazy so want
to think this through carefully before trying it.

Bill

[44man]

Seems like the whole smokeless in a ML is a pretty dangerous place to go.

OK - Serious question, triggered by a comment above, which was intended as a joke, I believe.

Has any body ACTUALLY TRIED, not read about, heard about, etc. using FFFFg as a main
charge - presumably with a lower volume than FFFg or FFg?

For example, in a Colt 1860 clone the normal charges are around 30 gr (IIRC) and I
have wondered if 15-20 gr of FFFFg would actually work. It appears that the actual burn
rate difference between FFg and FFFg is pretty small, so it seems reasonable that FFFFg
would be a bit faster but not a huge change in speed.

Please - I KNOW that it is "not recommended except for priming in flintlocks", that is
not the question. The issue is that I have a significant quantity of FFFFg and no flinter,
got it at a good price, was thinking to burn it in my ML pistols, but not real crazy so want
to think this through carefully before trying it.

Bill
Not the answer you want of course. It should work. Pressures from FFFFG are higher but it is still BP. Reducing and using a filler to keep out airspace might be fine. I use cornmeal or cream of wheat over reduced loads in the cap and ball. You can use those vegi wads too.
But then I jam 41 gr of Swiss FFFG in my Old Army for 1102 fps!
A tip for lube. Use a BPCR lube like Mathews over the ball instead of Crisco. It does not blow away like Crisco.

[whisler]

Mtgun44: check out The High Road website, black powder section for a video of FFFFg used in a Colt Pocket Pistol

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE=TNFrank; My own personal opinion is that if you're not using a rock to spark things off it's too modern for me. Yep, I love those flintlocks.:mrgreen:[/QUOTE]

Nope.....my matchlock is a real muzzle loader those Flintlock shooters are modern technology geeks.

George

[MtGun44]

whisler -

THANKS! Excellent video, and very educational.

44man, Our thinking is along the same lines. I also ran across a set of pressure plots
of different granulations of BP being tested in a 16 ga shotgun. Interestingly FFFg
produced about 425 units of pressure and FFFFg produced about 500 units of pressure.
This is about 18% pressure increase, and while nothing to ignore, it is not too likely
to blow up a BP pistol. I have had great success following Elmer's advice and using
Wonder Wads under the ball. Of course, Elmer made his own version, but the effect is
the same. You can shoot all day.

I may try this out this weekend.

Bill

[44man]

Mtgun44: check out The High Road website, black powder section for a video of FFFFg used in a Colt Pocket Pistol
Can you post a link, I can't find the video.

[MtGun44]

44man,

Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ptTCAcpbe0

Here is the pressure curve post.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7359850&highlight=Vectan+black#post7359850

Both very interesting, and it is extremely valuable to get the actual pressure curve to be
able to put some real science behind some of the old wives tales.

Bill

[44man]

Nice little gun. Looks like fun.

[MtGun44]

I shot FFFFg in my Pieta replica 1860 Army today. I works just fine, actually VERY accurate,
too. Pretty windy today but at 12 yds I could keep most of them in one ragged hole standing
unsupported.

I started with 10 gr (all by vol) then 15, then 20, 25, and finally 30 gr. I think I'll go back
to 20 or 25 gr because they were very accurate and there seems to be no need for plinking
to use the extra powder. 30 gr was as accurate, but there is no need to run the larger charges,
really.

Another old wives tale bites the dust. Now - I would not use it in my .50 cal rifle for full
power loads, but FFFFg seems just fine for moderate pistol loads.

Bill

[whisler]

MtGun44: thanks for posting that last info. I also have an 1860 Army and will try FFFFg in it@ 20 & 25 gr. Was that Goex ?

[rockrat]

Savage for the smokeless powder, 5744 was one of the powders recommended IIRC. I have read of people taking the Rem 700 ML and putting a new barrel on, possibly from pac-nor and maybe others, and using it with smokeless powder.

[onesonek]

"shop hand: hey did you see this browning 45-70 levegun?
wife: dammit.."

I never take the wife to the gunshop,,,,,
unless she's buying! lol

[runfiverun]

she's cool about it, and is a pro at filling out the background check form.
she knows i have been looking for a 45-70, and a 45 colt hunting/carry revolver for quite some time.
as do the guy's at the shop, the shop owner is always looking for dan wesson revolvers for me and will actually call from a gun show in another state if he sees somethiing interesting.

[jandbn]

I shot FFFFg in my Pieta replica 1860 Army today. I works just fine, actually VERY accurate,
too. Pretty windy today but at 12 yds I could keep most of them in one ragged hole standing
unsupported.

I started with 10 gr (all by vol) then 15, then 20, 25, and finally 30 gr. I think I'll go back
to 20 or 25 gr because they were very accurate and there seems to be no need for plinking
to use the extra powder. 30 gr was as accurate, but there is no need to run the larger charges,
really.

Another old wives tale bites the dust. Now - I would not use it in my .50 cal rifle for full
power loads, but FFFFg seems just fine for moderate pistol loads.

Bill

MT,

Not FFFFg or non-metalic, but some more pressure graph's of BP vs. smokeless in a 45-70 here:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27410&sid=9e8f908928fc41cf8cac408b462cc70e

[MtGun44]

Yes, GOEX FFFFg in a Pieta 1860 Army, and with a .454 ball it cuts a nice ring of lead. I was
using Ox Yoke felt wads and had excellent results, accuracy-wise. I went up to 30 gr, had
no problems or indications of anything unusual, just figured that for plinking why waste the
extra powder if 20 or 25 shoots great?

When I cleaned the gun there was sort of a lead strings in the first 1/2" of barrel but the
rest was clean and shiny with bits of powder residue. I ran 8 cylinders through it, with the
last couple with some fake black powder that I got given to me. Clean shot or something.
Seems to work OK, just having fun using it up, and getting rid of a partial box of Hornady
.451 balls which are definitely OK, but just not quite as accurate as the FFFFg and .454 balls.
The lead strings cleaned out with a few passes with a brass brush and Windex with vinegar.

jandbn - interesting. I use 57.0 gr of W748 under a 405 boolit or bullet in my Marlin 1895
GG. This load develops 1750 fps in my gun and was published by Brian Pierce in an article
in Rifle or Handloader. Brian reports that it is a pressure tested load AND IS OK FOR TRAPDOORS.
Super slow powder (for that cartridge) and lots of it, great velocity but still very low pressure.

Bill

[onesonek]

she's cool about it, and is a pro at filling out the background check form.
she knows i have been looking for a 45-70, and a 45 colt hunting/carry revolver for quite some time.
as do the guy's at the shop, the shop owner is always looking for dan wesson revolvers for me and will actually call from a gun show in another state if he sees somethiing interesting.

That's cool !
I wish I could say the same,,,,my wife just never really took interest.

[Bad Water Bill]

From someone who actually OWNS one and shoots it. Savage ML 10 is classed as a muzzle loader. I do use 5744 in her. With a PB 335 gr HP I have nice 1 1/2"groups at 100 yards.

The ONLY person that has ever reported a blown Savage was a disgruntled X employee.

For a lot of information on the Savage M L you can contact Randy Wakeman at

http://randywakeman.com/inline.htm

Randy is a gun writer and as you will see he definitely has his opinions but from all I have read over the last 5-6 years he does err on the safe side every time. I may not always agree with Randy but respect his sticking to his statements. Yes he hunts with the gun and has for years.

A question for many of the modern M L shooters. Since it takes less time to drop 3 pellets of a black powder SUBSTITUTE down the tube and seat your pill before you shoot what is the big difference. We both use a primer, place propellant down the tube, ram home the boolit and shoot. OOPs you have to look thru a cloud of smoke and hurry home to boil out your tube before it rusts,

Savage just used modern technology and entered the 20th century of muzzle loading.

Yes I still own a couple black powder guns and shoot them and hurry home to boil out the tubes before they rust and have done so for many years.

[turbo1889]

Well, I guess I'm going to stir the pot a little since what I have to say is going to cut across the grain of what has been said so far.

Yes, it is possible to use smokeless powders in muzzle loaders only designed and intended for black powder including side-lock guns.

Long story short there are smokeless powders that will reliably ignite and burn at chamber pressures at or below about 12-K or so. At least one of them is slow enough burning to allow very large charges providing as much or more velocity then is possible with black powder. I won't say which one or how much but I use one of them all the time in my 45-cal inline with 209 ignition it is a magnum that is rated for a 150 grain charge of BP but it isn't rated or intended for smokeless. It is also true though that shotguns were never intended for use with smokeless.

[Blackwater]

I know of a few knowledgeable boys who have modified their M-700 muzzle loaders significantly and use smokeless, but the modifications are what allows them to use them. When they got the idea to try this, they found some info they needed, and developed the mods through trial and error, firing with the guns tied to an old tire. This is NOT, though - repeat NOT - something anyone who's not WELL versed in metalurgy and several other fields would EVER want to try.

The Darwin Awards have enough entrants already!!!

[MikeS]

Turbo:

I'm not questioning using the powder you're using as in if it's safe or not (it apparently is safe enough for you). And I'm not going to ask you for loading data (as in how much), but I am curious as to what powder you're using? As it is, I've more or less decided to go in the other direction, and today bought a pound of Goex FFg powder (the real stuff) to use instead of the 777 that I was going to use in my .54 cal White Mountain Carbine. I've read too much stuff about 777 and it fouling even more than true black powder, so as long as I have a source of the real stuff I might as well use it. BTW, what is the going price for black powder? I bought a pound at Outdoor World for $24.00 and was wondering if that's a good price or not? The only other local store that sells it wants like $10.00/lb more, and while I prefer to give small local shops my business, not when the price is that much higher!

[turbo1889]

MikeS - PM sent.

[MikeS]

Thanks for the info!