View Full Version : Lots of variables.......

02-17-2007, 08:33 PM
Been working on an accurate load since I got my new Shiloh 45-90 back in Dec. I don't get nearly as much range time as some of you guys so its taking me awhile. Finally getting close or so I thought......

79 grains by weight of FF compressed .200, .30 vegetable fiber wad, 532 grain 20-1 lead tin postell sized to .459 with SPG lube seated with thumb pressure only. Cases have been neck sized only. 5 puffs between rounds with my blowtube. I run a couple wet patches and a couple dry ones between 5 shot strings and fire a fouling shot before going for each group.

With the above load last weekend I had 4 shots go into 1 3/8" with a flier on the 5th shot which was totally my fault, .

Today I loaded up 20 rounds starting at 79 and working 5 round batches up to 79.6 grains with everything else the same except slightly more compression with the increased charges.

I was very confident on the way to the range and looking forward to some tight groups. To make a long story short....I was ALL OVER the paper...I mean really scattered. I was flabbergasted to say the least! After firing all four groups I sat down and tried to think what could have happened.

I have a MVA midrange soule sight and upon checking it I discovered that the eyecup was loose as a goose. Boy did I learn a lesson! Soooo, I feel anytime you learn something it isn't a total waste of lead and powder.[smilie=1:

02-17-2007, 10:07 PM
Hey John , there's another guy thats a member of PSC that got a 45-100 from C Sharps not to long ago and he's not having the best of luck so far .
Talked with him in one of the local gunshops friday for about half an hour . Told him about ordering the 50-90 and about your 45-90 . Think he wants to get together for a learning session [smilie=1:

02-17-2007, 10:09 PM
This guy has a MVA vernier sight on and thinks maybe his eyes are not good enough any longer . So he ordered a MVA scope for it . Thinks he should have it in about 4 weeks .

I told him I would love to shoot it after he puts the scope on [smilie=1:

02-18-2007, 10:50 AM
to admit that my eyes are getting so bad I can't use open sights anymore.

Absolutely lets get together, I don't know much but if we all put our heads together we should be able to make some progress. I know I am close but for equipment/mental malfunctions.

Lets plan something soon....I want to discuss PSC and also get you some pure lead to make some boolits with.

I will be going back to the range today, it opens at 1 and closes at 5PM so don't have allot of time.

02-18-2007, 03:08 PM
will be going back to the range today, it opens at 1 and closes at 5PM so don't have allot of time.

Where are you going to shoot , Clarke Brothers , Bull Run or the Isac Walton in Centerville ?

02-18-2007, 08:47 PM
Ain't it always the little details that get you. Laugh at this one...at a match 2 years ago in Roanoke, I was perched on one of the benches near the 500m firing position, enjoying the show. One gent came rushing to the line carying his "thumb seated ammo" in his hand. When he dropped the rounds on his shooting mat, he discovered that somewhere between his ammo box and the firing line, 4 of the 5 boolits had gone AWOL in the grass. It was amusing, watching him hunt the short grass for those escaped boolits and he took a good bit of ribbing from every one. To his credit, he put em back together and shot a 6 or 7 out of ten rams.


02-18-2007, 10:08 PM
John-I know you didn't ask my opinion, but are you convinced it's worthwhile to mess with tenth-grain increments with black powder? My first BPCR reloading literally wasted weeks and pounds of lead testing between 68.5 and 70 grains of Goex Cartridge in a .45-70. I never determined a repeatable difference in accuracy or a statistically valid difference via chronograph. I finally went with 69 grains 'cause it's easy to remember. 1 3/8" for 4 rounds at 100 yards is certainly competitive accuracy-testing at 200 yards or more is sometimes very instructive, too. If someone else has had a different experience with black, I might get off my lazy butt and experiment some more......

02-18-2007, 10:34 PM
Here's another free opinion to ignore. I remember reading a long time ago wherein a knowledgeable gun writer said that he found it was useless to fool with powder charge variations of less than half an inch for charges of 30 grains or less. And to use only full grain variations for charges over 30 grains. Anyone who has ever chronographed a string of loads can see the wisdom in that. The variation over a ten shot string of the same weighed charge will show velocity variations every bit as big as the average velocity of the loads one grain more or less. My experience is with rifle powders; if you're doing fast pistol powders with under 10 grain loads, then you might have an argument for using 2 or 3 tenths of a grain variation. Personally I've always just used loads at full or half grain points because I'm lazy.

02-19-2007, 03:51 AM
I honestly have never seen a difference in loads of 1/2 grain difference. I think I may have with a one grain difference but I'm not sure. BP is very forgiving. I'd be looking at the bullet tension in the case mouths. It might be time to anneal the case mouths and give that a try. You might also want to check the compression die and make sure it hasn't moved.

02-19-2007, 08:23 AM
last night I loaded up a batch of 3 round test groups increasing the charge by 1/2 grain increments. I agree that 1/10 grain is a total waste of time and 5 shot groups is a waste of lead until I get a little closer and want a group to impress you folks[smilie=1:

Yesterdays range work was inconclusive. I fired 5 different loads and they all were 2 or 3 inch groups. At least there were some recognizable groups this time!

All my cases have been annealed and I use just enough neck tension to hold the boolit in the case right now.

Like I said im my original post....lots of variables, but I am having lots of FUN trying to figure them all out.

The last time I really did any serious load work was back in the 70's working up a varmint load for a 22-250 I used to eliminate groundhogs. I used 1/10 grain increments then and finally ended up with a 3/16" 5 shot group. Probably still somewhat stuck in that smokeless mentality I guess.

02-19-2007, 01:20 PM
The old Lyman 44th Edition lists 4.0---8.0 Unique with 158 grain cast bullet in.357Magnum. From about 7 grains,you can increase in 1/10th grain increments and you will feel the difference.

02-19-2007, 01:52 PM
he found it was useless to fool with powder charge variations of less than half an inch for charges of 30 grains or less.
I hope Carpetman can explain THAT statement for us...

I have a feeling the standard for this measurement method is not the grain of wheat...but possibly long grained rice.

I am picturing a powder scale with the beam graduated so that it can accurately measure out a black powder load (say for .45 long Colt) of 12 1/2...wherein the actual breakdown is '12 grains plus a half inch of powder'.

02-19-2007, 03:13 PM
I hope Carpetman can explain THAT statement for us...

The CarpetMan doesn't explain; either you're a true believer or you're one of them...

Kenny Wasserburger
02-19-2007, 05:29 PM
In smaller cases,

I would say no, a .5 gr difference does not make much real world difference. I do notice some difference in mainly the compression amount in bigger cases, ie the 45-110.

right now my best load is 106.4 grs of Fg Express it just seems to hold a bit tighter then the 107 gr load or 106 gr load. the 107 gr load gives me .410 compression the 106 gr load is like .370 where my experience suggests that Fg Express in the 110 gives best accuracy at .385 compression. As in all things your mileage may varry.

Swiss, well thats a totally different thing.

Kenny Wasserburger

02-19-2007, 06:23 PM
Your compression #'s are right on with what I saw loading my 45-90 with 1/2 grain increments. right on .020 increase with 1/2 grain of FF.

02-20-2007, 01:05 AM
I don't say that know much but this is my program with black or the holy powder
IF you load your rounds with the bullet as close as you can to rifling even if your bullet lube groove is or exposed may a little more I do not care what or how many grains are in the case I just use my powder to gauge it to get a filled chamber it's just with a big slug I have found up to the rifling in black is very important IF seated
out farther I just put a little more neck tension on them for me I use swiss 1.5 on all my rounds in my rifles but thats me never have I GOT as much consistency or performance out other brands then at that point I take that variable for the most part so I can work with compression and primer with swiss it's been lite for me all the time but through drop tube then for primers 45-90 215 mag primer 45-70 same
38-55 win large primer hey maybe the bullet wont work ! but I Have found out in my little world filling that chamber makes the difference I am not good at putting things
down in print sorry but I try too !!