Ladle Technique

[DeanWinchester]

There are so many idiosyncrasies to casting down to the way you hold your jaw shut when tapping open a spru plate....:)

I recently got a mold from a member here, one I was VERY tickled to be getting. 170g Keith style boolit for my .357 mag. It's a lyman and it was spotless, but despite scrubbing with solvent, smoking with matches, you name it, I couldn't get a good boolit. If the base was sharp and square, the nose was wrinkled. If the nose filled out perfect, the base had an unacceptable radius to it. I had the sucker so hot at one time, the boolits looked almost crystalline. Willing to try anything I began goofing around (safely).

Now, I've never claimed to be a smart guy, but I saw that the angle of the sprue opening matched the Lyman ladle I was using. I turned the mold sideways, pressed a half filled ladle up tight and turned it over, held for three seconds then turn it back. (repeat for the other cavity) It made a mess. It also made, I swear!, a pair of the nicest looking boolits I have ever cast. SO, I did that again....about 200 times. I have a pile of some of the nicest looking boolits I ever cast. Maybe the small victory coupled with the fact I really wanted this boolit, makes them look better than they really are???
I don't care.


Anyone ever cast like this. It's very time consuming and a touch messy, but I had a 5% scrap rate as opposed to a 95% so it's obviously time well spent. I've always poured with the bottom of my ladle touching the edge of the mold, then rock it over gently. That leaves around a 1/8-1/4 gap that the stream flows. It also makes very tidy sprues and no runover on my molds anywhere. Funny, this mold today looks awful. It has a thin coat of lead over half of it. Of course after it cooled I peeled all of it right off.

Mehh. I guess it doesn't matter as long as the finished product is up to standard and there's no damage to the equipment. Probably yesterday's news to you old fellars[smilie=l: but I thought it was pretty cool.

[JBL]

Here is how my dad taught me to cast 35 years ago. We used Lyman molds and ladle. Hold the mold so that the sprue plate is facing to your right (opposite for lefties) fill the ladle half full of lead. Place the ladle in contact with the mold quickly turn the mold and ladle over to fill the mold with a twisting motion. This breaks the sprue from the ladle. This is how I’ve always cast and have very little returns and no mess. I plan on posting a video on black Friday. There should be no mess and small sprue if done right. Also before thermometers you could tell by the sprue if your temp was right. A long sprue meant your lead or mold was cold, no sprue you were to hot and a hole in the base meant your were way to hot. Also there’s no need to hold for three seconds as the lead freezes almost instantly. Doing it this way your are pouring from the “bottom” of the ladle so your lead is clean.

[leftiye]

Put the mold on a hotplate with an aluminum plate on it (put a hole in the middle of the plate if you are using a hollow point mold). Pour with mold on hotplate, knock out boolit, replace on hotplate, pour again. Aluminum plate will store and even out heat from hotplate, when mold is placed on plate the aluminum will dump heat into mold rapidly. Your noses are wrinkled because the bottom of the mold is too cool. Cool is good, just not there.

The technique you described is a form of pressure casting (as done with a ladle). The fast fill and contact pour are not necessary if your mold is hot enough.

There ought to be an electric ladle that keeps the lead hot. I took a large ladle, and put a tube in it from the bottom of the bowl to a cut in the side where the spout had been - as in a Rowell bottom pour ladle. Then I welded a 90 degree segment from another ladle of the same size on to the opposite side of the rim from the tube outlet, bored a hole at the center of the old rim line opposite the tube, and welded a short (1/2 in.) piece of tube into that hole (looks like a big Lyman ladle with a tube into the bottom opposite where the lyman spout would be).. You fill the ladle by submerging that tube through your slag and leaving it there while the ladle fills (gets clean lead this way, and heats the ladle too). Rotate ladle to keep lead in, rotate more and the bottom tube picks up clean lead and fills mold (if you have the spout end of tube over the sprue hole of the mold).

[MikeS]

Dean: The way you're describing is called 'Pressure Casting' and is a fairly common way to cast. That's why the angle of the ladle & mould are the same! When I first started casting, I used a ladle, and used this method almost all the time. Some moulds need to be cast this way, others won't work well when casting this way. Each mould has it's own favorite way of being cast, and the same is true when using a bottom pour pot, some moulds want to be filled from the front to the back, others from back to front, etc.

JBL: There's nothing wrong with holding the ladle to the mould for a few seconds, it insures that the mould gets all the lead it needs, and can draw from the ladle as it cools to avoid voids in the boolit. That's one of the reasons you might want to pressure cast. If you're not pressure casting, and just pouring the lead from the ladle to the mould, then it's a good idea to leave a fairly large sprue puddle to keep the sprue plate hot.

Just this week I used a Rowell #1 ladle to cast with a 6 cavity mould for the first time. I was casting boolits for a black powder revolver, so was casting pure lead, and the boolits came out much better than I expected, because as I said before when I used a ladle most of the time I was pressure casting as I couldn't seem to get good fill out using a Lyman ladle when not pressure casting.

[MikeS]

There ought to be an electric ladle that keeps the lead hot.

There is. It's called the 'Hot Pot' made by the C. Palmer Company. The older ones have the heating element right in the pot itself, and the newer ones, the 'Hot Pot II' have the element outside, attached to the bottom. They hold around 4 lbs of lead, and are designed to be picked up, and poured directly into a mould, so they're kind of like a mix of a pot, and a ladle. They also used to make one called the 'Super Pot' that was basically the same thing, except that it had a frame that could (should?) be attached to a base, then to pour you would tip it forward to pour the lead into the mould. I have one of the Super Pot models, and they (any of them) come in handy when you want to cast just a few boolits, and either don't want to fire up your regular pot, or if you want to make a few from a different alloy than you normally use, etc.

[MGySgt]

Deanwinchester - if you read the Lyman Cast Bullet Hand book - that is the method they tell you to use.

[Bret4207]

Anyone ever cast like this. It's very time consuming and a touch messy, but I had a 5% scrap rate as opposed to a 95% so it's obviously time well spent. I've always poured with the bottom of my ladle touching the edge of the mold, then rock it over gently. That leaves around a 1/8-1/4 gap that the stream flows. It also makes very tidy sprues and no runover on my molds anywhere. Funny, this mold today looks awful. It has a thin coat of lead over half of it. Of course after it cooled I peeled all of it right off.



Little teeny sprues may look "neat" but they also solidify a lot faster than big honkin' messy sprues that cover half the mould in lead alloy. Many times that extra heat and time is needed for the n boolits to fill out properly. But- each mould is an individual, so being flexible in your thinking is a good habit.

[WARD O]

Pressure pouring is almost a necessity when making big boolits - it is the only method for me for my Sharps and Rolling Block where they are 45 to 50 cal. When you get used to it, it really goes quite fast. I also like to leave more than a tiny little sprue as sometimes the pour sucks into the mould as it solidifies. If you leave too little on the sprue you get holes in the base.
Ward

[DeanWinchester]

Pressure casting. Thanks!

[runfiverun]

my lymans will pressure cast right to the bottom of my lee 20 lb pot.
i set my self up a box under my magma pot to hold my 4 cavity molds at a consistent height and allow the flow to run into the molds from an angle instead of shooting it into the holes.
for most of my rifle molds i shoot the stream right into the hole.
i have one rcbs mold that i use the ladle on but it is not the pressure casting that makes it work i have to swirl the alloy in from about 1/4" away and pour a good sprue i have to wait for the sprue to suck in [you can visibly see it] and change color before opening the mold.

each mold is a little different and the length, number of drive bands,sprue hole size,and venting makes each one unique

[44man]

There are so many idiosyncrasies to casting down to the way you hold your jaw shut when tapping open a spru plate....:)

I recently got a mold from a member here, one I was VERY tickled to be getting. 170g Keith style boolit for my .357 mag. It's a lyman and it was spotless, but despite scrubbing with solvent, smoking with matches, you name it, I couldn't get a good boolit. If the base was sharp and square, the nose was wrinkled. If the nose filled out perfect, the base had an unacceptable radius to it. I had the sucker so hot at one time, the boolits looked almost crystalline. Willing to try anything I began goofing around (safely).

Now, I've never claimed to be a smart guy, but I saw that the angle of the sprue opening matched the Lyman ladle I was using. I turned the mold sideways, pressed a half filled ladle up tight and turned it over, held for three seconds then turn it back. (repeat for the other cavity) It made a mess. It also made, I swear!, a pair of the nicest looking boolits I have ever cast. SO, I did that again....about 200 times. I have a pile of some of the nicest looking boolits I ever cast. Maybe the small victory coupled with the fact I really wanted this boolit, makes them look better than they really are???
I don't care.


Anyone ever cast like this. It's very time consuming and a touch messy, but I had a 5% scrap rate as opposed to a 95% so it's obviously time well spent. I've always poured with the bottom of my ladle touching the edge of the mold, then rock it over gently. That leaves around a 1/8-1/4 gap that the stream flows. It also makes very tidy sprues and no runover on my molds anywhere. Funny, this mold today looks awful. It has a thin coat of lead over half of it. Of course after it cooled I peeled all of it right off.

Mehh. I guess it doesn't matter as long as the finished product is up to standard and there's no damage to the equipment. Probably yesterday's news to you old fellars[smilie=l: but I thought it was pretty cool.
Everything is right except DO NOT turn both back, just tip off the ladle to leave a nice sprue. Hold the mold level when you do.
You should not have any mess when casting.

[FirstBrit]

There are so many idiosyncrasies to casting down to the way you hold your jaw shut when tapping open a spru plate....:)
..................
Mehh. I guess it doesn't matter as long as the finished product is up to standard and there's no damage to the equipment. Probably yesterday's news to you old fellars[smilie=l: but I thought it was pretty cool.

Hi Dean,
I've been hand casting with ladles and bottom pour pots for almost 30 years now and the last 10 years I have been making cast bullets commercially with equipment from Magma Engineering.

The past 10 years have also enlightened me even more on bullet casting generally and especially on what to do and what not to do. Based on my experiences the main issue is mould venting. That is to say that for good mould fill out the air from the mould cavities has to escape easily. Now this doesn't mean that you go and make the mould vent lines even deeper or wider - if your blocks has them. This will give you more problems with fins/hairs on the mould parting lines. There are more subtle easier ways of ensuring that the air can escape easily.
Here are some hints/tips worth considering:
a) I never get really good consistent mould fill-out if the pour holes on the sprue plate are much less than 0.20".
b) Tighten the sprue plate just enough that when you tip the closed mould blocks to one side by 90° the sprue plate will just swing open due to gravitational force alone.
c) Examine the top inside edges of your mould blocks. If they are very sharp and the edges have not been broken or chamfered. Take a fine Arkansas stone and draw across at a 45° angle to break those edges. Usually 2 or 3 passes are enough.
d) When pouring with a ladle use a technique so that the first amount of lead goes directly into the cavities without blocking the pour holes on the sprue plate completely since this impedes the air venting! Also don't let the molten lead run in off the sprue plate since this slight cooling of the melt could well may cause those nose wrinkles you observed, although the mould blocks are basically warm enough. Also the rate at which the cavities are filled is also important. If filled too quickly the mould doesn't fill out too well before the sprues are formed and then the air cannot escape. Similarly, if the mould fill is too slowly you might not get enough agitation in the cavities and bullets might not be homogeneous. Often indicated by feint lines on the cast bullet. Not to be confused with stronger lines resulting from cold mould blocks!

Basically the first three points above are also to ensure that your mould is in a position the let the air escape without too much difficulty. These conditions will work when the melt temperature and mould blocks are quite cool. I find bullet consistency ( visual appearance, diameter and weight ) to be best when neither melt or mould blocks are too hot. Also I get better productivity and less problems with lead smears on the underside of the sprue plate or bullets refusing to drop from the cavities with these conditions.

I use a special releasing agent to coat the top mould faces and the underside of the sprue plate to help avoid any galling. You can also use a plain soap bar ( without all those cosmetic oils and perfume ingredients) sold here in Germany for washing down plain wooden table tops. This stays a lot longer on those moving surfaces than other proprietary products or bees and/or candle waxes. I don't use a wooden mallet or such to open the sprue plate. I have an extra thick glove similar to a welder's glove for this. If I am casting very hard bullets say with straight linotype then just break the sprues immediately the sprues shows that Jack Frost patterning but only open the sprue fully after allowing to cool for further 5-10 seconds to avoid any alloy smears on those contact surfaces. IF your casting pure lead or low tin/antimony alloy then you cant often open the sprue almost as soon as the sprues have set without any problem.

Hope this is of some help.
Best regards,
Adrian, Germany.

[Old Caster]

I much prefer to "pressure pour" everything I do whether it is ladle or bottom pour. The size of the bullet you are casting means that the pour should go faster or slower if using bottom pour. With ladle just pour away because dirt hardly ever gets dumped in a mould because you are constantly moving it around. I will always go with as slow of a pour speed as I can get away with on a bottom pour so dirt has a chance to rise to the top and go out into the sprue or otherwise you will too often see that little speck of dirt right in the base. Sometimes the dirt will be covered with a very tiny sheet of lead and if you press on it with a pointed object the dirt will be exposed and it might be bigger than you think. If this is happening, turn down the pour speed. Out of about 40 moulds I have, maybe 4 or 5 don't like to be pressure poured because either fins on the edges show up or the base gets large by squirting out by the sprue plate to make a fin on the back. Either way it is caused by poor fit of the plate or the mould not being square on the edges. If this is the case, it might work to reduce the column height of your alloy so there isn't so much pressure. When I cast 100 grain 32's I like a low column height of about 2 inches of alloy but usually for other bullets it is twice that.

[44man]

I never figured a ladle was "pressure" pour. I like the name "lead feed" better. Let the boolit take molten lead from the ladle as the boolit hardens.

[MikeS]

FirstBrit: I don't know what your 'special releasing agent' is, but many here have found using a mould lube called BullPlate or ones that are similar work very well, and will stop lead streaks from forming on the tops of mould blocks. It's some form of synthetic oil, not soap based, and I've never before heard anyone using soap for that purpose.

[Old Caster]

Jim, The reason I called that kind of ladle casting pressure pour was to differentiate from the way that some people just pour the lead into the mould while the holes are facing up and no contact between the mould and the ladle. When pressure pour ladle casting your pressure is only the column height of whatever is in your ladle which isn't much and depends on what size ladle you use. Mine holds about 2 ounces of metal so it is about an inch or so. Another advantage is as you point out, the molten metal stays at the top of the mould longer which is also another reason besides fillout that I use pressure pour when am bottom casting. -- Bill --

[mroliver77]

One thing I like about LBT moulds is the huge sprue volume of the stamped sprue plate. Another thing is the venting of the top of the mould. None of my LBT have ever needed pressure casting.

I have always used the Lyman ladle just as the OP suggested except mould stays horizontal while removing the ladle.
J

[44man]

Jim, The reason I called that kind of ladle casting pressure pour was to differentiate from the way that some people just pour the lead into the mould while the holes are facing up and no contact between the mould and the ladle. When pressure pour ladle casting your pressure is only the column height of whatever is in your ladle which isn't much and depends on what size ladle you use. Mine holds about 2 ounces of metal so it is about an inch or so. Another advantage is as you point out, the molten metal stays at the top of the mould longer which is also another reason besides fillout that I use pressure pour when am bottom casting. -- Bill --
OUCH, OUCH, OUCH!:veryconfu I have been sitting here rubbing lube in a pile of .44 boolits and my finger hurts. I have lube on the keyboard too.
Anyway, molten lead is a liquid so it can't be compressed so even a ton above it will not make it more dense. Even a small amount in a ladle is enough to force out air as is just pouring from a height. Both can make good boolits.
The big problem is the sprue can set up before the boolit has enough lead due to shrinkage. As the boolit shrinks it is better to have more molten lead for it to draw from.
That is the only reason I mate the ladle to the plate and hold it for a short time before tipping off the ladle. If you bottom pour and hold the mold to the spout, lead level in the pot means nothing, boolits will not contain more lead from a full pot or one almost empty and boolits will not weigh different. Too much hydraulic pressure will just force lead into the air vents. Guys, you can not compress a liquid. A full pot does not make a boolit heavier! A full ladle is no different then one half full. Once the mold is full all that is needed is to feed more lead as the boolit cools and shrinks and nothing you can do will increase the final amount. You can add so much pressure the lead can squirt from the sides, out of the vents but the boolit will not be denser.
All that is needed is to remove the air and feed the boolit.
You can pressure the air out but you will not pressure the boolit.
Some keep pouring from a height to feed the boolit by keeping the sprue molten but that is just making a mess and is counter productive. It does no more then holding the ladle in place without a leak.

[Old Caster]

Jim, You are :veryconfu

[44man]

Jim, You are :veryconfu
Yep and OLD too! :bigsmyl2:

[FirstBrit]

FirstBrit: I don't know what your 'special releasing agent' is, but many here have found using a mould lube called BullPlate or ones that are similar work very well, and will stop lead streaks from forming on the tops of mould blocks. It's some form of synthetic oil, not soap based, and I've never before heard anyone using soap for that purpose.

Hello Mike,
The special releasing agent is called "Gleitmo 825" from Fuchs Lubritech ( www.fuchs-lubritech.com). They are a little cagey when they talk about product composition. Before I cottoned on to this product I used plain bar soap commonly known here in Germany as "Kernseife" The melting point of the main component soap is probably over 200°C which is why I think is the it performs so well in this paricular application. With normal mould temperatures it doesn't melt and hence won't contaminate the cavities. It also stays in place longer and is not burnt off so quickly like all the othher waxes around. I find it is also more effective at preventing lead smears on the mould faces than say Grapite, Mica or MoS² especially if used for extended casting sessions. When I'm using the large Magma machine I need to re-dress the mould faces every 2-4 hours depening on melt temperature and alloy. Applying soap to these areas is a little difficult and if mould block temperatures get too high there is a tendency for the soap to turn brown ( first signs of thermal decomposition I believe) With the Glitmo paste I can apply this more easily with a small brush although you have to be more creful about getting the Gleitmo in the mould cavities. If the cavities get contaminated it won't purge itself, you have to clean the hot mould blocks which is no fun either.

Best regards,
Adrian-Germany.
(www.riflebulletcaster.com)