Wolf problem documentary

[mtnman31]

http://cryingwolfmovie.com/

Documentary about the wolf problem plaguing Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. It is a documentary and of course has an agenda but, I feel it is particularly of interest to residents of those states as well as hunters, ranchers and outdoors men alike. I can say from a personal perspective that the hunting in Montana has definitely experienced a major decline since I was a kid and my grandpa introduced me to hunting. I personally know ranchers and outfitters that are dealing with the wolves and their sentiments echo many of those in the video. The documentary is from the perspective of those affected by wolf reintroduction and not from the distant perspective of politicians and city dwelling environmentalists.

Warning - It's an hour long, not some 30 second youtube blog. Well worth it if this subject interests you.

Mods, if this would be appropriate in another forum, feel free to move it.

[Bret4207]

We have eco-preservationists back here that want to reintroduce wolves. Why? I have no idea since we already have a very large coyote population, and our coyotes are large too- 60 pounds and upwards ins;t uncommon at all. DNA research verifies they have wolf DNA. Why do we need another major predator? No reason at all other than the city peoples wish to hear a freakin' wolf howl.

Funny, when I was "debating" this idea with some of the eco-preservationist types I suggested that if they wanted to reintorduce a native species they should look at Elk. They had absolutely ZERO interest in that. So there is an agenda here, I don't understand it, but it's there.

[Bad Water Bill]

Very interesting and educational.

Thanks for taking your time to find and post it here.

[jsizemore]

Funny, when I was "debating" this idea with some of the eco-preservationist types I suggested that if they wanted to reintorduce a native species they should look at Elk. They had absolutely ZERO interest in that. So there is an agenda here, I don't understand it, but it's there.

I think their argument will be that the wolves and coyotes will keep the prey species in check and there's no need for us to hunt and have a firearm. If you listen to the Dems they say there is no reason for folks to own an assault rifle or 'street sweeper' shotgun since it wouldn't be used for hunting. All my guns are for use on vamints regardless of how many legs they use to get around.

[RugerFan]

I think their argument will be that the wolves and coyotes will keep the prey species in check and there's no need for us to hunt and have a firearm.

Exactly. That has always been my take on wolf reintroduction. Mostly an anti-hunting angle.

[fatnhappy]

We have eco-preservationists back here that want to reintroduce wolves. Why? I have no idea since we already have a very large coyote population, and our coyotes are large too- 60 pounds and upwards ins;t uncommon at all. DNA research verifies they have wolf DNA. Why do we need another major predator? No reason at all other than the city peoples wish to hear a freakin' wolf howl.

Funny, when I was "debating" this idea with some of the eco-preservationist types I suggested that if they wanted to reintorduce a native species they should look at Elk. They had absolutely ZERO interest in that. So there is an agenda here, I don't understand it, but it's there.

FYI Brett, in case you weren't already aware, the reintroduction of Elk is being talked about in NY. There was a series of public meetings locally on a specific plan to reintroduce them in the Catskills or finger lakes.
The following is from the DEC website.


Fish and Wildlife Species Restorations

During the last half century there have been several major success stories of wildlife restoration in New York. These include among others the woodduck, and wild turkey (70 kb pdf) which were either at very low levels or absent from New York and now are common. Others include the bald eagle, which was recently downlisted from endangered to threatened in NY, and the peregrine falcon which has been returned to many areas of NY. Other efforts, such as the attempted restoration of lynx in conjunction with SUNY in the 1980's, have not resulted in successful restoration.

There are currently active restoration efforts ongoing for river otter in Western New York and the bog turtle in the Hudson Valley. In addition, we are currently working with the lake sturgeon, round whitefish, and paddlefish (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on paddlefish restoration).

At the current time, there are proposals from private organizations to restore the wolf to the Adirondacks (biological feasibility study now available) and elk to the southern tier of New York. There are ongoing studies to determine if either of these proposals are biologically feasible and socially acceptable. In response to interest in moose several years ago, the Department proposed speeding the return of moose to Northern New York. While biologically feasible, there was not adequate public support for an active restoration program and so the moose is being allowed to return naturally (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on the status of moose in New York).

[MtGun44]

If the wolves kill all the "excess" deer, elk and moose, then nobody will be doing any
signifcant amount of hunting, so the whole 'gun culture' shrivels and dies in 50-75 yrs.

Bill

[Harter66]

I'm wondering how much that earth 1st anti capitalism fella makes every year .

I always thought bringing the wolves back was a bad idea for the reasons mentioned I didn't know it was that bad. I do know that the hunting all over has delined .

If there's no room for hunting w/a healthy wolf population how'd all those Native Americans get by? Oh right I remember , by taming and training wolves to hunt wolves. I have no facts to back that up but I'm pretty confident I can pay somebody enough to make it true.

Its funny in a way that all I see any more is some hidden plan and white wash bs. Why just this morning it occured to me that while Einstien was a genius he was also a (potentialy) a PO'd man of Jewish birth looking for retribution. I've always given everything benefit of doubt and worked to see both sides but more and more I don't give tinkers dam if there's another side . Is just 1 more example of all that's wrong.

[cgtreml]

Excellent video. Hope everyone watches it. Very informative. If it hasn't affected you yet it will.

[Bret4207]

FYI Brett, in case you weren't already aware, the reintroduction of Elk is being talked about in NY. There was a series of public meetings locally on a specific plan to reintroduce them in the Catskills or finger lakes.
The following is from the DEC website.


Fish and Wildlife Species Restorations

During the last half century there have been several major success stories of wildlife restoration in New York. These include among others the woodduck, and wild turkey (70 kb pdf) which were either at very low levels or absent from New York and now are common. Others include the bald eagle, which was recently downlisted from endangered to threatened in NY, and the peregrine falcon which has been returned to many areas of NY. Other efforts, such as the attempted restoration of lynx in conjunction with SUNY in the 1980's, have not resulted in successful restoration.

There are currently active restoration efforts ongoing for river otter in Western New York and the bog turtle in the Hudson Valley. In addition, we are currently working with the lake sturgeon, round whitefish, and paddlefish (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on paddlefish restoration).

At the current time, there are proposals from private organizations to restore the wolf to the Adirondacks (biological feasibility study now available) and elk to the southern tier of New York. There are ongoing studies to determine if either of these proposals are biologically feasible and socially acceptable. In response to interest in moose several years ago, the Department proposed speeding the return of moose to Northern New York. While biologically feasible, there was not adequate public support for an active restoration program and so the moose is being allowed to return naturally (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on the status of moose in New York).

I happened to be in the Tahawus Upper Works the day they helo'd a lynx onto a mountain top. They put the lynx in an area where they had no prey other than red squirrels, porkies and Blue Jays. naturally the lynx beat feet outta there and all got hit on I-87 IIRC. Dumb.

I note they want to put the wolves in Northern NY where we already have large predators, coyotes, bear and cougar, but to put the elk in the south. Figures.

[btroj]

We have way to many biologists and others working in these agencies who don't have any first hand knowledge of or experience in the wild. They know what their books say but they have never been to the area nor have they spent time in the outdoors.
This is an example of book knowledge and "studies" having little relevance in the real world.

I see the same right now in northern MO. River otters were reintroduced to a few small streams. The otters soon found that the local farm ponds made for much easier fishing. Ever think aout how quickly a 6 acre pond is whipped out for fishing when an adult male otter eats aout 2.5 to 3 pounds of fish a day? Luckily my father can get depredation permits from the local game warden. Many otters have met their demise in that pond.

[Olevern]

If the wolves kill all the "excess" deer, elk and moose, then nobody will be doing any
signifcant amount of hunting, so the whole 'gun culture' shrivels and dies in 50-75 yrs.

Bill

plus one,

The antis are dedicated to their cause even if it takes that long, they have been suffering setbacks in the near term, so are looking out long term for any way to reduce us and our influence.

[montana_charlie]

Its funny in a way that all I see any more is some hidden plan and white wash bs.
It's probably been ten years since there was much talk about 'The Buffalo Commons', but I bet that crowd is still out there ... and trying to work us in that direction.

I just never figured out where they intended to put all of those people who had to disappear ...

CM

[Bad Water Bill]

It's probably been ten years since there was much talk about 'The Buffalo Commons', but I bet that crowd is still out there ... and trying to work us in that direction.

I just never figured out where they intended to put all of those people who had to disappear ...

CM

Real easy solution.

In the TOMB STONE GARDEN
Somewhere 20 miles back in Yellowstone.

Pine caskets and NO headstone. Very environmentally friendly. Might even do away with the caskets and save some more trees

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't worry about it, by the sounds of it you won't be able to shoot/hunt on public land anyways.....You guys are getting a taste of the kind of government we have here in Kanuckistan.

[Bob Krack]

Wow, I don't know what to say 'cept----

Wolf populations control Coyote populations. BUT - which is the larger problem?

Wolf is not a "bad" critter, just don't fit in with human nor domestic animal populations.

Nomex on, but NOT advocating wolf re-introduction anywhere in the lower 48.

Bob

[MtGun44]

If you read Lewis and Clark, the non-agricultural Indians were often starving, and game
was very scarce in the plains and most of the foothills. Also, they nearly starved to death
on pure deer and elk meat, no fat and only protein will kill you eventually. ONly the Mandan,
who were an agricultural + hunting people with excellent land and stable large villages were doing
really well.

Wolves keep the grazers, other than buffalo, WAY, WAY down from where our current levels
are.

I hunted HARD on horseback, mostly in snow, for a full week just south of Yellowstone a few years
ago and we saw ZERO elk tracks, a few dozen deer tracks, 1 set of moose tracks and lots of wolf and
bear tracks in the snow. Some days we covered almost 40 miles, which a bunch of you know is a
dawn to dark a$$ buster in the saddle all day trying to cut a trail of elk. One in our party saw ONE
elk in low country, out of the snow, we saw no other sign. The outfitters quit that country after
40 yrs and 2 generations of making money bringing in hunters. Wolves did it the worst right
at Yellowstone, because that is where they were the densest. Reports then were of elk being pushed
way west into flat ag country in Idaho to get away from the wolves.

Bill

[jsizemore]

Around 2000 we went to Ridgway, Pa for a shoot. Booked the room late and had to stay in St Mary's a short drive through the mountains. We had to stop for the elk crossing the road since they were the size of cattle. When we stopped to eat breakfast before going to the range we asked the locals how they liked the elk being reintroduced to the area. Most folks didn't like the obvious car crashes but especially disliked their gardens being wiped out overnight by roaming herds. They said it cost more to build a fence that was strong enough to keep them out then what they saved going to the grocery store. Big varmints for the city folks to look at when their on vacation.

[trench]

Most gunowners don't hunt anyway, and it's been that way for decades. Most owners own only pistols, and most of them don't shoot them at all. They have a .25 Raven or a Bryco 380, and that's that.

[mtnman31]

I think the overall point isn't whether gun owners hunt, use their guns regularly, or even that wolves could somehow lead to future anti-gun legislation. One of the main points is that folks living in other areas and states are making decisions that impact the folks living in the areas where wolves have had an adverse impact. People in wolf reintroduction areas are left to deal with the problems created by other people with little to no real interest in the communities affected. How would some fellow in Florida feel about a group of people who don't go to the beach and live in Oklahoma pushing to get a couple hundred great white sharks dumped off the coast? (not a perfect comparison but you get the point) The tourism industry would likely suffer in the areas where the sharks are put in. That would leave the locals trying to find a different way to make a living and dealing with the sharks. How fair to the locals would that be...

I think the real political message in this whole situation is that the federal government needs to step back and let states manage themselves.

[thxmrgarand]

Here in Alaska the pro-wolf people are definitely those who believe that only Native Americans have any right to hunt, fish or to use motorized transportation devices off-road e.g. outboard motors, 4-wheelers, small aircraft. Typically these people had never set foot in the woods until college when they were in some sort of mountaineering and kayaking club. When they discovered that white Americans regularly used the woods to hunt and fish they became very distressed and became environmental activists. Many that live in Alaska are called remittance people - folks from large industrial and retail sales families that receive checks from home life-long. An American environmentalist whose parents didn't go to college is very rare, and I have never met one whose parents had not gone to high school. If you pull yourself up and are highly successful, accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars, and don't take the time to see that your children understand hard work then apparently your children will be lifelong environmentalists, Democrats, and wolf-howlers; at least that is what I have observed.

By the way, Alaska Natives support predator control and they trap wolves. They very regularly resist the overtures of the well-funded environmental organizations.

I like wolves as I like all wildlife. My duck dog tries to climb into my coat when we run on to the trail of a few wolves or when I howl one up at night however.

Wolf packs in Alaska, for instance in the Denali National Park and surrounding area, are documented to have as many as 18 animals for extended period of time. Notwithstanding Kevin Costner, Robert Redford and Farley Mowat, 18 wolves cannot and do not over-winter on mice and voles. Not very long ago wolves killed and ate a teacher from PA who was jogging near a village airport.

The Robert Redford view of nature, as promulgated incessantly by Public Broadcasting and other outfits, would have us believe that wolves keep prey populations healthy. That is a political rather than a scientific theory.

I believe that those who see re-introduction of wolves as a way to end hunting have it right. This is one class of Americans wanting to impose their will upon another class of Americans.

The National Rifle Association has been very active and articulate on this issue. Politicians listen to the NRA, and we are lucky to have the NRA.

[blackthorn]

Quote "Typically these people had never set foot in the woods until college when they were in some sort of mountaineering and kayaking club. When they discovered that white Americans regularly used the woods to hunt and fish they became very distressed and became environmental activists. Many that live in Alaska are called remittance people - folks from large industrial and retail sales families that receive checks from home life-long. An American environmentalist whose parents didn't go to college is very rare, and I have never met one whose parents had not gone to high school. If you pull yourself up and are highly successful, accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars, and don't take the time to see that your children understand hard work then apparently your children will be lifelong environmentalists, "

My friend calls these people "Cadilac Socialists".

Maybe the answer is "SSS"! (for the wolves at least).

[10x]

When wolves become a problem and people object to dealing with that problem - live trap the wolves and transport them to the areas where those objectors live and release the wolves.
Problem solved.

Wolves have decimated the moose, deer, and elk population where I own a farm. Ten years ago there were at least twenty deer per square mile. Several wolf packs have moved about five years ago and coupled with deep snow the deer population is 1 to 2 per 4 square miles.
That means that the wolves will be turning to livestock in the next few months.

Transporting and releasing surplus wolves in the urban areas where they are revered and loved will solve several urban problems - feral pets will disappear, pet owners will keep their pets indoors, the homeless just may decide to find homes, juveniles will not longer wander the streets after dark, how ever wolves may be at addiction risk from junkies who shoot up and pass out.
BTW: Girls wearing red cloaks with hoods just may not go to Grandmas house anymore either. ...

[mtnman31]

I wonder how the law would address someone live trapping a wolf and "reintroducing" it to another area? Interesting thought. If a wolf is protected in Idaho and Montana, it should be afforded the same protection if it were to show up in Washington D.C. They couldn't call it a threat until it actually attacked someone or their pet...

[10x]

I wonder how the law would address someone live trapping a wolf and "reintroducing" it to another area? Interesting thought. If a wolf is protected in Idaho and Montana, it should be afforded the same protection if it were to show up in Washington D.C. They couldn't call it a threat until it actually attacked someone or their pet...

Several packs of wolves roaming the streets and alleys of Washing D.C. would be appreciated by the locals who love wolves - and the rest of the nation could watch the experiment with interest and amusement.

[Bullet Caster]

Very intriguing movie. At one time I was all for reintroducing the wolf to Yellowstone. However, the wolf had no intention in staying in Yellowstone. Now they're moving even to other states, effecting and decimating wild game herds to the point of states loosing their rights to self govern their own state. In my opinion I think this has become a problem not only for the fish and wildlife commission but for the common ranch farmer who has a lot more to loose as wolves start reducing herds. I have since changed my mind about wolf reintroduction. I don't like environmentalists or any other "tree huggers" for that matter. When the wolf becomes a problem to someone's livelyhood then it's time to make a few unconventional decisions about wolf populations. If it were me that lived on a ranch in Wyoming or Wisconsin, I'd definitely be putting down every wolf I came into contact. I agree with Mtnman31 and the rest of you who feel the wolf should be repatriated into urban areas for them to get a good look at this preditor and what befalls them would be their own recourse. If you want to hear a wolf howl, then get yourself a malamute dog. Mine used to howl nearly every night to the point it was beginning to annoy the neighbors. Respectfully submitted, BC

[josper]

Exactly. That has always been my take on wolf reintroduction. Mostly an anti-hunting angle.

+1 on this idea.This is my take on the issue also. Here in western Mass. we have some very large coyotes ,as big as a large german shepards and they are taking down deer.Because of this they issue very few doe permits because the deer herd is shrinking in our area.

[josper]

The vedio on this site has expired,you can still buy the DVD if you wish.To bad the word needs to be spread.

[Ole]

If their goal was to get the word out, they failed. I guess they cared more about selling DVD's.

[contender1]

mtnman31 has a good point. I've had the pleasure of visiting the west many times, and spoken with "locals" while there. I've often heard of how yuppie eco-freaks from Cali go to other states, change the laws, and then leave. One paticular time it was about wildfires, and the laws preventing the use of machinery to control it due to "no vehicle access" laws in many areas. It's the same with wolves. They want to have the wolves, just not in their backyard. I say we re-introduce them in the urban eco-freak areas where fluffy & fido become the food of choice for them first.
And yes, it is a longterm plan to have the wolves kill off the big game we hunt & manage. That way we have fewer hunters, and fewer gun people. Then they can (maybe) beat us in the political arena. It's so obvious that the areas of re-introduction have exceeded the planned carrying capaicity numbers THEY wanted, yet THEY do not want the wolves de-listed, hunted & managed. I've often wondered what the wolves will do when the deer & elk are gone? Maybe they will dine on fluffy & fido in town, and THEN we'll be able to manage them properly.

[Bad Water Bill]

Back in 1971 I was at Yellowstone for the great migration from there to Jackson Hole.

Miles and miles of nothing but wilderness separated the 2 places. A few years ago I saw some videos of the same area. I could not believe my eyes. All of the wonderful wilderness had been replaced by what looked like million dollar homes for the rich and famous.

The reason for the video was to show how those nasty elk were daring to walk down THEIR streets, eating THEIR pretty flowers, placing waste piles on THEIR lawns etc.

I simply said the elk were there first so what do you expect them to do, go down the alley. :violin:

Well now most of the elk are gone so maybe they will be happy. I am glad that I got a chance to see the migration BUT sorry that no grandchildren will ever have that same pleasure.

[429421Cowboy]

I have seen first hand the economic hit to the ranching community as well as the big game outfitter's as they overlap. Our neighbors lost 200 head of sheep this spring before a kill permit was issued and a pair of wolves was taken. 2000 head of sheep owned, 200 lost to wolves alone, that doesn't even figure the typical losses for the year. I have seen them make huge impacts on the game population in many areas as well as found evidence of them far from their recognised range. The wolf hunt also has not been what it should be, the original plan was that the wolves close to ranches would be the ones to get shot, thus the problems would be reduced however it has largely been the backcountry wolves that have been brought out. I've got the homemade SSS hitch cover that shows how i feel about them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My additional .02 to this discussion is about the liberal mantra to deal with any problem. "Let's chip away at it until it's gone!"

I was floored when I heard Chuck Schumer a NY Senator state that "we are just chipping away at the Second Ammendment, sooner or later it will fall, and then we can all be safe from guns"

This kind of dedication to the destruction of the Constitution is blatant TREASON! But it also perfectly illustrates the ultimate goal of the Liberal mind, which is the complete destruction of Freedom. And they don't care how long it takes! They will just continue to chip away at the Constitution until it is meaningless. They must be stopped!

I see a Major Civil War coming to this country, without which it will not survive. Sooner or later, if the country is to survive, the insanity of politics which is tainted by , and more properly the liberal mindset itself, must be eliminated from our culture. At least smashed into submission, as you can never completely eliminate discontent. Schools that teach this insanity are the breeding grounds for this idiocy. I am reminded of it nearly everyday by the Evening News. The stupider people are the easier they are to control. Perfect example is the influx of Mexicans to this country. They are among the easiest people in this hemisphere to control as withnessed by their country that they have let slide into complete corruption.

The whole motivation of the average liberal minded individual is Utopia. However their modus operundi and their "end justifies the means" attitude, will result in the ultimate iteration of slavery.

This is all because they are too stupid to realize they are being used by the forces that would kill this, and every other free society.

There is only two choices,,, Freedom, or Slavery. There can be no common ground that will survive the test of time. In order to preserve freedom once it has been achieved for all, all attacks on it must be dealt with in a very decisive manner.

Unfortunately when "the civilized mindset " creeps into the mix, it becomes more and more difficult to defend against the onslought of "pussification".

This is where this country is right now. It's called "the Pussification of America"

Only with strong leadership that can shift this country back significantly into the conservative direction, will the country survive.

The true conservative mindset wants slow and deliberate change as the needs of time dictate. This is rational thought.

The liberal mind is driven by insanity, it seeks change for the sake of change, with no regard as to the consiquences of it's actions. And why should it care about the consiquences,,,

it's ultimate goal is chaos!

There is no intelligent arguement to the contrary of these facts that I have put forth above.

When ever I see the liberal mind at work changing that which he doesn't understand, I am reminded of the last line from Socrates' assessment of the human condition.

"He who knows not, that he knows not, is a fool,,, shun him."

Randy

[waksupi]

There was a rancher talking about the wolves on the radio this morning. He said the government trappers didn't have the funding to trap as many coyotes as necessary, and now they have the wolves dumped on them.

[Bad Water Bill]

Why don't they INVITE the crew from CAST BOOLITS to help out? No license required and we keep the hides. Problem solved and it cost the gov 0 [smilie=w:[smilie=w:



We shoot when ever the critters eat.:bigsmyl2:


24-7-365

[mpmarty]

We here in rural Oregon subscribe to the SSS credo. It works just fine on Wolves, Coyotes and Turkeys as well as Californians.

[10x]

We here in rural Oregon subscribe to the SSS credo. It works just fine on Wolves, Coyotes and Turkeys as well as Californians.

Would you like some recipes for bald eagle and condor?

[FN in MT]

Anyone recall the big Gardiner elk hunt we used to have not all that many years ago? I went twice to assist friends fortunate enough to get a permit...to clean and load their elk.

Went in 1990 and the amount of elk was amazing...literally hundrreds of them...in a near constant stream to lower, less snow covered country.

Since the wolves have been introduced...NO need for the Gardiner hunt anymore. Simply not enough elk in the area. Lots of wolves though.

Western MT is about the same. Hunt for elk during the fall rut...blow a cow call or bugle...a wolf will show up far more frequently than and elk.

I know several Ranchers who had stock killed by grizzly bears as well as wolves. The "Reintroduce the Wolves" and the "Grizzly Bear Alliance" folks are NEVER anywhere to be seen when it comes to PAY for the losses.

I believe the wolf reintroduction was a back door move to kill hunting here in the West. The wolves are Doing a good job of it.

FN in MT