To all my Front Sight skeptics?

[W.R.Buchanan]

This got off topic on another hijacked thread so I'm putting it up here for others to see as there were several detractors on the other thread.

To all my Front Sight skeptics:

I went to my Pistol Class last Friday at Front Sight in Pahrump NV, and was blessed with a class of 38 that produced 14 Distinguished Grads and 24 Grads. Nobody failed the skills test at the end of 2 days of intense shooting and coaching from the best group of instructors I have had yet.

We had nobody who was even chastized once for safety.

What did I expect to get?

I got way more than I expected. My draw is now pretty fast and consistant and it was sloppy before. I will sweep up in my next IDPA shoot with ease!

Brass loss? I shot nearly 500 rounds of ammo with My Glock 35. All the brass that was left is scrapped not reloaded, as it is usually ground up pretty bad from laying in gravel and being walked on by 40 people for several days. I wouldn't reload any of it. Nobody was snivelling about lost brass.
Once again you can't have a safe shooting environment with 40 people on their hands and knees grabbing brass off the ground, and also they would never finish the ciriculum in time. You can't control a range that way, and you must control the range or you get accidents.

We shot from 9:00 AM until 5:00 PM on Friday and 8:00 am until 5:00 pm on Saturday. I was seriously tired by noon on Saturday! Then we shot the skills test.

The skills test goes like this.

2 shots to the chest from 3 yds in 1.3 seconds.
2 at 5 yds in 1.5sec.
2 at 7 yds in 1.9 sec
2 at 10 yds in 2.1 sec
2 at 15 yds in 2.9 sec.

Designated head shot from the holster in 1.9 sec at 5 yds, done 5 times

Designated head shot from the holster in 2.1 sec at 7 yds, done 5 times.

Plus a few others I forgot about. 35 shots total.

I did not fail to get off a single shot, and in fact had time to spare on every string.

Then we did 5 different malfunction drills twice each and I cleaned them.

Shots in the zone are no loss, shots out of the zone but on the body are -3 each, and shots off the body are -5 each. Head shots off the head are -5

I dropped 36 points in the shooting portion. Graduation was 38 points dropped and Distinguished grad is drop less than 12. 4 hits outside of the designated chest area or head box will drop you 12.

I shot pretty good but can do better as I hadn't practiced intensively, or worked on gun handling per-se' in 1.5 years. If I went back in two weeks I could shoot perfect or very close to it. I got pretty good in a very short period of time.

We had one guy who cleaned the course. 0 points dropped, and his twin brother dropped 3 points which means he was just outside the box on one out of 35 shots. From the holster under time pressure. This is exceptional shooting by anyone who is not a professional shooter, and not bad for anyone who is either.

I got exceptional training and am much better and more aware than I was last Thursday.

As far as having people tell you what to do? If you already know what to do, then why would you want to go to a school? I personally think the first obsticle to training, is figuring out that you don't know what you're doing. Then you can actually learn something. [smilie=b:

We had one guy who was next to me and he was easily in his mid to late 80's and he shot clean and only muffed one malfunction drill. He was the oldest Distinguished Grad they had this weekend and there was 4 advanced classes like the one I was in, running at once, and 4 more classes for newbies running also, for a total of 320+ in Pistol classes alone. Just for Friday and Sat. There was also several Rifle and Shotgun classes going too.

Today there was the same number starting again, and there will be the same again starting Tues!

This place has 80,000+ paying members.

80,000 people don't shell out $2500+ apiece for BS service or shoddy training. We joined because the place works right evertime.

It is simply put,,, "The best run school for anything I have ever been to in my life!"

I might add that Front Sight has more members and attendees than all of the other shooting schools in the US Combined! Right now they are training between 400-800 students Everyday!

If you haven't gone and taken a class, you have no idea what you are missing.

And I must say, only after you have actually been,,, can you criticize.:holysheep

Randy

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Sounds like you must bring your own ammo????
Man, where do all those people get the money to pay that price. It is just out of my price range,unfortunately.:Fire::Fire:

[W.R.Buchanan]

Boom Boom: any School for anything is going to cost money to attend. A shooting school has to have a venue which is away from everything else, and then there is the liability issue. They also have to employ instructors, and have a staff of people to handle everything that makes the place run.

It costs money to do all of this.

Most schools charge $1000-$2000 for any class. With Front Sight you join and you only pay once, and yes you have to bring your own ammo, and you have to find a place to stay as Pahrump NV is out in the sticks.

I originally paid $2500 for my membership 6 years ago. I have taken 15 classes so far. That would have been anywhere between $15,000 and $30,000 at other schools! I'd call that a bargain.

Randy

[kappy]

Congrats. Sounds like a valuable class. If I had enough cash, I'd consider it.

[MtGun44]

Sounds like they dropped the land sales hornswaggle part, which was apparently the
original purpose years ago, kinda like the 'free weekend at the lake' offers that we used
to get around here.

Bill

[gray wolf]

I would go if someone wants to send me, I think Julie and I would truly like it.
It would have to be in one of the warmer months --so plan around that.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gray Wolf: They just did a deal a few weeks ago that was $100 for a first time 2 or 4 day defensive pistol class.

If you watch their website they do give away deals like that frequently and the reason is to get you there so you can see how well they do what they do. They don't have to sell anything , it sells itself. The facility is incredible and they now have 16 ranges, (all were being used this last weekend!) when you go you see this for yourself and also see the literally hundreds of satisfied customers utilizing the facility. This makes you want to join, and believe me if you go once, you WILL want to join.

They are actively looking for a venue back east that can run year round to build another facility so people back east won't have to go cross country to get there. This will build membership even further. Someplace back there that it doesn't snow too much and can be ran year long,,,probably in Florida.

I was there in May and the membership was at 60K , last week it was 82K.

To increase membership 20,000+ in 5 months is pretty exceptional for any business or school.

Bill: Piazza finally found enough investors to comple the entire project and there will be time shares available, as well as honoring the ones that were sold originally. It is growing by leaps and bounds. Most of the bad rap you hear about the place comes from disgruntled early members who bought in and when the place didn't progess as planned (usually due to Lawsuits from these same people) they got mad and went away. I bought and upgrade to Diamond that was foreclosed on (someone didn't pass their background check) for a real deal. Now I can get anything I want, any course they will ever offer, including the Alaska membership, and serious discounts on all Ammo and other pro-shop items etc, etc, and not have to spend another cent other than the yearly background check which is $50. When the RV park is complete next year I won't even have to stay in LV I'll be able to hook up right there.

Me and my Bro in law go 2- 4 times a year, and at a retail cost of $2K per course, we have gotten our money's worth several times over already, and I have another 20 years left going there before I croak. I call that a good investment in my shooting hobby.

There was a guy there this weekend that was flying a RC Helicopter with a movie camera on it around the facility doing a promo video, and it should be on the website soon.

Have a look: www.frontsight.com

Randy

[oldandslow]

WRB, 11/15/11

Glad Frontsight has worked out well for you. Most of the reviews from people who have attended the classes are pretty good.

One thought on the price of the classes- you mention that most schools charge $1000-2000 for any class. That seems quite high to me. I've been to 10 intermediate and advanced/close quarters classes, either 2 or 3 days each. The tuition is from $325-425 per class (Firearms Academy of Seattle and Shivworks). Most other schools I've looked at seem to have similar rates although some of the "big name" schools may charge more since you're paying for the brand as well as the instruction.

best wishes- oldandslow

[fredj338]

They classes are well run & depending on which class, you can learn quite a bit. They are NOT worth the money the advertized rate runs for a 2 or 4day class, not for that high a student/instructor ratio. If you get coupons for $200 or less for a 2day, well worth the money. As for brass recovery, just go at lunch, pick up all you want. It's factory ammo, so the brass down by the target pits is quite reloadable.[smilie=w:

[quilbilly]

I have been on their mailing list for two years. One of these days I will make it down there.

[geargnasher]

Thanks for posting that, Randy.

Mrs. Geargnasher and I are going next year, have had tickets for a while now, just waiting for the next vacation block to come up. One of my best friends is a member, he's been to a couple of the classes and is going for more. It seems that the entire philosophy of Front Site is spot-on, and of all the orginazations supporting responsible gun ownership and use, they have the best approach hands-down to insuring our gun rights remain our rights.

Gear

[bld451]

We started 2 years ago (Wife and I) at the invitation of a friend. Now it's our annual couples' vacation. I had wanted for a while to get her some instruction that involved a "professional", and the timing was right. We have a handgun in the BR, and she wasn't confident with it. Our trips to the range were fun, and safety practiced constantly, but drills weren't in the cards with kids around. She wanted to learn, so I said "Let's go!" It was such a success that during the membership pitch, she turned to me and said "Can we join?"

The 4 day class started slowly for me. (30 yrs experience, including competitively) For her, though, it was total immersion. She got frustrated a couple times with speed of the pace, but good instruction, drills and "peer coaching" kept her on track. Soon, I was being challenged by the drills. I figured that a person can learn in any situation, and kept an open mind. It's a hard job balancing the desires of experienced shooters and rank beginners, and they did it well. Since this was the prerequisite class, starting at the basics is to be expected. Experienced shooters will have a lot of instruction, too. In this environment, you're a fool if you don't at least give a new technique a legitimate try. I learned a couple things that did improve my shooting.

There was one young lady there who couldn't have been 100 pounds wet, and was shooting her boyfriend's Hi-Point 9mm. The instructors didn't berate her or criticize her boyfriend's choice of firearm. They taught her how to use it to it's best effect. That gained the instructors a lot of respect from me. It became evident to her soon enough why her gun was not the best tool for the job. She was a trooper, though, and pushed onward. She did very well during the malfunction drills tests on the last day.

There is a membership sales pitch toward the end of the class, but that is to be expected. No big deal. Not high pressure, and somewhat entertaining. The lectures during lunch and breaks are good, too. I didn't feel they were in left field about anything. Good information, and might keep you out of jail someday.

Bottom line for us is that it is good instruction, and worthwhile time spent getting familiar with your chosen firearm. It's a great way to introduce someone new to shooting if you can get them to go. Secretaries, doctors, teachers, plumbers and about every other stripe will be represented, and the classes are typically full of great people who will support a new shooter. I particularly enjoyed the fact that we were shooting or learning about shooting related things from 8:00 to 5:00 each day. We didn't go there to see Vegas, gamble, or sit around relaxing. We went to shoot, and shoot we did. We were ready for bed after dinner! Ammo will need to be factory, so plan on that expense. (No handloads or boolits, and once fired brass left on the line....oh the thought!) If you don't have a membership, take your ammo with, or make arrangements to purchase off site. That's one area you can save some cash.

Yes, FrontSight is making money on this deal, and yes, Piazza is a marketing hound (You can opt out of the constant email barrage) but that's capitalism. Produce a useful thing for a reasonable price, and voila! Profit. They put their money where their mouth is, though. Putting gun ownership and our right to do so in a positive light, and taking it to the masses, so to speak. I saw a LOT of first time shooters there, and they were ALL having fun and shooting safely. That means they have a high likelihood of representing us well and getting someone else involved.

Whether it's FS or a local school, you owe it to yourself to get some professional training. I highly recommend it. Front Sight is a great learning environment, and you can find deals (Certificates) that help make it affordable.

My .02
B

[ku4hx]

Interesting series of posts. And some interesting comments on the web in general. However ...

It all comes down to value. If you feel you got a good deal and gained something of value to you, then the choice to spend the money and take the time was the right thing to do and was thereby a high value undertaking for you.

If you feel the whole thing is a bad deal then for you it certainly is. Don't take the time and don't spend your money.

One man's trash is another man's treasure sort of thing and value is what it's all about. More power to he who claims good value and has the data to back that claim up.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's the deal; guys. I would not lie to you about something like this.

This place is the best run school of any kind I have ever attended.

This place has more highly trained and qualified instructors than any other place in the country. Most are ex military or LE, but all are retrained by Front Sight to deliver the Front Sight product in a consistant manner with no "Military, or strict discipline" type of instruction. They mould you into form, rather than beat you into form.

The place has more paid members than all other schools in the US combined!

The place delivers everything they promise and more.

At the end of the day you can only criticize someone for NOT delivering what they promise.

Like others and I have stated, there are deals to be had just for the asking, and the membership cost is easily justified by the unlimited use policy.

I realize that many don't live within driving distance of this venue, but don't frett, soon there will be another venue on the Eastern Seaboard so you'll be able to go there.

The one point that bld451 mentioned that I did not is the fact that the intention of Front Sight is to permanently change the immage of gun ownership in this country. They do that by creating competant gun owners who are confident and will defend their right to own a firearm.

How many gun owners do you know that are not even members of the NRA?

I personally feel that all gun owners should be forced to join the NRA when they purchase a gun, because if they are going to excercise their right to own a gun they should stand up and be counted and not hide in the shadows. I'm sure most will agree.

Harley Davidson was very successful back in the 80's and 90's at changing the image of the motorcycle street rider from that of a dirty neck biker outlaw type, to a respectable pursuit for families and people of the middle class. They did that by including people from all walks of life, but emphicized bringing in people of means because "people of means" spend money and can help the cause. An example of their success was shown at the HOG "Harley Owners Group" meeting that I showed up for thinking it was my gun club meeting that nite.

My gun club has 900+ members and the monthly meetings generally have 50-60 members actually show up. The HOG meeting had 500 in attendance! And I was blown away seeing that kind of participation! I doubt there is any "motorcycle control legislation" being drawn up

We need every possible way of making more people step up and support gun ownership in this country. There is easily 100 million gun owners in this country, but where are they hiding?

Since we haven't had a WAR in this country for 150 or so years the liberal mindset has been allowed to propagate to the point that they "nearly" are in control. Gun Owners that stand up for their rights will make it so this never happens, as if it does, the country will fall.

Just look at how far we have sank on this guys watch.

I am only asking that you have a look. If this one is not for you then,,, find one that is!

The more people that get trained and become competant shooters the less chance there is of this country failing.

We are the second "freeist" country in this world. And this is solely because we are allowed to own guns.

Switzerland is the freeist country in the world,,,, Because they are MADE TO OWN GUNS!

Randy

[mpmarty]

Unfortunately Switzerland is now starting on gun control also. I would think this is due to influence from the UN.

[geargnasher]

Here's the deal; guys. I would not lie to you about something like this. [snip]

The one point that bld451 mentioned that I did not is the fact that the intention of Front Sight is to permanently change the immage of gun ownership in this country. They do that by creating competant gun owners who are confident and will defend their right to own a firearm.

How many gun owners do you know that are not even members of the NRA?
[snip]
Randy

That was what my friend was telling me about the place. He also told me of some very innovative policies of the man in charge, particularly his public interview policy. As I remember he will agree to a media interview any time, anywhere, but only on one strict condition: That the interviewer first complete a full-auto training course, on the house of course. He has never had a negative interview that I know of. Changing clueless, leftist reporters attitudes one at a time.

Gear

[bld451]

Gear, it is really fun to see the smile (giggle, almost) develop on the face of a liberal reporter when she realizes that she has just safely shot a MACHINEGUN. In the company of regular folks, no less. Yes, his interview policy is very well thought out and produces great results. Any of us who has taken a new shooter through the feelings of fear and apprehension to the elation of competence has seen this. How much better that she was a reporter who would very likely have bashed any one of us in a standard interview.

Thanks for the test samples. Got 'em loaded up and ready to test this weekend, hopefully.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I go to Pahrump twice a year, for a couple of weeks in the spring and then for a couple in the fall. The elevation is around 2800 ft. It gets somewhat hot in the summer, but not as hot as Vegas. There are 5 Small Casinos. Two of them have accomadations. There are five nice RV parks that I know of and several small ones scattered out in the valley. There is a nice fairly new Super Walmart, a Smiths super market, a number of fast food places and mini marts. I would not want to live there but it's a pretty good place to go and meet my cousin and sometimes other relitives, you can kind of let you hair down and just have a lot of fun. There are a lot of places you can go sight seeing. Death Valley is about 50 miles away. Vegas down town about 60. There are some hot springs about 30 miles over in California, China Ranch Date Farm is about 5 miles from the hot springs. Lots of places to go shoot and Nevada is a gun friendly state.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gear: Prominant reporters on that list are Diane Sawyer, Colin Edwards, and quite a few other committed Left Wing News Media types. And they certainly do change their tune after the course don't they.

My personal favorite was Lori Dhue, formerly of Fox News, not a left winger by any stretch, but definately Good Lookin' shootin' an Uzi! And she exibited a really pretty smile while loading her magazines for the next relay.

Really, when you get right down to it most all people inherantly like guns, they might be a little scared at first, but when they get a little taste of the power in their hand, they usually end up with a big smile on their face.

Randy

[Blake Stephenson]

Here is the other side. I have been there and was unimpressed. They make simple things like unloading your 1911 into a 20 step process. They also constantly have you put your hand by the muzzle of your loaded gun. The lawyers run the show when it comes to policy and training techniques. Talk to people who have heavily trained at other places such as with Gabe Suarez and you will have a better reference point to make a judgement from. You have to pan a lot of sand and gravel to find any gold at Front Sight. Piazza is a lying sack of ____ and has lost the lawsuits to prove it. If you think it is great then knock yourself out.

Blake

[Ranch Dog]

I attend FS twice a year to tune my shooting up, I see plenty of value in it. They have delivered an unbelievably consistent product across the years.