The 10,000 round M70 on the line

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The good stuff from the firing line this week is from my intimately known M70 Winchester currently wearing the newly installed 3X Leopold scope on the elevation-capable mount was all pretty much gold. I had 50 loaded rounds on hand that didn't get fired due to scheduling problems so last Thursday I took it out in virtually perfect conditions to the hill-top and got them down-range.

I painted some of the targets (the ones I could drive to) but left the ones at middle distance alone because I knew I wouldn't be able to spot misses solo. Close in at 395 or 440 yards sure. Further than that no-way. And at 670 & 834 yard distance I have enough time to fire the rifle and then move over to my big spotting scope before the bullet arrives at the target and spot things for myself.

Things began at the 395 yard small diamond. (The closest target on this particular range) I set the sight to the right elevation number ~ and got a hit first round out of the cold, clean barrel. More shots gave more hits – it was easy. It was like I had eyes like I had 10 years ago! Shooting with the 3x advantage was liken to an optical time machine.

The bear at 440 yards was no challenge. I tossed one or two onto the black, then with subtle holding I could easily keep the rest in the 6-inch white. The 470 yard rectangle standing on end is 12x18 inches. I lost one off the right edge as the light breeze fell off to zip but nailed as many as I cared to shoot after that. I tried the 648 yard "big chicken" – sure enough I missed and saw nothing at all to tell me where to move for a hit – instead I moved to the freshly painted 670 yard "big round". This is a target that can eat your lunch and has from time to time. On this day it got all of my attention, ringing it clearly with each shot .. into the white for six shots of 12 fired and of the remaining 6 all landed within an inch or two of edge of the 8 inch center white spot.

What a rifle! Then on to the 834 yard distance, again a hit with the first shot and more easily following it. It got to be too easy so I moved over to the 2x2 diamond set a few yards to the left of the 4x4 square. Normally through the iron sights, I cannot see this target well enough to be at all sure of my sight-picture. With the Leopold I could see it quite well – and see my heartbeat vibrate the sights all over the place as I took aim from the cross-stick rest. Wow! Still, a miss to see exactly what the light breeze was doing, move over a minute or two, concentrate on trigger pull & sight picture (almost like shooting offhand) and start counting hits again.

I found that I could fire and, holding the rifle in recoil, see clearly enough to watch the target react to the hit. Exact spotting of the bullet track needed the full 20x of my spotting scope but the technique was fun all by itself.

I wound up regretting that I hadn't loaded more rounds – days like that are the special ones!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Blammer]

In deed they are! good shooting!

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

In further shooting of the small-bore 30'06 at our range I have encountered (more) real proof of additional bullet drift in the transonic velocity range.

I shoot quite a bit of the typical 21.0 grain load of 4759. It chronographs around 1750 or so and I figure it slows to subsonic around 550 - 600 yards ~ thereby transiting the high drag and being subject to more-than-expected drift in the given condition.

I have wound up "chasing the wind" from time to time ~ trying to figure the "middle" of the condition. At times I can do so, at other times I'm off one side or the other as conditions huff and puff in the typical unpredictable fashion we know.

To fix this - at least as well as a small bore 30 can be "fixed" I turned to pushing the speeds up to the place where I figure the bullets would still be traveling faster than the speed of sound at 800+ yards. Thus avoiding the transonic trap altogether.

The goal was 2000 ft/sec and I found this within reach with a HT RCBS 30-180-SP and 32.5 grains IMR 4895. ~ I even managed to maintain good accuracy and Standard Deviation as well.

Now, although things still drift around considerable I find that I can keep up!

Is anyone else lucky enough to have a long range facility for this type shooting out there?

Good evening,
Forrest

[Fishman]

That sounds fun! I only have a hundred yard range.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

On 16 July I went up the the hill-top range for some recrational shooting with the M70, loaded as previously noted in this thread with the RCBS and 32.5 grains 4895.

I went early to beat the heat - arriving soon enough to go up and paint targets for 30 minutes before starting to shoot. I got back to the line, set up and started shooting at the 350 yard distance to check my sight's zero for the rest of the distances. The first five shots dropped right into the 'white' of the target after I set in 5 minutes of left windage.

Then I began moving out, to the 395 Diamond, the 440 yard Bear (easy) and the 440 yard 'Small Round' (much tougher). The M70 did very well at these targets.

About then a fellow shooter showed up. His interest was somewhat specialized in that he was working loads and practicing for a big 'money' shoot later on in the season: He only wanted to shoot the 'Far Square' - with the additional need to back off the firing line another 41 yards such that the distance would match the place where the money shoot was going to be held. This change would make the target 875 yards distant. He apologized to me knowing that this distance was non-standard and that I would not have an elevation for it in my shooting box.

I didn't mind. Such details are easy to determine with just a few shots ~ I told him I would be happy to move back and shoot at the alternate distance with him.

We set up and sure enough hits were to be had with the trusty Winchester. However, at the longer ranges some semi-serious windage became necessary.

My friend had his "heavy" Sharps 45/70 he has used for years with excellent results at many long range "Buffalo Rifle" contests in our area. He was ready and his load was finely developed. He didn't fire a shot at the 'easy' 811 yard distance where I wanted to begin but waited until I had it dialed in and was ringing the steel predictably. Then we moved on to the target which he wanted to practice on.

By this time the wind had picked up considerably - even to the place where it was beginning to blow us around as we sat on the ground with our rifles rested on their cross-stick rests. Our spotting scopes were also starting to vibrate, blurring the image of our target.

It was my turn to fire first. I estimated the needed elevation over the previous distance, dialed in another 5 minutes of windage for 'more distance, more correction' and fired. It was a hit down low at 6 o'clock but I was happy to have estimated the condition closely enough to get a hit at all.

My friend fired and his 540 grain bullet drifted on out there - and missed high right. ~ We both adjusted our sights for center and carried on. I was able to nearly stay with him for over-all number of hits but his purpose-built 45 long gun was amazing it is ability to drop them not only on the steel, but many 'in-the-white' for 'centers'. By the time his 20 practice rounds were fired we were both quite happy with the results of our shooting. ~ Him for really precise results, me for keeping my rounds of "small-bore" 30 caliber almost entirely on the steel - and those that did miss weren't by much and all due to condition - none high or low - just drifting off a bit to the left or right.

After the shooting was complete I checked my sight and saw that it was set for 25 minutes left of mechanical zero for hits. At 875 yards that amounts to 14 feet or so. ~ It was a windy day - but fun.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[DLCTEX]

Good shooting!

[jonp]

Double post of one below

[Frank46]

Forrest, funny thing about your 4759 load. You use 21 grains in your '06. I use 20 grains in my Finn reworked model 27 in 7.62x54. I have seen a few other 4759 loads in almost the same charge weight. I'm beginning to think that there is a sort of sweet spot in the 20-21 grain area. I use the lyman 314299 at about 210 grains ready to load. And you have given me a start area when I get going with my Model 70 post '64 match rifle in '06. Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank;

Fk: Forrest, funny thing about your 4759 load. You use 21 grains in your '06. I use 20 grains in my Finn reworked model 27 in 7.62x54. I have seen a few other 4759 loads in almost the same charge weight.

Fo: The 21 to 22 grain level of 4759 is kind of a standard for cast bullet loads in 30'06 size cases. With a little detail fiddling for your rifle's exact preference things come together easily.

I don't use the 4759 load for long range shooting because it is a little on the slow side. I think I may have mentioned somewhere in this thread that I went to the faster load of 4895 because I could keep the bullets supersonic all the way out there and thus, reduce drift.

The 4759 load is really a little more accurate for shorter ranges. So, if your intended shooting with the match M70 is limited to say, 500 yards or less it would be the better choice.

Good morning,
Forrest

PS: I have had the fever for a Finn M27 for years. The only one I found had a hopeless bore.

[Frank46]

Forrest, our local range only goes out to 300 yds. I bought this rifle as a very decent price years ago and it's been a safe queen ever since. Too many projects and so little time. The M27 was a swap between a buddy and me quite a few years ago. I had a cherry
lee enfield No4 MKII and I wanted a nice moisin to start shooting cast bullets. He shot the enfield and said "wanna swap" done deal says I and the rest is history. Frank

[leeggen]

FasMus all I can say is WOW!
CD

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I ran across this picture today, taken last summer of the M70 on the Hill-top firing line.

The rifle now wears a new 4X Leupold, suitably shimmed to reach both the 100-yard zero and still handily make it to the 834 yard distance on internal adjustment.

. 155706

[Char-Gar]

I have a 1952 Winchester 70 in 30-06 that like yours is a very cast bullet capable rifle. I also have had very good luck with 21/4759 with several different bullets. It wears a K3 Weaver.

[Scharfschuetze]

Just had one of those special shooting days (like yours) over in Western Colorado with old police comrades a few days ago. The weather was perfect in between snow storms with mild temps, guns were shooting well and we were the only people in probably 20 square miles. One great day.

And yes, those old Winchester Model 70s are, in my mind, the classic American bolt action sporting and match rifles of the 50s and 60s.

Over the years, I've found virtually new original Winchester replacement barrels with various gunsmithing friends so I'm pretty sure these rifles below will go well beyond that 10,000 round mark even though the barrels on these are pristine. I go easy on those old scopes so it's almost all cast boolits in the scoped Model 70s.

[jonp]

Throwing the flag on this. Everyone knows you need a 338 Lapua, a 6.5 Creedmore or a 50cal to shoot anything over 500yrds. :|

[Larry Gibson]

Throwing the flag on this. Everyone knows you need a 338 Lapua, a 6.5 Creedmore or a 50cal to shoot anything over 500yrds. :|

Me too.....and it's got to be a Remington M700 'cause everyone know them old M70s aren't as accurate........[smilie=s:

Larry Gibson

Been shooting with Scharfschuetze for years........He's BSing you.....he shoots a heck of a lot better than he lets on......he's lulling you all into a false sense of security so you probably shoot with him...........

[Artful]

Targets at the end of the road against the hill are 1000

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Maricopa%20Shoots/P1040281.jpg~original

[Love Life]

Throwing the flag on this. Everyone knows you need a 338 Lapua, a 6.5 Creedmore or a 50cal to shoot anything over 500yrds. :|

plain vanilla .243 Winchester will do it easily!

[Artful]

Yep, even the 223 on non windy days.

[Love Life]

22-250 with a fast twist barrel shooting heavies...

[Scharfschuetze]

22-250 with a fast twist barrel shooting heavies...

All kid's stuff ;););)

If you want to really raise dust and hit targets at very, very long range with cast boolits, bigger is better! 30 cals with 200 + grain projectiles and 45/70s with 405 grains boolits and bigger are the bomb.

Virtually unlimited range in photo one and 800 yards to the targets on the hill behind me in the second photo.

[Love Life]

I really need to get a BPCR type target rifle chambered in 45/70.

[Scharfschuetze]

A little off topic from the original 30/06 theme, but these rifles work really well for black powder or smokeless shooting. The sights are just perfect for long range shooting to a mile and that big boolit really has a big signature when it hits what you're shooting at or at least it lets you know with lots of dust if your wind or trajectory call was off.

I once had the Browning 1885 heavy barrel BPCR 45/70, but to be honest, it was only barely competitive to these Trapdoor rifles at long range.

[TXGunNut]

I really need to get a BPCR type target rifle chambered in 45/70.

I've had one spec'd out on the Shiloh Sharps site or awhile, was just thinking the same thing.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen:

I can't dig up any pictures but I've done some long range single shot shooting.

The deal is that the increased caliber of the 45s is ballistically superior to the small-bore 30s because as the weight goes up in the bigger diameter bullet the surface area does not increase as rapidly as the smaller bullets do. So, a bullet in 30, with the same sectional density as one in 45 will not have as good a ballistics coefficient even if they have essentially the same form..

This is strongly evident in artillery, where the bigger the gun, the further it will shoot.

Knowing these things, at the end of my long range single shot shooting I built a 50 Sharps Straight on the "Spaghetti Sharps" action. (cases cost $2.35 each!)

I bought a new 50 caliber barrel blank rifled for 50 BMG with the 1:20 twist, installed it and got a 700 grain mold cut by Paul Jones custom shop to feed the monster.

It performed well and I took it up to the Montana 1000 yard Championship, where things came out very nicely.

~ By the way, this proven rifle + all its accessories is now for sale. Very reasonable.

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

This is a repeat shot of me last spring with the M70 on the Hill-Top range.


165378

Wyoming really is hard to beat!

[hydraulic]

Artful: Your range looks like the place where Dutch Henry Brown had his cabin in "Winchester
73". Shelley Winters make the classic comment,"You never know when a girl might need a bullet."

[Scharfschuetze]

Wyoming really is hard to beat!

I'm in Fremont County as I type and the plan is to launch boolits tomorrow. Driving in today the wind was pretty strong in the Lander Valley, so it'll make those wind calls interesting to say the least if the wind continues tomorrow. A 7.5 Swiss and a Trapdoor are in their cases ready to go.

[Mk42gunner]

I really miss the wide open spaces of the American west. It sure made it easy to shoot at long range.

Robert

[Frank46]

Looks like a long slide lyman 48 and a lyman xnb sights on the springfield. Had a smith corona with almost the same setup. That was in my salad days all green and mixed up. Don't even remember what I swapped it for. Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank;

I've had my M1903 in pretty much all sight configurations.

I have a Camp Perry tool for the old ladder issue sight - it was a lot of fun to crank that old hummer! Then came the tall staff M48 Lyman and the usual optical set up for the current 3X Leopold.

The M1903 sat in mothballs for awhile since even with the good M48 in place I couldn't see the issue blade well enough after a certain point to do any good. ~ Thus the 3X scope. The picture on my postings is the M1903 with a temporary 6X Burris - since replaced.

I bought that rifle on my 18th birthday - when my mother could no longer say "no" for $37.50.

Forrest