Will Trail Boss get me there?

[feets]

I just received 67 lbs of boolits from Penn. Forgive me for not casting my own, but I simply don't have the time to get into another hobby. However, I do enjoy heavy lead.

So, back to the issue...

I've got a 15" Encore in 460 S&W. It was probably the wrong caliber for what I wanted but it's what I've got. This thing was an unholy beast with high powered jacketed stuff.
Now, I'm trying to find a way to lob 300 gr lead around 1300 fps so I can slam a ram or two with reasonable accuracy at 200 meters.
Looking over my notes, I tried Cast Performance 335 WLFN over 14.5 gr of Trail Boss. This required careful loading to prevent compressed charges. This load is the absolute maximum for this bullet and this chamber. It gave me 1040 fps.
Stuffing 250 RNFP over 12.5 gr of Trail Boss rewarded me with 1200 fps.

What are the chances that a full case of uncompressed Trail Boss will put the 300s where I want to be? If it won't do it, what powder should I be looking at?

I tried a starting load of 20 gr Power Pistol under the 335s and that gave me 1580 fps which is a little heavier recoil than I wanted.

I really want to run the 300 silhouette bullets. I think the shape and caliber/length ratio will make it easy to get up to speed and keep that speed during flight. Again, after 200 meters it can drop like a rock for all I care.

I thought about Casull type loads with fillers but that idea really bothers me. It seems like a long way for the burn to go before it has to start making pressure.

For those who have never messed with the 460, here's a pic of a 45 Colt, 454 Casull, and the 460.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SW460XVR/2Mvc-001f.jpg

The case capacity is larger than a 308.

[geargnasher]

Trailboss is extremely "fast" powder, not the best way to push heavy cast boolits fast.

Look for a much slower powder like 2400 or even some of the fast, reduced-load rifle powders like IMR 4227 that will build up a good head of steam more slowly, yet still burn efficiently at lower pressures.

I don't know for sure, but Unique might get you where you want to be, and it won't require a filler like 2400 likely will to perform at it's best in that huge case.

Gear

[BABore]

I'd be looking at SR 4759. It does well in the 45-70 at about half a case full. A bit of dacron will improve accuracy a little over non filler loads, but the difference is slight.

[Jon K]

The 300gr/1060-1100 fps will do what you want...but Trail Boss seems to be most aqccurate @80% capacity.
Stands, weather, and condition of the Rams will also play a large part in this.

Jon

[303Guy]

Have a look a Lil'Gun. It'll produce the highest velocity with the lowest pressure in the 460 S&W. It might also produce the velocity you desire. In your case you might start at 'starting loads' and work down. Hodgdon list a load developing 13,700 CUP with Lil'Gun in the 32 H&R Magnum. The starting load for the 460 S&W shows 46,300psi. That'll hurt! (It's not that I am biased or anything but I love Lil'Gun because of what it can do for the 22 Hornet:roll:). You would of course be looking for unburned powder which I would think is an indication of the lower limit. The lower peak pressure means less felt recoil which in turn means the higher the velocity you would find comfortable.

[bigboredad]

I would look at Ramshots enforcer. In my .45 colt it has given me scary accuracy and the recoil feels like stepping on a plumb

[fecmech]

Back "in the day" I shot silhouette with a .44 mag SBH with the Lyman 429421 253 gr Keith at1300 FPS mv which got it to the rams at about 940 fps IIRC. I rarely lost a ram that was hit with that load and back in the 70's how rams were set was iffy at best, some set pretty hard. I would think either bullet you mention at the speeds you mention would work, I would choose the most accurate. IMO there is nothing special about trailboss as far as recoil, ( it's basically a fluffy Clays or Red Dot), velocity and bullet weight are the key. Good luck which ever way you go.

[NHlever]

I think the new Lyman manual has loads like you are looking for in the 460, and .454, and I do think that Unique is one of the powders they use.

[feets]

The 300gr/1060-1100 fps will do what you want...but Trail Boss seems to be most aqccurate @80% capacity.
Stands, weather, and condition of the Rams will also play a large part in this.

Jon

Do you think that low of a velocity will do the trick?
By my best guesstimates, at 200 meters the slug would be loafing along at 850 fps and would have dropped 60 inches. A 10 mph wind would blow it over a foot or more.

I was looking at a little higher velocity to keep it between 950 and 1000 fps for a little more thump and keep the drop less than 4 feet.

The only handgun cartridge I've shot at rams was a friend's 44 mag. He had 240 gr bullets leaving at 1250 fps. I squeezed the shot and thought I'd missed. I was starting to thumb the hammer for another go when the bullet hit and the ram went down. It certainly took it's time getting there and didn't seem to hit with much authority. A little more oomph from a heavier slug would set my mind at ease.

Of course, I could always use the factory Hornady stuff. Those 200 grain FTX leave the muzzle at 2600+ fps. They would be running around 2400 fps at the chickens and slow to 1600 fps or so at the rams.
I don't think the range officer would be amused. :mrgreen:

Honestly, I've only shot at sillywets once but it's something I'd like to explore.
My friend handed me his 44 SBH and I was tickled to hit 3 out of 4 rams right out of the chute.
My gun of choice that day was my 15" 308 Encore. I used my 150 Interbonds (bought 1,000 dirt cheap) over a mild load and it worked great. The problem there is that I don't want to hurt any of the targets by slamming them with a 308.
My other choice is a 22-250 barrel and that would certainly leave a mark due to the way too high velocity. Forget downloading that thing. I'm not ready to go half size.

You guys seem to be the pros with fat slabs of lead so I'm here to learn what I can.

[Jon K]

Boolit weight retains enery. The lighter boolits need speed for energy, but the slower heavy boolits retain energy.

I know a shooter using TB with 300gr@1100 fps for his Ram load, and shoots the same 300gr for chicken-turkey @1040fps. This is in a Levergun but boolit weight & speed are right in the same range you're looking at. I am using a NOE 355 gr @1060 fps with TB, and haven't lost a Ram. The range I shoot at the Rams are tough, cause the stands flex, Rams are bowed, and the wind comes up and blows good.

Don't under-estimate slow moving heavy boolits.

Jon

[41 mag fan]

Off the subject, but whats that 460 like in an Encore pistol?
I got the encore, but in 41 mag. I've got the 45/454, 480 and 500 in pistols, but have been toying with buying a barrel in 460 for the Encore.

[hunter2]

I shoot a 454 with a 300 Hornady backwards on a compressed charge of trailboss. It shoots cleaner with better acc than anything else I have tried. The 357 shoots a 180 with a lightly compressed charge of tb with the same effects. Tried it with a 50-70-750 and could not get enough in there. I try to keep everything at 1050 fps. Called to see why trail boss should not be compressed and was not given an answer - just runaround...

[feets]

Trail Boss is an extremely fast powder. When you compress it, the little circles break and it begins to pack solid. When that happens, it's like packing your case full of Green Dot. There is no longer air space to slow the burn. It lights RIGHT NOW and blows your gun to pieces.

As for a full house 460 load in an iron sighted Encore pistol, it's brutal. Hold a block of wood in your hand and let a semi-pro ball player take a home run swing at it. The first round made my entire hand sting. The second round made the hand hurt. The third round was simply a bad idea. After that one, I couldn't hold the gun steady enough to hit a water bottle at 30 feet. I was at an all day shooting event and my ability to operate a handgun accurately that day was gone. My trigger control on the rifles was impacted too. The next day I was able to shoot again but did not take the 460 out of the truck.
I had the barrel for over a year and put less than 20 rounds through it. I found three people who would fire it after watching me do it. None of them would take a second shot. That was with the factory Hornady 200 gr loads. Anything heavier just gets uglier.
Here's a Youtube video (with an F bomb in it) http://www.youtube.com/v/AH1rMcdF2BQ
Here's a video of a bunch of people passing one around: http://www.youtube.com/v/Rb7JxlVIWHs

I sent my barrel to Bellm to have a muzzle brake cut into the end of it. That was the barrel's saving grace. It is now controllable but still not something you want to shoot often. The 200 gr loads are manageable. 335 gr WLFN over 39 gr of H110 will give you 2080 fps and a stinging hand. You could easily hunt with it but it's still not a recreational shooter. It's the last thing you shoot for the day.
After playing with it for a while I think I damaged the cartilage in my wrist. I put away the heavy loads for almost a year now and the problems with my shooting hand have diminished.
During that time, I continued shooting full house 308s out of the Encore pistol and had no problems.
If you get a big fat bull barrel with a break and put a scope on it you will have a much nicer shooting gun that is capable of taking any game on the planet with the proper load.

The 460 lobs 200 gr bullets at 2700 fps. My 26" 300 win mag tosses 208 gr A-max bullets at 2800 fps. So, imagine a 4-1/2 pound 300 Winchester Magnum sitting in your right hand.
The 335s at 2000 fps is equivalent to a 45/70 rifle load. It's faster than what you get in a 45/70 pistol. If you load the 45/70 to the same velocity out of a pistol it will show you that it's more of a man than you are.

Maybe I'm just a girlie man but I'm finished with full house 460 loads in a light weight gun. it sounds awesome. It looks awesome. It is awesome. It's also more of a man than I am.

If I can make the 460 do what I want it to do with the silhouette (and enjoy it) then I will invest in a 454 barrel and sell the 460 stuff. The 454 can easily be loaded to make the velocity I like.

This is an interesting bit I found comparing penetration of various handguns: http://www.youtube.com/v/F8CuOybgmxQ

[41 mag fan]

The 460 you talking about any worse than putting 42gr of H110 behind a 440gr boolit in my 500 Smith?

[quilbilly]

My rule of thumb for TB is that its maximum velocity at 95% of full case (therefore no compression) is 60% of the maximum with a jacketed bullet of the same size with any powder. If that gets you where you want to go, it is pretty good stuff.

[feets]

The 460 you talking about any worse than putting 42gr of H110 behind a 440gr boolit in my 500 Smith?


If you're using an XVR or other revolver then it is different. The revolver's cylinder gap dissipates lots of energy from the charge. That's why the Hornady loads pick up 500 fps in an Encore. The revolver's muzzle brake helps too. I know how big of a difference it made in my Encore.

If you're using an Encore then I hope it's not an unbraked T/C barrel. They are just as punishing.

Adding barrel weight would calm both of them down substantially.

[41 mag fan]

If you're using an XVR or other revolver then it is different. The revolver's cylinder gap dissipates lots of energy from the charge. That's why the Hornady loads pick up 500 fps in an Encore. The revolver's muzzle brake helps too. I know how big of a difference it made in my Encore.

If you're using an Encore then I hope it's not an unbraked T/C barrel. They are just as punishing.

Adding barrel weight would calm both of them down substantially.

I wondered that after I posted, being single shot vs revolver. Has my interest piqued regardless.

[MT Gianni]

If Trail Boss is the only powder you are able to get you can probably make it go bang. Load to 60% case capacity in straightwall cases.

[feets]

I did find something interesting. Amazingly enough, it was right under my nose the whole time. I printed the data out a couple years ago and put it in my loading book. Since I never used Accurate powder, I never looked at it. [smilie=b:

Accurate lists a reduced load with 25.5 of 5744 running a 335 at 1200 fps. A charge of 26.0 under a 300 XTP runs 1200 fps also.
The velocity will increase with the lack of cylinder gap and 300 gr lead but at least I have something to work with.

I picked up a pound of 5744 on Tuesday while buying my all original Inland USGI M1 carbine for $399. That thing has passed every inspection the collectors can give it and appears to be the real deal. It's a half price score even if it has been rebuilt.
:happy dance: