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cdet69
11-12-2011, 05:22 PM
How well does the Lee factory crimp die work for cast bullets?

runfiverun
11-12-2011, 05:38 PM
if you don't squish the boolit a crimp can help in some situations.
a roll crimp to keep things in place in a tube mag,or from walking forward under recoil is a necessary evil.
the squishy neck lee thing don't really roll the case mouth over, and their fcd usually sizes the boolit down too small to be effective.

BigRix
11-12-2011, 06:41 PM
Are you talking about pistol or rifle versions? They operate differently. The pistol version can swage a cast boolit down. I don't believe the rifle version will.

.357MAN
11-12-2011, 06:45 PM
I crimped J bullets with the pistol LEE FCD before I started casting for my pistol caliber, and It worked beautifully for those J bullets.
On cast boolits it's another story. Even the slightest squeeze from the carbide seizer and your cast boolits are ruined. Thankfully people on CB new about it, so I found out about the problem before I bought my casting gear. I bought a separate crimp die, but didn't like it so I started searching on CB for a solution to the FCD. Someone said to take a LEE expander die body and swap the expander and top plug with the FCD's crimp ring and adjusting knob. I did, but the threading in the expander die body isn't as deep as the FCD die body, so I had to stick a spacer in-between the crimp ring and the adjusting knob to reach the case. It's a hassle, but if you like the crimp angle the FCD has on your J bullets, and you want to crimp cast boolits, it's the only way to go.

Ps. If the FCD sizing ring is small enough you can use it as your main sizing die for cases that would be used for cast ( so there is less working the brass ), it's just another trick I picked up from CB.

.357MAN

.357MAN
11-12-2011, 06:49 PM
Yeah! rifle FCD is great. Similar to a light roll crimp without extra brass fatigue, if set up right

odoh
11-12-2011, 09:26 PM
I roll crimp my heavy/big bore revolver rnd but sometimes the rolled crimp area is too large to chamber, its then I use the FCD to shrink just that small area down; not the whole thing.

mpmarty
11-12-2011, 09:55 PM
bottle neck cases I load as well as the 45/70 I use the LEE factory crimp die. this is a collet type die and works well. On the pistol FCD I use a chisel and break out the lower carbide ring and use it like a regular crimp die. The lower ring just ruins boolits.

sqlbullet
11-12-2011, 10:01 PM
Pistol cases I don't care for them. They swage the bullet down too often.

But in bottle neck rifle cartridges I am a big fan. I have them for all my 30's and think they are a big improvement.

bigboredad
11-12-2011, 11:45 PM
I have used them in my .45 acp and .40 and have great success neither on swages the bullets to small. sometimes you just need to try it for yourself and see if it works for you. A lot of the people that say they don;t like them have never used one and there are a lot who have had bad experiences with them so for less than 20 bucks give a try

Edward429451
11-13-2011, 01:30 AM
I use the FCD only in 44 and 223 so far. I liked the rifle FCD die as is but did not like the sizing ring in the 44 die so popped it out with a punch.

MtGun44
11-13-2011, 02:10 AM
Rifle type collet design FCD is great. Pistol type with carbide sizing ring can be a problem for
some folks, in some cartridges with some diameter boolits. IMO, it serves absolutely no
purpose that is not addressed by an ordinary 4 die set properly made and properly adjusted.
I call it " an answer looking for a question".

Others here will and have disagreed with me on this, and have had good results with this.
So far I have not gotten any sort of convincing answer as to what a pistol FCD will do different
or better than a normal die set with a separate taper crimp die without the carbide ring.

IMO, if the carbide ring touches anything, itshows that the normal full length sizer die is made
wrong. If the carbide ring doesn't do anything, then it is just an expensive taper crimp die with
an opportunity to mess up cast boolit ammo. Sorry, I'll pass. I keep waiting for somebody to
explain what it is that I have missed on the pistol FCD, so far they have all struck out, although
some folks like and use them.

Ranchdog has had Lee build pistol length collet type "factory crimp dies" for some of the more
common pistol cartridges. Sounds like a good idea to me, but haven't bought one from him.

Bill

WHITETAIL
11-13-2011, 09:00 AM
I have only used the rifle FCD
and they pass my test.
Sofar I have them in 30-30 and 45-70.
And I would not hesitate to buy one for
my 35 Rem.:2gunsfiring_v1:

zomby woof
11-13-2011, 09:45 AM
I use them to remove flare on the case mouth, lightly.

milprileb
11-13-2011, 10:54 AM
Ranchdog has had Lee build pistol length collet type "factory crimp dies" for some of the more
common pistol cartridges. Sounds like a good idea to me, but haven't bought one from him.

Bill[/QUOTE]


[B]SO.oooooooooo reading this, I emailed Ranchdog pronto and here is what he says:

I quote:
[/B


I do not have an collect FCD for the 9mm. In semi-autos, rifles or pistols, that cartridge needs to headspace on the chamber step with the case mount so a FCD crimp would cause issue.
Michael "Ranch Dog" Reamy
Ranch Dog Outdoors]

:killingpc:killingpc:killingpc:killingpc:killingpc :killingpc:killingpc

milprileb
11-13-2011, 11:00 AM
Don't know what I don't know but... if the man does not make it, it
ain't for sale.

We can all be misinformed at times so no one take offense here.

Rocky Raab
11-13-2011, 11:49 AM
For the same reason, you wouldn't want a collet FCD (or a roll crimper) for ANY semi-auto pistol cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth.

On the OT, I agree completely with the consensus here: rifle FCD, yes! Handgun FCD, no.

mdi
11-13-2011, 11:50 AM
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=53_54 Ranch Dog doesn't offer Collet Crimp Dies for semi-auto rounds, but for other straight walled calibers...

mroliver77
11-13-2011, 12:06 PM
Don't know what I don't know but... if the man does not make it, it
ain't for sale.

We can all be misinformed at times so no one take offense here.
What is your point?
J

1Shirt
11-21-2011, 01:12 PM
I have LFC's for all rifle ctgs that I shoot cast in, and am a firm believer that they improve accuracy. Would not use for revolver as I believe that roll crimp works best. Exception as noted for autos requiring taper crimps.
1Shirt!

MtGun44
11-21-2011, 04:37 PM
I never said he made them for ALL CALIBERS. I think he has them for a number of the
revolver cartridges like .357 and .44 mags. Sorry if you got disappointed, but you actually
just need an ordinary taper crimp die for the 9mm.

If you are one of the "pistol=semiauto" guys, the sorry about that. Personally, a pistol is
a handgun of any type, even though I know some folks insist otherwise. I did say "for
some of the more common pistol cartridges" - no intent to defraud. ;-)

Bill

jfvacc
11-21-2011, 07:05 PM
I do not have an collect FCD for the 9mm. In semi-autos, rifles or pistols, that cartridge needs to headspace on the chamber step with the case mount so a FCD crimp would cause issue.
Michael "Ranch Dog" Reamy
Ranch Dog Outdoors]

No offense to Mr. Reamy, but Lee makes a FCD for the 9mm. Granted, it is not a collet die. I own one and have used it to load hundreds of rounds of 9mm with 124 gr FMJ bullets. It applies a taper crimp to the round and post sizes. It has not caused any "issues". I do not think Lee Precision would sell them for long if they did.

I do not cast for 9mm, so I can't comment on the die's usefulness for cast bullets, but I have a FCD I use for .45 Auto and .38 Special/.357, and it works well. I get no leading from any alleged swaging the FCD does to the bullets. Shooting .38s out of a Ruger LCR, GP 100, and Colt Commando. Shooting .45s out of a Colt Government Model.

MikeS
11-22-2011, 06:58 PM
jfvacc: Ranch Dog (Mr Reamy) has Lee custom make the rifle style collet FCD in 357Mag, 44Mag, and 45 Colt. This is a totally different die than the CFCD (Carbide Factory Crimp Die). The only thing that similar between them is their name, and that they're both crimp dies. For exactly the same reasons Ranch Dog states, you would never roll crimp any round for an auto pistol.

MtGun44: I'm going to take issue with one of your statements. You said "If the carbide ring doesn't do anything, then it is just an expensive taper crimp die with an opportunity to mess up cast boolit ammo." and while I agree that there's a chance it can mess up cast ammo, how do you call it expensive? It's way cheaper than almost any other die makers taper crimp dies, and I like having the adjustability without having to mess with the lock ring on the die body.

What I don't understand is all the people that have one, and break out the carbide ring. When I first learned about the CFDC being able to mess up ammo, I looked around for an alternative, and I don't recall who originally came up with this idea, but I liked it, and is what I do. That is, I take the body from a Lee expander die (which I don't use as I have a Lyman M die), and I put the crimping ring from the CFDC into it, along with the adjustment knob from it as well. Then I take the CFDC body and attach it to their Bulge Buster Kit. None of my 45's bulge the cases, but I've gotten some range brass that's been pretty bulged (on one side, from having the cartridge not fully supported by the case, not from dangerously over pressure loads), and so now when I process any used brass that's not from my guns, I routinely run them thru the Lee Bulge Buster setup (doing it while the brass is still empty, so it can't hurt any loaded boolits). I'm sure there are other people out there that have Lee expander dies that they don't use, and this is a perfect use for them!

And another thing folks should understand, just using Lee's CFDC die (as shipped from the factory, not with my mod) doesn't automatically mean your ammo is ruined. To use 45ACP as an example, if you normally size your cast boolits to .451 and you're using brass that's fairly thin walled (I've noticed that R-P brass seems to be much thinner walled that Starline or Winchester) there's very little chance of sizing down the boolit. On the other hand, if you size to .452 or .453 and are using thick walled brass, then there's a good chance the die will size down your boolit!

So, basically what I'm saying is to use your head, make your own decisions, and don't get a knee-jerk reaction about using either the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, or any other piece of reloading or shooting equipment.

youngda9
11-23-2011, 12:20 PM
I've used the Lee FCD for CB's without a problem. 44mag 357mag 40S&W and 9mm. You just have to adjust it right so you're getting a crimp into the crimp groove without sizing down the bullets. I've shot many of thousands of rounds this way with no leading. It's all in the setup, as with all things re-loading.

1bluehorse
11-23-2011, 02:28 PM
I've read a lot of these threads about the LCFCD swaging down cast bullets. I've never had this issue with my 44's and 45 colts..but they are not oversize bullets. If you try the LCFCD and feel your bullet "bumping" into and out of the die when you go to crimp with it, then you're most likely "swaging" your bullet. If the round goes in "clean", (you don't feel anything) and the die is properly adjusted, it's not swaging the bullet. I don't use it with the wifes 357's, but they're sized .360 and definitly "bump" going into and out of the die. Thats been my experience, but I'm also not the tightest knot in the rope.

gefiltephish
11-23-2011, 02:50 PM
I've used the Lee FCD for CB's without a problem. 44mag 357mag 40S&W and 9mm. You just have to adjust it right so you're getting a crimp into the crimp groove without sizing down the bullets. I've shot many of thousands of rounds this way with no leading. It's all in the setup, as with all things re-loading.

Me thinks you're not understanding. Nobody said there is a problem with the crimp. The problem is with the carbide ring at the bottom of the die. It has nothing to do with the crimp. There is no adjustment for this except sanding the id of the carbide ring to a larger diameter to the point where it is (hopefully) entirely ineffective, or as I and others wound up doing, punching it out altogether. This solves the problem completely and the die still works great as a crimp die.

Like others, I also use the collet FCD for rifle but abhor the carbide FCD. The carbide ring is nothing more than a (bad) band-aid to cover up some other problem in the process which is far better solved by addressing that issue directly.

That said, if the thing works for you, happy shooting!

trixter
11-23-2011, 06:36 PM
I have and use Factory Crimp Dies for both my 45ACP (which taper crimps only) and for my .223 (which roll crimps). I use cast boolits in my 45ACP and the FCD, crimps and post sizes the whole thing. The loaded cartridges fall in and out of the barrel with no friction. I have it set to .470 at the top of the neck. Works great.

As for the .223, it depends on what bullet I am using. Some have canalure (sp) and some do not, so I adjust accordingly.

I love it. 'Wouldn't leave the reloading room without it'.

357shooter
11-23-2011, 07:11 PM
I have and use Factory Crimp Dies for both my 45ACP (which taper crimps only) and for my .223 (which roll crimps). I use cast boolits in my 45ACP and the FCD, crimps and post sizes the whole thing. The loaded cartridges fall in and out of the barrel with no friction. I have it set to .470 at the top of the neck. Works great.

As for the .223, it depends on what bullet I am using. Some have canalure (sp) and some do not, so I adjust accordingly.

I love it. 'Wouldn't leave the reloading room without it'.

The pistol FCD crimps just fine, and the sizer works too, especially if you cast & load oversize bullets. Therein lies the problem. In theory it shouldn't ever size anything, which is why some guys consider it a solution looking for a problem.

My normal bullets are larger than standard size, in diameter, and the FCD sizing ring swages them down, to a smaller standard size. In my guns the larger shoot better than smaller, so I don't want that to happen, which is why one fix is to remove the sizing ring.

If your bullet diameter is standard, you will not have the problem. It has nothing to do with the crimp at all.

The rifle FCD is a whole 'nother tool and does not share the same characteristics as the pistol FCD.

MtGun44
11-23-2011, 10:36 PM
I am not being a smarty, I do not know the answer to this, but I have a guess.

Is the Lee regular plain old taper crimp die less expensive than the Lee FCD crimp die
in the same cartridge?

I would be quite surprised if it is not so, since without the work/$ of adding the carbide ring,
it would seem that a plain TC would have to be cheaper. I stand by my statement and submit
that comparing a Lee FCD to a Lee TC is fair, but it is not a fair comparison to compare against
other mfr's TC dies. All of Lee dies are much cheaper than other brands, although someone is
sure to find some exception to that statement, if there is one.

I like and use lots of Lee dies. I stand by my statements as fair and factual. I am
not trying to convince anyone of anything - PLEASE do what you want, and what you find
works best for you. However, for the newbie, I think my statements are factual and useful
to become educated on the pluses and minuses of Lee FCD for use with cast boolits.

Bill

35remington
11-24-2011, 03:13 AM
Cannot speak for all calibers of the FCD. Only have one in 45 ACP.

Simple math:

Case wall thickness of 45 ACP brass is 0.010" to 0.011" near the mouth. Thinnest cases were old R - P brass at 0.009." These did not hold adequately even before using the FCD, but I digress.

Cast bullets measure .452", typically. Jacketed are .451", sometime a hair skinnier, depending upon manufacturer.

0.452" + 0.020" (twice 0.010") equals 0.472." My FCD produces 0.471" diameters when measuring cases processed through the carbide ring only; no taper crimp applied.

0.452" + 0.022" (twice 0.011) equals .474." I believe SAAMI max cartridge dimension is .473" at the mouth of a loaded round for the 45 ACP, but this may be presuming the use of a .451" jacketed bullet.

Best case situation results in a .472" case/bullet combo going through a carbide ring that produces a .471" finished diameter.

Only testing can show whether this noticeably affects bullet pull (it certainly doesn't help) but squeezing of the bullet occurs to some degree.

If it's squeezed a half thou per side, and the squeeze results in relatively little spring back to the lead, the bullet is still of .451" diameter, and most barrels are specc'd to be of this size.

Worst case is the cartridge gets squeezed a thou and a half per side. Now we're undersized to a more significant degree as to bullet diameter.

If a fella does some measuring with what he has on hand, the merits or drawbacks of the carbide FCD will become more apparent.

Paying attention to the effort needed for the bullet/case to clear the sizing ring does the same thing. No appreciable effort, no appreciable harm.

Cannot say whether my die's diameter of the crimp ring is typical. If it varies, it would explain the variance in results posted here. I myself would vote for a crimp ring of .473" diameter as that meets SAAMI max cartridge dimensions while retaining the worth? of the post sizing step. This would minimize bullet damage and bullet retention issues.

Sometimes the LFCD is used as a substitute for a gauge, and that's where the use of the LFCD to "guarantee" feeding is being misapplied. If your rounds don't fit in the chamber some other part of the loading process is incorrect and the best solution is to find and fix it rather than applying a post screw up correction.

But for those who insist on using it as such, a larger .472" or .473" diameter to the crimp ring would keep the "devil may care" crowd happy while minimizing any damage that arose from the LFCD's use.

old wanderer
11-25-2011, 03:50 AM
Interesting the different opinions.

Just last week, had had 100 45 ACP rounds I had loaded 6 months ago. Tried a few, the ran into a failure to go into lock in my Kimber....I could see a noticeable bulge where the bullet was seated in the brass.

Took the FCD and ran the batch through the die..went to the range, the ammo runs flawlessly in my Kimber.

I saw no difference in the accuracy, except these loads were a bit hotter than I expected.

I do have some 200 Gr cast boolits, and will run 50 through the FCD and 50 not. Go do some shooting and see if theory matches practice.

Bullwolf
11-25-2011, 04:56 AM
I ran an experiment using my Lee Carbide FCD in 45ACP a while ago here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=116268

It was a few months back, but it's worth reiterating it again.

I have a few Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die sets for semi auto pistol calibers. I don't use them, as I typically use other dies and they are meant to fix a problem that I don't have. I figured the dies can always be used as a bulge buster kit, or for reloading factory ammo some day.

I typically load 45ACP using 2 sets of RCBS dies, and I seat and taper crimp in separate steps. It's just what I am used to doing, so using the Lee Carbide FCD was something new for me in 45ACP. I have no problem whatsoever using Lee dies, and I do use them quite a bit for other calibers. I have not found a really good use for the Lee Carbide FCD while using cast boolits yet.

For this test I used a Lee TL 452-230-2R boolit that casts at .454 from my mold using 2 parts wheel weight lead, to 1 part Linotype. That's a bit harder than is typically needed for 45ACP.

I sized the boolit down to .452 using a Lee push through sizer die.

I loaded the 45ACP round using my RCBS die set, and then I ran the finished product though my Lee Factory Crimp Die that was backed off almost all the way so it wouldn't be applying a crimp to the finished round.

The carbide ring in the Lee Factory Crimp Die re-sized the round, and it swaged down my .452 boolit. I pulled the loaded boolit after wards with a kinetic bullet puller and measured it. The pulled boolit measured .451 (using my micrometer) after the pass through the Lee FCD.

It was even postulated that a softer less springy boolit than the one I cast with my Linotype alloy could have been swaged down even smaller.

They say a picture is worth 1000 words.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3879

Boolits sized to .451 diameter shoot poorly (inaccurately) for me in my 1911's , and will often lead. A .452 or larger boolit is where my happy spot is.

I can say with 100% certainty that my Lee Cabide FCD will mess up my .452 or larger cast lead 45ACP boolits, and will also swage them down to .451

Your dies, brass thickness, and experience may vary. Perhaps my Lee FCD has a different carbide sizer ring than others (it's possible) still a few others who have measured their dies, came up with the same internal size as mine.

If I were to ever use a Lee Factory Crimp Die again while loading my cast boolits, I would be sure to watch the size of the loaded boolit after wards very closely.

Feel free to run the same experiment for yourself. Maybe the Lee Factory Crimp die will work for you, or perhaps it will be problematic if you also tend to shoot oversize cast boolits like I do.


- Bullwolf