half lead half WW: no cigar

[milprileb]

Well, I got the bore size sorted out and cast 9mm bullets, size to .358 and use White Label lubes. My barrel does not lead any more.

Then I began experimenting with different alloys. I had been using 2# Lead to 8# WW and all was just fine.

Should have left it alone but got curious and casted a batch of bullets in 50% Lead and 50% WW metal, sized .358 and used WL lube.

Got leading. YMMV but for me, I am going back to 2: 8 alloy

[geargnasher]

Are you going to tell us the rest of the story (age of 50/50 when fired, load, pulled boolit diameter, etc.) or just condemn the alloy completely?

Gear

[mpmarty]

Having many pounds of dental lead foil I too use a 50/50 mix with ww for pistol but I don't cast for 9mm only 10mm and 45acp. It works fine for me.

[crabo]

I've had good enough success with it in my 45/70 guide gun, air cooled and a plain based boolit at 1500 fps, that I am in the process of retesting a lot of my loads. I have more pure lead than WWs, so the 50/50 mix makes sense for me..

[btroj]

One run isn't enough. Air cooled or water dropped? How old we're the bullets? Which lube, White Label makes many.
So many things other than alloy could cause leading.
In my 45 ACP I can get leading or leading based solely upon the lube used. All bullets from the same batch, one lube leads, another doesn't.

Got to give it a real try and see what the problem was.

[x101airborne]

Yeah..... Air cooled 50/50 is even what I use in my rifles up to 1600 fps. I would look at other variables than just the alloy.

[44man]

I can't get accuracy from my 45-70 revolver with 50-50 unless I water drop or oven harden. It also needs a GC.
Hardening the alloy does not harm expansion on deer. It just engages the rifling better.
I get no leading that way. It is a very good alloy but I still need to treat it right. Air cooled will work in some guns, fail in others.

[milprileb]

Not sure what else to say: 50 50 , water quenched, BAC and 2500 lube used (White Label), sized 358 and lubed on Lyman 450. Bullets two months old before sizing and lubed.

Lee 120TC style, seated same as in other loads done with 2#lead to 8# WW alloy and water quenched, same lube and sizing drill.

Gear: not condeming, just posting my results.

Powder: WW231 and 4.0 grains pushing Lee 120 TC cast bullets. This load with 2:8 alloy does not lead.

I went with 50 50 under the impression my bullets might not need to be hard but its not working out that way for me.

[odfairfaxsub]

try not to treat him like a newb because he's prob a little smarter than most here and respect him because he's one of the reasons why we can cast bullets here in america. thankyou milpreb for your service you provided to the armed forces.

its so funny you have been on the chase of 9mm ism's.

you tried ww air cooled ww water cooled ww mixed with lino ww and pure lead mix. lee lube, rooster lube, white label types.

blue dot powder, bullseye, winchester 231, have you tried unique ? i have been following for 2 years and forgot if you did or didnt

ill tell you what i did and you can tell me you already tried it.


$$$$$5.3 grains of unique, wolf/tula primmers. 124 gr tumble lube design (the single lube band failed me as a sure no leading bullet) liquid lee alox. I took my barrel off and cleaned it as well as i could and ran a birtchwood casey lead remover cloth 500 passes until the barrel was very very shinney and hot. this seemed like it made the steel inside alot smoother and "reduced a surface tension that loved to grab ahold of lead"

no moly just that !!!

[Pat I.]

Use what works for ya and don't worry about trying to explain or justify it.

[RobS]

milprileb

If you haven't measured the very edge of the base on a pulled boolit and compare it with a pulled one cast with the harder alloyed then that's one possiblity. A 9mm case is a tough little cartridge, especially near the head of the brass; case swage can happen pretty easily. It could also simply be that the load combo and your gun just don't work. You've found one way to make it happen so you aren't out in the dark. From the sounds of things I wonder if your boolit base is swaging down in the case.

[Dale53]

One thing I don't see mentioned here - the 2#/8# alloy will be somewhat larger in diameter than the 50/50 mix. It may be as much the problem (the size) as the alloy is. Using a micrometer, measure bullets sized the same, but two weeks after "normalizing" (sitting on the shelf). You may find a bit difference in diameter. That CAN cause leading - if the bullet is slightly undersize...

They tell everyone to only make one change at a time. However, when you soften an alloy - TWO things happen. The bullet gets softer but also gets SMALLER. It would be interesting to see if a sizer a thousandth or so larger with the softer bullet leads...

Just a thought...

Dale53

[sqlbullet]

milprileb

If you haven't measured the very edge of the base on a pulled boolit and compare it with a pulled one cast with the harder alloyed then that's one possiblity. A 9mm case is a tough little cartridge, especially near the head of the brass; case swage can happen pretty easily. It could also simply be that the load combo and your gun just don't work. You've found one way to make it happen so you aren't out in the dark. From the sounds of things I wonder if your boolit base is swaging down in the case.


One thing I don't see mentioned here - the 2#/8# alloy will be somewhat larger in diameter than the 50/50 mix. It may me as much the problem (the size) as the alloy is. Using a micrometer, measure bullets sized the same, but two weeks after "normalizing" (sitting on the shelf). You may find a bit difference in diameter. That CAN cause leading - if the bullet is slightly undersize...

They tell everyone to only make one change at a time. However, when you soften an alloy - TWO things happen. The bullet gets softer but also gets SMALLER. It would be interesting to see if a sizer a thousandth or so larger with the softer bullet leads...

Just a thought...

Dale53


Both of these come down to something Gear alluded to....you need to measure a bullet that you have pulled from a loaded case. Most likely somewhere along the line you have accidentally changed the size of the bullet between when it was cast and sized and it actually is fired.

This happens especially in short stiff cases like the 9mm and 40 S&W and with folks using a Lee Factory Crimp die on straight or taper wall cases.

As has been said, there could be many other reasons as well, but validating the size of a loaded boolit is always the best starting place.

[Hardcast416taylor]

All I can say to your personal 50/50 casting story is try to vary the way you size or length of shelf curing time or lube used or what sizer is used. My story is I use 50/50 for all my casting, from 9mm all the way up to my .416 Taylor and .45/70. Reloading is basically researching what works best in your particular weapons. There is no cut and dried answer to what works in everybodys guns.Robert

[milprileb]

Will Try to address emails posted and appreciate feed back.

Odfairfaxsub: Got Unique here to test, shot a little of it but not
seeing any accuracy benefits over WW231 and the latter meters
so much better. More tests will follow.

I don't use the carbide FCD by Lee although I have one. I seat with
Dillon Seating Die and crimp separately with RCBS crimp die.

I don't discount the possibility of swaging of bases but all my cast bullets
get sized in the Lyman 450 with .358 sizing die and lubed with BAC or 2500
lube. The varible in Lee 120 gr TC bullets seems to be that the 2#lead to 8#WW
does not lead and use of 5 # lead to 5#WW does lead.

However, the elimination of variables is indeed on my mind. Could be 1 or more at play.
I am convinced that I ought to get a Lyman M die and see if that helps me seat bullets with
no drama happening. It can't hurt but it might be a pound of prevention.

I shoot mixed brass and I have noticed brass might be brass but in 9mm, case walls vary greatly.

[fredj338]

(mm can be really fussy. Most times, if running around 1000-1200fps, ww alloy works well. You could try water dropping 50/50 alloy & see how that runs.

[Char-Gar]

Well, I got the bore size sorted out and cast 9mm bullets, size to .358 and use White Label lubes. My barrel does not lead any more.

Then I began experimenting with different alloys. I had been using 2# Lead to 8# WW and all was just fine.

Should have left it alone but got curious and casted a batch of bullets in 50% Lead and 50% WW metal, sized .358 and used WL lube.

Got leading. YMMV but for me, I am going back to 2: 8 alloy

Now you know what works and what doesn't work for you in your pistol. That is far better than all the Internet info and opinions, put together.

[knifemaker]

"50-50 mix, water quenched, bullets two months old before sizing and lubing". Could this be his problem for the leading? Could the sizing two months later cause a difference in the already harden bullets that was water quenched?

[sqlbullet]

Before I spent money on an M-die I would measure a bullet I had pulled from a loaded cartridge.

This has been the source of MANY MANY casters issue over the years.

Loading operations can size a bullet below the threshold needed for use. Harder bullets (8:2) would be less likely to do this.

But, it could be something else too.

Pull a bullet from a loaded round and let us know how it measured.

[Larry Gibson]

The mix of WW and pb can be high in antimony content and very low in tin content. The "leading" may very well be antimony depostits. I use that mix frequently with that very Lee bule sized .37/.358 in different 9mm hanguns, ,y Spanish Destroyer and in my 26" barreled 35 Rem. I never have any leading from 800 fps to 1450 fps. However I always add 2% tin to the WW beforeadding the 50% pb. This makes for a much better ternary alloy composition. I use 4 gr Bullseye in the 9mm. I also use Javelina but BAC should work fine at 9mm velocities. Not sure about 2500 at lower velocities though. I've not tried it but have heard a couple other bad reports. Works great at HV though, hence the 2500+ name.

I suggest adding 1-2% tin to your WW/pb alloy.

Larry Gibson

[buyobuyo]

I run WD 50/50 with the tin content raised to 1.5% in my 9 mm. I found that the M-dies were necessary to not swage the boolit when seating, even at ~20 BHN. I am using 2500+ for lube and don't have any leading issues at velocities around 1000 fps. 4.0 gr Unique gets me ~1050 fps and 6.5 gr AA7 gets me the same with the MP 359-125-HP.

Another thing to check would be the actual size of your sized boolits. Using the same 50/50 alloy and sizing die, I get 0.0005" - 0.001" difference in final size between air cool and water dropped boolits.

[milprileb]

I will get some tin and try that in the mix. Will move back to BAC lube.

I am worried about swaging down of bullet base and highly suspect that is
happening in this as well as other loads. I say this as a buddy took some of
my RN 124 gr Lee bullets of 2PB to 8WW water quenched and shot a 1 inch
group. I have never seen anything less than 5 inch group with that bullet
with same load, same seating depth.

[geargnasher]

Milprileb, do you own or have access to a kinetic bullet puller? If not, just run a case up through your press with no die installed, grab the boolit nose with side-cutting wire cutters, and lower the ram to extract the boolit. The part left in the case should remain undamaged and allow you to get an accurate measurement of the part that went into the case.

This simple measurement can indicate where your leading problem is originating. You're shootin' in the wind if your boolits are undersized when they exit the case, regardless of what you sized them do BEFORE seating them. Your gun doesn't care what you sized them to, or what size they actually were after exiting the .358"-marked sizer, what matters to the gun is the size they are when they actually go down the pipe, and if they're too small at that point they will lead your gun.

Boolit age is critical information to doping out problems with a load using low-antimony alloys, that's why I asked. Whether it's water-quenched or air cooled also makes about 10-15 BHN points difference, so that information matters A LOT also.

Other important things to measure when building any load: ID of expanded case, and also the depth of that expansion. Just because it's expanded enough for the first 1/8" to not swage the boolit doesn't mean the bottom half of the boolit isn't getting mashed when you seat it. Measuring a pulled boolit is the best way to tell if things are working like they should. Your powder type and charge weight is also very important to determine if the load is balanced reasonably well or if you're trying to drive a square peg in a round hole with your powder/lube/alloy choice. Speaking of alloy, you're finding out how much (or little, depending on the cartridge) alloy composition and strength matters to the final outcome. Sometimes simply making a slight toughness change to the alloy can shrink groups, even though both loads work well in the gun.

This is why I asked for the details, and why I asked that you'd provide some so we might have a clue as to what direction to point you in, otherwise it's just blind guessing and saying "well, I guess 50/50 is just a lousy alloy".

If your alloy availability dictates a preference to shoot 50/50, then you can find what needs to be changed to make the gun happy again, but if you have plenty of WW metal or some Rotometals Superhard to "stiffen up" softer alloy you may already have, then just use what works and forget about it. If you really want to make the 50/50 work, I'll bet you're going to need a custom expander spud in the neighborhood of .357" actual diameter, (which will leave the case about .356" after it springs back and give you .002" interference fit with .358" boolits) and long enough to expand the case about .025" below where the boolit base will be when seated to your preferred overall cartridge length.

Gear

[williamwaco]

Well, I got the bore size sorted out and cast 9mm bullets, size to .358 and use White Label lubes. My barrel does not lead any more.

Then I began experimenting with different alloys. I had been using 2# Lead to 8# WW and all was just fine.

Should have left it alone but got curious and casted a batch of bullets in 50% Lead and 50% WW metal, sized .358 and used WL lube.

Got leading. YMMV but for me, I am going back to 2: 8 alloy




Playing with ingredients is what we do here. There is an old saying: "If its not broke dont fix it." That wisdom would argue that you should never have tried another alloy after " . . . and all was just fine."

Many of us here simply cannot leave " well enough alone", I am one of them - so I have a suggestion:

I load and fire thousands of 50/50 lead/WW bullets every year. Most in .38 Special and .357 Magnum but a considerable number in 9mm and a few in .45ACP. I find this alloy to work flawlessly in all those calibers. I load them from about 750 fps in the .38 to 1700 fps in the .357 rifle and have no leading problems. I size .356 in the 9mm and .357 in the .38/.357. I have used .357 in the 9mm and it works fine.

Now the suggestion. I have found Lee Liquid Allox to be superior to the White Lable lubes with my loads in my guns. I am not knocking White Lable, it is good stuff, just stating that I find it abut 90% effective and LLA 99% effective.

( I am assuming you are using tumble lube. If not, try Lyman 50/50 alox beeswax or lyman Orange magic if you want a hard lube.)



.

[tomf52]

As many others here, I have had a long quest to avoid leading in my 9mm. I tried just about every conceivable variable to cure it and I wish I had kept better records but somehow I reached a point where I overcame the problem. Perhaps I found a load that didn't and just continued with that. I'm not sure but basically I am using air cooled WW with 1 to 2% tin, Lee liq alox, and low side of the charts loads of Bullseye. Sizing seems to make llittle or no difference. I shoot .356 to .3595 in my Kimber with no difference, they all chamber OK. The only leading I experience is sometimes a trace that is so faint you have to study the bore to detect it and it comes out with a pass of a dry patch and jag. I will say however that the several guns I own have bores that have the highest glossy bores that I have ever seen. Perhaps bore finish is more of an issue then we have been given credit to in our efforts with this. In my early days of casting when I was having leading I think I was just overdriving the loads. I must also add that all I do is paper punching so the moderate loads all suit my needs.

[williamwaco]

As many others here, I have had a long quest to avoid leading in my 9mm. I tried just about every conceivable variable to cure it and I wish I had kept better records but somehow I reached a point where I overcame the problem. Perhaps I found a load that didn't and just continued with that. I'm not sure but basically I am using air cooled WW with 1 to 2% tin, Lee liq alox, and low side of the charts loads of Bullseye. Sizing seems to make llittle or no difference. I shoot .356 to .3595 in my Kimber with no difference, they all chamber OK. The only leading I experience is sometimes a trace that is so faint you have to study the bore to detect it and it comes out with a pass of a dry patch and jag. I will say however that the several guns I own have bores that have the highest glossy bores that I have ever seen. Perhaps bore finish is more of an issue then we have been given credit to in our efforts with this. In my early days of casting when I was having leading I think I was just overdriving the loads. I must also add that all I do is paper punching so the moderate loads all suit my needs.


Agree completely.

Although I have never sized anything as large as .359, I have fired some "as cast" TLs at .360/.361.

I might add that I use Bullseye and Accurate No. 2 in the 9mm in moderate loads. Not mild, not hot.

Bore finish: The only handgun I never managed to shoot without leading was a "Real Big Handgun" .357 magnum. I will not mention the brand because they are first rate merchandise now. It was built during their early days and the bore was so rough that you could see the tool marks from the rifling cutter with you naked eye. I have not seen a bore like that since the early '60s.