rebounding boolits

[makicjf]

I found this to be interesting; to the more experienced it may by passe. All four of the .45 bullets I cast (lee 255 rnfp, lee 252 swc, lee 230 tltc and the lee 300 gc) cast at just over .454. I've been oven treating to roughly 18 (except the 230 its a plinker acp load and I let that air cool). I'll size to .452 then heat treat. While loading up some 255 ( really casts at almost 265 +/- 2 grains lubed) rnfp I put thge calipers on them- they were .454. Checked every one. .454. I know I sized them. The GC 300 were also .454, as were the 252 ( 255 from the ww ). They all chamber and shoot well, and get zero to just a touch of leading even on boomer loads. Is this normal? Unsized the bands are not as crisp as the sized loads, but at most I'm only sizing down.0005 after the bullet has cured. I'm guessing both rugers are at .4525 on throats as a .451 jacketed falls, a laser cast .452 swc pushed through with fingers and a .454 has to be pushed through with a rod. they both slug to to just over .451 and the rossi slugs to .452. they shoot well.
Is bullet rebound normal and should these sizes work without long term issues on the weapons?
Thanks
Jason

[JSnover]

Yep, it's normal. No, you won't have any issues. If you're not leading and the groups are tight, you're good to go.

[243winxb]

Q: I have run my bullets through the sizing die, however they do not come out at the expected diameter. These were cast in wheelweights, would that make a difference?
A: Yes, bullets cast in pure lead or wheelweights will come out smaller, bullets cast in linotype will come out larger. This is due to the spring-back of the bullets being sized. The sizing dies are made to produce the diameters using #2 alloy.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/faqs/ Lyman's FAQ said there is some spring back of the bullet after sizing. How much i do not know. If your saying your spring back is .002" i would say that is not normal from heat treating. Different alloy = Different results. :confused:

[williamwaco]

They all chamber and shoot well, and get zero to just a touch of leading even on boomer loads. Thanks
Jason




Jason,

If they all chamber and shoot well at .454,

why are you sizing them?

[makicjf]

Thats the million dollar question! I started sizing because I thought I had to make the boolits fit .001 over the bore. Then I read about the throats which are pretty close to .452-.4525 as best as I can tell. So again sizing seemed like the right thing to do. They cast between .454 and .455 and I was leary of making a big mistake. Then yesterday I realized all of the bullets I've been shooting through the rugers and the rossi in .45 (colt and acp) are rebounding to .454. The biggest benefit i can see to sizing now is uniformity. Sizing also seems to make the driving bands look more crisp. I don"t know if that has a benefit or not. The lee 309-170 for my 30/30 cast out at .312 and I've been gas checking and sizing to .311. Thsi thing is a tack driver over 30 grains of imr3031. they were at .312 when I checked some that I cast , checked and sized about a month ago.

[cbrick]

Jason, If they all chamber and shoot well at .454, why are you sizing them?

makicjf, welcome to CastBoolits.

Williamwaco is correct, if they chamber and shoot well at .454" why bother sizing down at all. Just use a size die that lubes only without sizing.

Next, calipers are a poor choice for measuring bullet diameter, they are designed and built for about .001" accuracy. For measuring bore slugs and sized bullets better accuracy is best.

Next, in 45 caliber why are you heat treating them? The BHN of air cooled WW is plenty hard and for low pressure rounds such as the 45 ACP could well be too hard already. You said they drop from the mold at .454"+ so just lube & load them and see how that works. Don't fall into the "hardcast hype, propaganda, nonesense".

.002" growth after sizing & heat treating? Not saying that isn't so but I have never experienced that much, could be the caliper measuring method. About .0004" is more like my results with WW alloy.

Rick

[williamwaco]

makicjf, welcome to CastBoolits.

Williamwaco is correct, if they chamber and shoot well at .454" why bother sizing down at all. Just use a size die that lubes only without sizing.


Rick


Or . . . tumble them. That is what I would do. I actually size mine to .452 then tumble them. Yes they are conventional one lube groove bullets and they work fine with Lee Liquid Alox.

[makicjf]

I'm trying to split the difference on most of the hardness of the 45 colt loads. All except the acp loads are "ruger only"and are fired in a 24 inch rossi 92 and both of my rugers (all 45 colt) My plinking load for the colt is 10.5 unique under the 265 or the 255. Fairly hot but this keeps me from flinching when I touch off a hunting load and keeps follow ups more possible should they be neccasary. The hunting loads are 24 grians h110 under the 265 or the 310 gc for pigs. These are fairly high pressure loads: I found an article somewhere that said 1400 fps to 1700fps falls between 15 and 18 bhn. I assume the hunting loads , from the rifle, are doing 1700 fps plus. i do not have a chrono yet. So I've been oven treating to 18 (one hour at 420 and dumping in ice water). The acp loads are 6 grains unique under the 230 tl tc. They are air cooled wheel weights.
Am i making to much work for myself?
As to the measuring I would suppose its rough and ready. i use the upper straight edges of a pair of lyman dial calipers and dial in until the bullet won't drop. I try to be consistent in my methodology, but bullets are a long way from horses feet and forging shoes! I'm just trying to be safe, consistent and get the best results. I am really thankful for this site and all of you folks sharing. it seems the more i read the more confused I get. Though my boolits and loads are shooting well, no real leading in the revolvers and just a touch in the rossi. The 30/30 is as clean as a whistle after 20-30 rounds and drilling holes in the red.I still have way more doubts and concerns than answers.
To recapp- is 18 bhn to hard for 23-32000 cup loads?
atleast I know the bullet rebound is normal.
Thanks!
Jason

[243winxb]

is 18 bhn to hard for 23-32000 cup loads?
If you go by the Lee chart, 18 BHN pressure is 22852 PSI . Not to hard IMO. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeChart.jpg

[mroliver77]

Jason,
I don;t know if 18bhn is too hard but I bet it is unnecessary. Try some air cooled WW just for kicks.

There are a few differing schools of thought on loading for cast. It can get rather confusing if Joe Blow tells you that 8 bhn is hard enough and from his posts we know he can shoot the eyebrows off a gnat ALL DAY LONG@ 100 yards.

Then we have Larry Lugnut (who argues with JB repeatedly ) telling us that you must use 24bhn boolits to shoot over 1200 fps. He regularly shoots the earings off of fruit flies @ 200 yards.

Who do we believe? Well I experimented myself with hard and with soft. I found that softening up most of my boolits helped get rid of leading. I am a fare hundgun shot and know when I am doing it right. When my body cooperates I can do things with a handgun that most shooters (excepting CB members :) )would not believe possible. So it is working for me.

I tell you; I read Glen Fryxells book over on LASC site and cannot argue with much that he states. A fellow could do much worse than just floowing Glens way until things were working well for and then start experimenting.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

I don't know about other peoples calipers but I bought a cheap pair of digital ones from Harbour Freight. I compared measurments on many diferent boolits and such and get the same reading as my Starret micrometer. I still use the mic for measuring boolits but would trust MY calipers for goverment jobs. ;)
J

243 posted while I was typing........
The Lee chart and $1.59 will get you a coffee at Circle K.
It is usable but in my experience it sgests alloy harder than needed.

[geargnasher]

The Lee 300 boolit with a gas check could stand to be much weaker, but like has been said before, if they shoot good and don't lead, it doesn't matter, keep doing what works.

Gear

[makicjf]

Thanks to everyone. I really appreciate the information, links and advice. The bit on hunting bullet harndess helped as well. I was shooting at 4 inch logs the other day and recovered quit a few of the 230 tc. They had almost penetrated and were mushroomed a bunch. I recovered none of the 18 bhn flats or wadcutters: they also knocked these logs around like twigs. Tailoring hardness to the proposed purpose of the projectile makes good sense. I hunt in an area rife with hogs, so if a target of opportunity presented its smelly, grunting self I'd like to be able to penetrate both shoulders and drop him DRT. Shoulder shooting skinny Texas deer with a 260/265 fp might be overkill, though!:shock:
In some ways this hobby is a lot like shoeing horses, lots of options, lots of schools of thought and only a few set in stone rules. Outcome is sometimes as important at methodology: results are what matter.
Thanks again. I am certain I'll have more questions in the future
jason

[x101airborne]

In my VERY limited experience, boolit springback is directly related to alloy hardness. I have never heat treated a boolit, so cannot comment, but when I FIRST cast for my 44 mag, I did not know better and used pure lino water dropped. Sure, it worked ok. Sizing was pretty much a futile effort. As I learned more and some of the more experienced members here took me under their wing, I started trying softer and softer alloys both water quenched and air cooled. The gas checked boolits I use in my 44 mag are Ranch Dog 310 grainers 25/75 WW/pure air cooled. Mushrooms nicely, shoots more accurately than the same mold out of lino. I am also trying the same alloy in the 50 beowulf hollow pointed. For plain base boolits, I use the same alloy, just water dropped. So far, my BHN's are around 11 for air cooled and 18 for water quenched. Seems to suit my purpose fairly well.

BTW... Welcome to the insanity..... I mean quest!

[44man]

Lead hardness has very little to do with leading until you get so soft the boolit skids instead of taking the rifling. Too soft will also slump a boolit so far from what was cast, you will wonder why a chunk of lead wire was not used! ;-)
Most leading is a poor fit and gas leakage and softer can actually prevent leading. But the right boolit can also be very hard without any leading too. Hard boolits do not cause leading, something else will be wrong.
There is a WIDE range of hardness that will not lead a bore so accuracy from your gun is the only thing to search for. I shoot revolvers and I like 20 to 22 BHN and that is what my WD, WW's come out. That is where I reduce fliers and improve accuracy and at my velocity they work perfect on any animal.
What concerns me about the 1700 fps from the rifle with hard lead is you will need to shoot bone, (shoulders) or CNS shots. Those boolits are really too hard for hunting at that velocity.
I am one to say faster is not always better unless the boolit is made to work there. I love boolits with the perfect amount of expansion without a loss of penetration and am always in conflict between the best accuracy and a better hunting boolit in the revolver. It is why I stay at a certain velocity and never exceed that.
When you go to the store to buy factory jacketed loads, you will pick a bullet that will work on the size of the animal. Treat cast the same way, they are not magic. The difference is that the factory has done a lot of work on bullets for you but you must do your own with boolits.
To keep accuracy, make the base hard and put a softer nose on the boolit. That extends the velocity a long way in both directions.
I like hard but there are spots I hate it and if I could shoot softer, I would so my answer is the narrow velocity window with the revolver. A rifle should shoot softer with a GC because you don't need the same case tension and there is no jump to a forcing cone.
Now take a 50-50 alloy of WW's and pure with a GC like Babore uses, oven harden to 20 BHN, accuracy is good and you will not change the ductile properties or expansion. In fact, they can be EXPLOSIVE so understand BHN readings don't mean much at all.
I don't like BHN the same as I hate Greenhill for twist, neither really works. BHN is a hardness standard but tells you zero what is in your alloy or how it works for hunting. Some say 12 BHN is right but could their alloy be TOUGHER then a 30 BHN boolit?
See where I am going? A hardness tester is like a chronograph. The machine will not find accuracy for you, leave it home when working loads, look at the target ONLY. A BHN reading is like a 5 FPS, ES because you might have thrown shots all over the place.

[243winxb]

My current running test shows no increase in diameter from oven heat treating on 3-27-10 till now. Alloy is magnum shot, lead with 6% antimony. Oven heat treated after sizing to .430" then water cooled in tap water. Air cooling is my normal method for the last 40 years. Some alloy will need linotype added at times. My thumb nail does the test for hardness. Shooting light target loads to full maximum loadings in 38, 357, 45acp 44mag, rifles with gas checks, 30-30, 30-06 . Doing your own testing is always best. :)

[Boerrancher]

44man is correct about BHN being over rated. I shoot a 50-50 alloy like he talks about in his last paragraph. It is soft, but it is tough. I shoot 150 and 180 gr GC boolits out of my 30-30 at better than factory load velocities. That rifle has well over 1000 rounds through it and I have yet to run a patch through it, and it will consistently shoot less that 2 inch groups at 100 yds with the iron sights. Either of those bullets will just flat out turn a deer upside down. I use the same alloy for both of my 45LC Rossi's and my Ruger Blackhawk. with 11 grs of Unique behind a Lee 255gr RNFP. I have yet to have a 'yote or a deer either one get away. I don't heat treat, water drop, or any of that.

The point I am trying to make is that it is not rocket science to make any hand gun cartridge, or any of the old rimmed rifle cartridges shoot well at the velocities they were intended to shoot, using cast boolits. If the boolit is large enough to not let gas blow by it as it is going down the bore, you have a lube that the bore of the gun likes, and the bore of the gun is capable of shooting good to begin with, you don't need to stress about how hard the lead is, or any of that. Pure lead is fired by the millions of rounds at 1,100 fps out of 22 cal rim fire rifles.

Best wishes,

Joe

[makicjf]

played about a bit last night with some of the acp loads from the ruger. Shot the air cooled ww into a four inch log. The load is 6 g unique under a lee 230 (240 actual) tl tc. Fired a from a 4 5/8 blackhawk. Short oal of 1.170 to facilitate headspacing. My uneducated s.w.a.g is it is cooking along at 850-900 fps. Great, quiet plinking load. The 12 bhn into dried wood opened up to nealy 3/4 of an inch and did not penetrate but split the log and was stuck. The same load with an oven treated boolit to approx. 18 bhn blew right through . I dug it out of my "mini berm". It had minimal noise distortion and zero expansion. . It was really interesting to see how hardness affected bullet performance.
Thanks
Jason