house gun

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i did not know were to post this so i put it here.the home invasion post got me thinking
i dont have a house gun all i have are hunting guns what would be a good house gun
thanks jim

[elk hunter]

I keep a shot barreled 12 gauge loaded with birdshot behind the bedroom door. It shouldn't shoot through a wall and hurt the neighbors or someone in the next room, but shoot a cardboard box with it at ten feet and see what happens. Even a small handgun round could exit the house and end up somewhere it shouldn't.

[Dan Cash]

Considering that you live in Illinois, you may already have your house gun in the form of a shotgun. Your duck hunting 1100 or 870 or similar repeating shotgun supplied with an extra 18 inch barrel will serve just fine. I personally prefer a hand gun for the purpose but sometimes it is too difficult to own.

[RU shooter]

Any thing is better than a sharp stick ! Your better off thinking more about a home defense plan than what the "ideal gun" is.

[bobthenailer]

i have a 12 ga with a 18 1/2 inch barrel with a pistol grip and 4 handguns stached throught the house & garage + the one im carring at the time which i put in one of those new bed holsters assy that fit between the mattres & box spring at night . Just remember to hid all guns so they dont break in and find them or possibley use them on you !

[Sonnypie]

My plan includes a sawed off double barrel 12 gauge with a mixed load in each barrel.
It also has a laser mounted under the barrels and sighted in with the sights I put on it. Where that dot is, is where a huge hole appears.
The "lay of the land" in my house has expected ranges of less, to much less than 20 feet.
My smooth bore, with plastic wads, holds a very tight pattern.

If I were to consider a new house gun, it would be a short barreled pump.
Nothing has that "Poop In Your Pants Factor" like the sound of a pump shotgun racking in a shell somewhere ahead of you in the dark, to somebody in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
If it were to come to hand-to-hand, it could be used effectively to neutralize the threat, if all else failed. (Beat their head in)

I never have pointed my weapons at anything I did not intend to kill.
Are you sure you are ready to go there?
Because if not, you may wind up being killed with your own weapon.

There are alternatives to consider, less than lethal defense items. Ranging from wasp and hornet spray, to pepper spray, to tasers.
The intent with a firearm is to kill. It is deadly force. And not a great choice for an apartment dweller, or a condominium owner.

I consider myself too old to fight. So I would just kill somebody who broke in. :wink:

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i do have a pump 887 that i won from ducks unlimited last year if i can find a short barrel for
it that would work nice i know that i wont use in the field
thank you for all the info

[P.K.]

Any thing is better than a sharp stick ! Your better off thinking more about a home defense plan than what the "ideal gun" is.


That there is the best .02 yet. Too many folks think that the weapon is the key to preparedness. A good "castle" is key and having a plan to execute is paramount. The reason the castle comment is that just a door lock is not enough. No routine entry door is going to hold up to a concerted effort from even a garden variety critter. You want it to be able to generate some time and if need be "breathing" room for you to round up the family/ or rally point if the kids are old enough. then you have a defensable position from which to fight. Ideally the point of entry will be the furthest from your rally/collection point. In my case it's the master bedroom, where we have rear facing windows to hop out if needed.

Aside from beefing up the entry ways the ground level windows are next. All have wood dowels on either side of the jam to keep them closed even if scruffy brings a fillet knife to slip the paynes and toggle the locks.

The Garage is prolly the most over looked entry in the house. And depending on construction maybe the easiest, because most places (that I know of) have at least two maybe three exits out of it. The main door/s, an access door( interestingly enough, not seeing many of these anymore) and the access to the house if attached. I can't hear the door to mine go up even if I'm in my kitchen. How many of us have left the vehicle in the drive and forgotten to lock it? I have and I shudder each time I recall that I have left my family vulnerable. [smilie=b:

[Love Life]

Can't beat the good old shotgun. Load it with birdshot and call it a day. I don't care what anybody says because bird shot will kill you deader than hell at house distances, and it is cheap and easy to practice with. At 15 feet birdshot will punch a nice fist sized hole through a car hood. Just something to think about.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

lots to think about my first defense plan is my dogs one liks to sleep by the front door
and one in our room i like to think they will wake me up in time to arm myself or my wife

[leadman]

If you decide on a handgun you could load it with the fragible rounds, like the Glaser or others.

they do make shotguns shells with rubber balls in it if you wanted something less then lethal.

[thehouseproduct]

I keep a shot barreled 12 gauge loaded with birdshot behind the bedroom door. It shouldn't shoot through a wall and hurt the neighbors or someone in the next room, but shoot a cardboard box with it at ten feet and see what happens. Even a small handgun round could exit the house and end up somewhere it shouldn't.
I won't argue but I will say that this web page has some valuable real world testing to look at when making decisions about ammo.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

I basically have decided that I cannot count on any ammo not causing problems when I miss. I know in my head that I need to decide that I would rather fire and deal with the consequences of a missed shot than not shoot.

[KCSO]

I think a bowling ball cannon would be ideal for houses, but I have to settle for just my 2" wall gun.

[Recluse]

Can't beat the good old shotgun. Load it with birdshot and call it a day. I don't care what anybody says because bird shot will kill you deader than hell at house distances, and it is cheap and easy to practice with. At 15 feet birdshot will punch a nice fist sized hole through a car hood. Just something to think about.

+1

Bird shot at close range, especially full choke, is lethal.

Plus, nothing but nothing gives serious pause to a scumbag like the sound of a pump-action shotgun being racked. If that moves the scumbag(s) away from you and/or out of the house, double-win for you.

:coffee:

[MtGun44]

I was told by a SWAT officer friend that the 40 gr super explosive type of varmint bullets in
.223 exited the second piece of sheet rock (one wall) as fragments that might cause a minor
wound or seriously injure an eye, but would not be a deadly projectile. I have yet to test this
myself.

Bill

[PAI-Scott]

I am away from home a lot, so I need something the wife (a non shooter) can trust and operate.

Option 1 - 75 pound German dog that has no fear, and bites every stranger that gets with in 10 of a family member (pain in the a$$, but you would not believe the piece of mind that brings)

Option 2 - 20 gage autoloader with 5 shells of bird shot (don't want to kill the dog)

[P.K.]

I am away from home a lot, so I need something the wife (a non shooter) can trust and operate.

Option 1 - 75 pound German dog that has no fear, and bites every stranger that gets with in 10 of a family member (pain in the a$$, but you would not believe the piece of mind that brings)

Option 2 - 20 gage autoloader with 5 shells of bird shot (don't want to kill the dog)

Prolly won't need #2. Most but the really strung out "Tweekers" will pass your plaxe up if there is evidence of a dog preasent.

But have #2 on hand.

[firefly1957]

A dog only improves your awareness it's sole job is to let you know something is wrong. As for a house gun that is so complicated It will take a long time to decide and then you need to train with it . It is quite possible that your first warning of a home invasion is when you are attacked in bed a shotgun behind the bedroom door may not help you.

Than there is a matter of safety do you have kids guests..... That should not be around guns? What about YOU do you have a bit much and lose control? this subject is very complicated and needs serious study for your safety and legal well being.

My "HOUSE GUN" is a Sig P-220 (Browning BDA) 45 acp loaded with 230gr Starfires I have used it without firing a shot to repel a couple criminals and to defend My dog from a pit bull that was trying to kill her in my yard. Remember this to the more energy the better and if you decide on a shotgun #4 shot at even 25 yds will penetrate to lungs and heart anything closer is VERY EFFECTIVE but must be aimed not pointed.

[Storydude]

Whichever one I happen to grab first. All are lethal to an intruder.

[Blacksmith]

Primary is a short 18.5" barrel pump shotgun progressively loaded from birdshot to slug. Ultimate last stand is a single shot pistol in .45-70 that would knock the plaster off the walls if shot inside but would stop a buffalo.

Blacksmith

[txbirdman]

Recently got a barrel from another board member for my 1100 Rem 12 ga. I cut the barrel to 18.5 inches and bought a clipon fiber optic sight that attaches to the vent rib via magnet. I live in the country so 00 buck is what I use which puts all 9 pellets into a 12 inch circle at 20 yds. Fiber optic (green) sight really is easy to pickup in dim light.

[1Shirt]

Think a short (but legal) bbl double bbl 20 gage is as good a house gun as you can have. It is easy to use, my wife is comfortable shooting it, etc. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[colt 357]

lots to think about my first defense plan is my dogs one liks to sleep by the front door
and one in our room i like to think they will wake me up in time to arm myself or my wife

Me too I came into the house from the garage with paint coveralls and paint socking on my head and my one dog got between me and my wife and turned into the exercist. I had to take off the paint socking to settle him down. He was about to get mid evil on my a**.

[JudgeBAC]

My nieces husband is a trauma surgeon. I asked his opinion on the effectiveness of handgun rounds, rifle rounds and shotgun rounds. He has treated them all; however, he says that generally speaking he doesn't see the shotgun patients. Typically they are in the morgue.

[DIRT Farmer]

+1 on the dog. I was in a lot of houses as a medic, those little ankle biters make it hard to concentrate on your job. You know they are just inside the door and would give you time to call backup.
As far as a gun the best question is are you ready and willing to use it. I happen to prefure revolvers. The gun already has second strike capability, with practice can be loaded as fast as a simi auto using a speed loader allowing gun and ammo to be kept seperatly if children are around.
Another consideration, if you are awaken from a sound sleep are you up to speed instantly? two actions allow time for the fog of sleep to disapate.
And there is an 870 express deer special with a speed feed stock and four rounds near the night stand.

[Echo]

My recommendation - a Ruger LCR loaded with wadcutter (H&G 50, Lyman 358495) handloads. For training SWMBO, the loads can be cut down to 2 grs BE =- for social work, 3.5 grs works for me. Good quality, reliable, and easy to train with.

[colt 357]

Whichever one I happen to grab first. All are lethal to an intruder.

true a .22 lr can end the invasion. so can a aluminum softball bat, wood ones break. Can't remember were I heard this but a woman was making mac and cheese on the stove when a guy broke in and she let him have it, pan full of boiling water. 3rd degree burns to the face chest and arms. He was arrested a few weeks later when he was released from the hospital.

[FISH4BUGS]

No kidding. A Serbu Super Shorty. Made on a Mossberg 500 with a 6" barrel, 3 shot with a folding front grip. This one is in 20 ga 3". Great #2 or #4 buckshot gun....and yes, it is registered as an AOW.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_6194ebb0a34e5abb.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2651)

[Adam10mm]

Bird shot at close range, especially full choke, is lethal.

Buckshot has much better terminal performance than birdshot. When I worked in the morgue in Green Bay, you could easily tell the birdshot from buckshot. The birdshot was superficial. The buckshot had deep wound cavities.


Plus, nothing but nothing gives serious pause to a scumbag like the sound of a pump-action shotgun being racked. If that moves the scumbag(s) away from you and/or out of the house, double-win for you.

:coffee:
Respectfully, I disagree. I don't grab a pump shotgun to scare someone. I grab it to shoot someone. Not everyone knows what the sound is. If someone does, you just let them know where you are and what you have. The NRA magazines post stories of self defense incidents. In the several years I've been getting the rags, I've never ran across an article that had an intruder run away at the sound of a shotgun round being chambered.

[ErikO]

Did anyone else get the willies looking down that barrel of the hand cannon?

My plan is a Mossberg 590A1 20", dutch loaded with bird/buck/buck/buck/slug/buck/slug and a birdshot in the chamber with the safety on. If I need more than the first three, the balloon's gone up and I've already lost my security deposit...

[FISH4BUGS]

Why on earth load birdshot in the first round? The gun, at that point, is a tool to be used to stop the encounter. Use the best tool for the job. #4 buck is about as good as it gets. My Super Shorty has a pattern of about 2 feet wide at 15 feet. #4 buck is vitually guaranteed to stop whatever it is you are shooting at, and you don't really have to aim.
I'll admit they kind of hurt to shoot but the 20 ga. 3 in magnums are very powerful rounds.....and forget about the movie scene of "racking the slide". That leaves me with only 2 shots!
What is funny about this gun is that it gets more ooohs and aaahhs at the range than do the machine guns. Most people have seen machine guns....no one has seen a Serbu Super Shorty!
The funnest gun around!...and my house gun.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_6194ebc23764e78a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2658)

[ErikO]

Excelent points. Unfortunately, I don't think that I'd have an easy time in my location getting LEO approval for AOWs. :( Yet another reason to move to the next county over.

I definately see the value in keeping with one type of ammo.

[Suo Gan]

A Mossberg 500, get an extra 18.5 inch barrel for home defense for $80 and turn it into a nice dual purpose gun. A lever gun will work, a pump rifle, a small carbine, an SKS. Pretty much any handgun.

Here are some of my opinions in no particular order:
I love 1911's and the 45acp, but when we would take the guns to the boneyard when I was a kid, the 45's would never penetrate the doors of the cars or tractors, since then I have never considered it a good self defense choice. The 9mm always did go through one side and sometimes out the other (these were old cars, not the tin can ones of today). Killed a feral dog with a 380 one time and it was not a clean kill, I would not trust any of the small auto calibers for serious home defense. 357 mag is a good choice and I personally like a 44 magnum with a 6 inch barrel, either of these will surely take the fight out of a criminal intent on harming your family. If over penetration is something you do not want, I would go with a shotgun in 12 or 20. My dad killed a deer with a 20 gauge and bird shot when I was a kid, it was eating ma's flowers and he went out and shot it and it dropped dead, then again, I have shot crows with one and they flew off! If it is not something you are worried about, an SKS or short barreled lever gun are hard to beat. I like to keep a 444 Marlin ready to go myself. The racking lever or the racking of the SKS action has an ominous sound effect too. When I was a kid we cut down a 12 gauge shotgun. We used it for many months and it was a kicking machine! It even drew blood on occasion. The sheriff caught us with it and promptly added it to his collection!

[FISH4BUGS]

Excelent points. Unfortunately, I don't think that I'd have an easy time in my location getting LEO approval for AOWs. :( Yet another reason to move to the next county over.

I definately see the value in keeping with one type of ammo.

If your LEO won't sign, there are others that can and do. County Attorney, a judge, etc. PM me if you need that info and I can get it for you.
SBR's and AOW's are the fun guns of today. Machine guns have gotten simply too expensive to own, much less shoot. I am lucky that I got mine years ago when they were cheap.
I cast for all the pistol caliber subguns otherwise I couldn't afford to shoot.

[ErikO]

Fish4bugs, I will definately PM you when I'm in the position to pick up either an SBS or an AOW. I was operating under the mistaken idea that only the 'top cop' can sign for things like this, glad to be educated!

[lmcollins]

OK guys: Enlighten me. What is an "SBS" or a "AOW?"

[P.K.]

"Short Black Shotgun" and "Area only Weapon?" No idea.....Guy's? Explain for us old timers.

[txbirdman]

Seems to me that the auto shotguns have advantage over the pumps since they can be operated with only 1 hand if necessary.

[Adam10mm]

OK guys: Enlighten me. What is an "SBS" or a "AOW?"
Short Barreled Shotgun. Shotgun with barrels less than 18 inches or overall length less than 26 inches.

Any Other Weapon. Catch all for smoothbore handguns, pen guns, cane guns, etc.

Both of these fall under the National Firearms Act, which determines that these as well as fully automatic firearms, short barreled rifles (SBR), and sound suppressors (ie silencers) are so evil that they are to be heavily regulated and each time it changes owners a $200 tax must be paid (or $5 tax in the case of an AOW). Originally handguns were to be included as an "AOW" but the legislature thought it wasn't right to tax a woman wanting a handgun to protect herself, so they were left out of the law.

[FISH4BUGS]

OK guys: Enlighten me. What is an "SBS" or a "AOW?"

He said it well. The collecting and shooting fraternity that owns machine guns has to deal with some very onerous regulations. You buy the gun, (the dealer holds it until approval) pay the dealer usually in full, then fill out paperwork. 2 sets of fingerprints and mug shots along with your Chief signing off that you are not a prohibited person. Then it all goes (with your $200 or $5 check) to the ATFE. They make sure you are a nice guy (and trust me when I say that when you get checked out, you get checked out) and anywhere from 90-180 days later, you get the approval to have the gun transferred to you from the dealer. You cannot take it across State lines without filing a form (a 5320), or send the gun to a gunsmith for work (a form 5).
Full auto, Short barrel rifles, supressors, and short barrel shotguns have a $200 tax stamp to pay along with the cost of the gun, the transfer fee from the dealer, and shipping. The cost of owning full auto is astronomical. For instance, the Colt M16 I bought in 1986 for $725 is now a $13,000+ gun. The Uzi was $900 originally, now $6000. I am grateful that I bought mine when they were cheap.
Reason? No more full auto was manufactured for civilian use after 1986. Fixed supply - increasing demand results in higher and higher prices! Even lowly Macs that probably cost $50 to make are now $3000 guns. Belt fed guns are even more astronomical. Thompsons? Forget it.
AOW's have a $5 tax stamp. They are still registered with the ATFE and the purchase price (typically not all that different from the regular rifle) and tax is easier to absorb by the buyer.
The collecting fraternity has turned to SBR's (I have a Colt factory AR15 with a 11.5" barrel - a registered SBR), some supressors, and the Serbu Super Shorty, plus the regular assortment of handguns and rifles) because they are less expensive than machine guns.
There are state and local ownership restrictions all over the place. Check your local laws before attempting to own. Sometimes the local police chief does not like people owning Class 3 stuff so he doesn't sign off, thus effectively killing the sale. There ARE options for you, however. if that happens. A judge or the County Attorney can sign off.
A great board for this kind of stuff is www.subguns.com. Highly recommended.
What does this have to do with Cast Boolits? Try shooting 1000 9mm or 1000 380's or 1000 45 auto in an afternoon with factory or even reloaded jacketed ammo. Thank you Hensley & Gibbs 6-8-10 cavity moulds, Star sizers and Dillon 550's! Casting and reloading has allowed me to still enjoy this sport!

[fishnbob]

I too like the sound of a 7-shot pump being racked in the middle of the night. That sound should strike fear in the heart & mind of any intruder. It gives me cold chills. It is loaded with Defense Rounds of a slug and 3 buckshot that will shoot through any vehicle. Dangerous but deadly. I am a light sleeper. It is the only pump shotgun I own. Everything else is semi-auto which I hunt with for quail & deer. Home invasions are becoming commonplace and the crack and meth heads are desperate for enough money to stay high. I wouldn't attempt to wound one as I couldn't afford to take care of them for the rest of their pathetic lives. The Castle Doctrine is not law here in Virginia, so you have to make sure it is self defense and you exausted every opportunity to escape the invader. Make sense to you? Go with the pump and know how to use it! Have a plan to know where everyone in your house is and drill them to seek cover with a cell phone and stay there until you clear the house.

[Adam10mm]

That sound should strike fear in the heart & mind of any intruder.
Should, but doesn't.

[bmanis]

I have a very old Remington UMC 11-R "Riot Gun" 12 guage. It was designed with one purpose in mind.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
1ST line of home defense is me.
2nd line is gun, sword, whatever I choose.
Just like with a house fire, have a plan, practice the plan.
Whatever you choose, practice with It.
Lot of good suggestions have already been made. CHOOSE WHAT FITS YOU & YOUR SITUATION & PRACTICE.:Fire::Fire:

[MtGun44]

Is the Rem 11 the Browning designed hump back with the knurled barrel for
cocking?

Bill

[Recluse]

Buckshot has much better terminal performance than birdshot. When I worked in the morgue in Green Bay, you could easily tell the birdshot from buckshot. The birdshot was superficial. The buckshot had deep wound cavities.

At the literal point-blank range distances you're talking about in a home-invasion, the birdshot will do the job.

I've seen it too many times, in person, firsthand.

No arguing that buckshot will do better, but birdshot will do the job and it will put the invader/attacker down.



Respectfully, I disagree. I don't grab a pump shotgun to scare someone. I grab it to shoot someone. Not everyone knows what the sound is. If someone does, you just let them know where you are and what you have. The NRA magazines post stories of self defense incidents. In the several years I've been getting the rags, I've never ran across an article that had an intruder run away at the sound of a shotgun round being chambered.

I've read plenty of Armed Citizen reports where just the mere mention of "I've got a gun!" has scared off would-be burglars. Likewise over the past thirty-plus years, I've read plenty of reports where pump-action shotguns being worked, slides on semi-autos being racked and bolts being worked on hunting rifles have sent would-be burglars or attackers fleeing.

Likewise, I've read stories/accounts in the Armed Citizen where burglars/home-invaders have come face-to-face with ARMED homeowners and continued the attack.

There are no constants when it comes to criminals.

If I can make it the rest of my life without ever having to shoot and/or take the life of another human being, I'll be happy. Thus, if racking the action on my shotgun gives some burglar or home-invader pause and has them strongly re-considering their actions and deciding to leave, I'll be very happy about that. If not, then I'll do what I have to do.

There is no joy whatseover in pulling the trigger on another human being. Better them than you, but there is still no joy in it whatsoever.

If I can deter that in any non-lethal way, that is my FIRST choice.


The problem as I see it with the racking a pump slide, is not only does let the bad guy(s) know the whereabouts of you, but is also one less round than FULL capacity . . . because if there was one in the chamber, it is now on the floor! [smilie=1:


In my old (LE) agency, we were absolutely, one-hundred percent forbidden from ever keeping a round chambered in our Remington shotguns.

We used to give a very nifty demonstration to new agents/deputies at Glynco (FLETC) as to why. Lot of "sunroofs" in radio cars where loaded and chambered shotguns used to be stored in the upright position.

The safety on those shotguns is for the trigger--NOT the hammer. One good "jarring" and you'll get one helluva accidental discharge. We used to demonstrate that with brand new shotguns right out of the manufacturer's box as well as with "veteran" shotguns.

In a home environment, I simply refuse to leave a chambered shotgun anywhere--including the safe.

:coffee:

[Adam10mm]

At the literal point-blank range distances you're talking about in a home-invasion, the birdshot will do the job.
If close enough, yes. Birdshot is low in mass which equates to low penetration. In a fight for my life, I won't put my trust in anecdotes. I'm sure somewhere along the line a butterknife saved someone's life, but I still carry a Cold Steel tanto blade.


I've read plenty of Armed Citizen reports where just the mere mention of "I've got a gun!" has scared off would-be burglars. Likewise over the past thirty-plus years, I've read plenty of reports where pump-action shotguns being worked, slides on semi-autos being racked and bolts being worked on hunting rifles have sent would-be burglars or attackers fleeing.
I tend not to bank on that.


Likewise, I've read stories/accounts in the Armed Citizen where burglars/home-invaders have come face-to-face with ARMED homeowners and continued the attack.
This is why. I don't take chances in a "very loud noise situation".


There are no constants when it comes to criminals.
Absolutely agree. My shotgun is loaded 4+1 for this. Does that "extra" round count? I hope to never find out if it does, but will be glad when it's there ready to be sent to save lives.



There is no joy whatseover in pulling the trigger on another human being. Better them than you, but there is still no joy in it whatsoever.
I would argue I/my family lived versus I/my family was murdered. There is joy in the former, not the latter, but not for the taking of life. For the saving of lives.


If I can deter that in any non-lethal way, that is my FIRST choice.
Which is why I always answer the front door naked.



In my old (LE) agency, we were absolutely, one-hundred percent forbidden from ever keeping a round chambered in our Remington shotguns.

We used to give a very nifty demonstration to new agents/deputies at Glynco (FLETC) as to why. Lot of "sunroofs" in radio cars where loaded and chambered shotguns used to be stored in the upright position.

The safety on those shotguns is for the trigger--NOT the hammer. One good "jarring" and you'll get one helluva accidental discharge. We used to demonstrate that with brand new shotguns right out of the manufacturer's box as well as with "veteran" shotguns.

In a home environment, I simply refuse to leave a chambered shotgun anywhere--including the safe.

:coffee:
Handguns in holsters being the exception, I'm not a fan of loaded chamber carry for long guns in vehicles either.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see, I have a 1911 between the mattresses a 12 guage pump by the night stand. An ar15 by the bedroom door. A 1911 in a cabinet drawer in the living room. another ar15 in the entrance way closet.

[bmanis]

MTgun44,

Yes it is.

[MtGun44]

bmanis,

Thanks - I saw one of those many years ago and wondered why they were'nt more common
as police shotguns. Seemed like a good one for the job to me.

I surely agree with Recluse - I will be very pleased if I never need to use a firearm in self
defense. I have the skills, and I believe I have the temperment, to do it if there are no
other options, but I have no illusions about the risk of the fight or the aftermath being
much different than many think they will be - and not in a good way.

Bill

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Gentlemen. in my LE career, I met a man who while drunk had attacked his brother with a knife, stabbed him 5 times, & killed him. HE WAS SHOT WITH A 12GU. AT THE BOTTOM OF 5 PORCH STEPS, BY HIS BROTHER BEFORE HE ATTACKED.Maybe 10' +/-, bird shot. I have seen the scar entrance & exit wound, from belly button to left flank, diagram to hip bone.
IT DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK OUT THE WAY YOU THINK IT WILL.
I would not want to get in a fight with this guy.
MURPHY'S LAW RULES IN ALL COMBAT SITUATIONS.:Fire::Fire:

[Love Life]

I'll stick with my 357 magnums.

Absolutely buckshot is better suited to the purpose, but birdshot will kill all day long at house ranges. Let us not forget that marksmenship is still required here.

The reason I mentioned birdshot is because A) it will kill people B) it is cheap to practice with.

[thehouseproduct]

Everyone should have a solid picture of the bird vs buck question. Please see these pictures.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

While birdshot and 22lr can cause bad days. I'm going to stick with as dead as possible when I have to shoot someone.

[Artful]

Shotgun with pistol backup at my house unless I feel more threatened in which case a rifle will come out for more reach - Shotgun has slugs and Low Recoil 12 Gauge 2-3/4" Buffered 00 Buckshot carried on/in it - slugs on side of receiver and buckshot in tube - chamber empty - Slugs can reach out to 75-100 yds with point sights on shotgun - If I install red-Dot you can hit man size target out to 200 yards (hold about 6 apparent body lengths above). I would not trust birdshot for home defense. Especially in cold climates where people wear bulky heavy wet clothing. Few get the chance to shoot at naked torso's.

My HD of choice is Remington 870 with extended mag down loaded by one (ie weapon hold 8+1 but only put 7 in mag tube)
- handy if you need to change ammo -just shove it up the mag port, next round is your choice of specialty (slug) ammo.
I have Fiber optic Sight and surefire forearm for light (switch on- ID - shoot or not, switch off and move to new location)
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6029/remington8703gunshotty.jpg
I also have (not shown in picture) additional ammo storeage that will velcro to butt stock and I have a sling that can be mounted to it.
Barrel is Improved Cylinder chocked - becareful to match for best accuracy with your slugs.
It's old gold, worked first part of life thru game fields then 2nd part of life was remade for use in 3 gun match's
- now resting in retirement/standby

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
That is the best post o shotgun ammo performance I have seen.
#4 buck sure seems a good choice in a home.:Fire::Fire:

[garym1a2]

Glock17/19/21/22/23/34/35; M&P or Springfield equiv.
Keep at least 13 rounds in the mag and learn how to use it.

My 870 is great, so is the AR15 and the Kimber 1911, but for a house gun I need speed to get the first round off before they open up and its hard to do with a shotgun. Inside a house distance and I don't miss with the Glock and can handle multiple bad guys if needed plus stick it in my pocket to answer the door.






i did not know were to post this so i put it here.the home invasion post got me thinking
i dont have a house gun all i have are hunting guns what would be a good house gun
thanks jim

[LUCKYDAWG13]

thanks to all i got a good deal on a 92fs 9mm 15 +1
im working on a trade for in 870 two i just dident think that my encore or tender would
make a good house gun or my black powder guns
so thank you all
Jim

[Bullet Caster]

Don't own a shotgun; had to sell it to buy my press kit. But do own a 1911 and an Ak-47. Nothin' like rackin' a round in an AK. It has it's own distinctive sound. Besides a pistol is used only to fight your way back to your rifle, as I've been told on number of occasions. First defense is my dogs barking. BC

[ku4hx]

12 GA shotgun. Short, legal legnth, barrel with a pump action. Next after that whatever 12, 16 or 20 GA shotgun you have. Load 'em with 00 buck.

[jwmprock]

12 gauge Beretta auto, 3" chamber, magazine extension, kept loaded with one in chamber and magazine full. First shot, #7 bird shot. For the average buzzed up junkie, he's gonna want to get close to you, if he does, you can cut him in half. If he keeps his distance and pulls a gun, 1 7/8 oz of #7 shot in the face is bound to be discouraging. But if that's not enough, next shot is #4 buck, followed by several 00 buck followed by some very nasty slugs. Just the wife and I these days, I don't worry about shooting through the wall and hitting a kid, live miles out in the country, no neighbors, just don't want to do more damage to my house than necessary. The blood on the carpet is going to be bad enough without blowing through three or four walls, windows, etc. Oh and keep that junker Saturday night special of Uncle Al's. Very handy if he turns out not to be armed...... Just be careful to remove any of your DNA, put it in his paw.

[mpmarty]

"Short Black Shotgun" and "Area only Weapon?" No idea.....Guy's? Explain for us old timers.

I'm probably late with this but:

SBS=Short Barreled Shotgun
AOW=All Other Weapons ie not machine gun but regulated anyway.

[mpmarty]

OK the wife and I share a different view of what has been said here. We have a doberman in the house and if anyone is stupid enough to break in he and I will deal with it as appropriate.

However:

If the driveway alarm goes off in the middle of the night it triggers outside 300 watt lights that illuminate the entire outside of our 3600 square foot home, all four sides. The plan is that wife, Max (doberman) and I exit the house via bedroom door and she dials 911 while max and I take up position in the dark watching the house and ready to subdue/capture/kill anyone trying to leave. We hold that position until the local law arrives in half an hour or so.

[Houndog]

I guess I'm too much old school, but I keep a 1911 Combat Commander in my night stand and SWMBO keeps a model 19 in hers. There's a double barrell / double triggered 12 guage in easy reach with #4 buckshot ( MUCH shorter than a pump to handle in tight places and it can't jam) just in case the perps manage to get by the two 130 pound half Siberan Husky/ timberwolf dogs.

[supe47]

S&W 329PD. First 3 rounds shot shells filled with line wire. Will not penetrate a single layer 1/2" drywall at 6' but will tear the heck out of flesh. Those get the attention. Next 3 240 gr kt if the 1st 3 haven't accomplish their job. Witness 45 10 shot if I missed and the noise hasn't scared 'em away. The rest I have to get up for.

[nicholst55]

I'm probably late with this but:

SBS=Short Barreled Shotgun
AOW=All Other Weapons ie not machine gun but regulated anyway.

Actually, AOW is Any Other Weapon, IIRC.

[Gtek]

#4 Buck that is capable of repeating, that way there is only one story when the law shows up. Plus- several cheap, small, shiny street purchased weapons that are very carefully scrubbed laying around is not a bad idea either. Gtek

[olafhardt]

I am a confederate veteran, I haunt that big old house down by the river. I use my old navy colt and brandish my saber. The last couple that broke in here I waited till things got interesting then I jumped out and gave a rebel yell. He fell down a half a dozen times trying to run with his pants down. She just stepped out of hers and took off.

[x101airborne]

OK the wife and I share a different view of what has been said here. We have a doberman in the house and if anyone is stupid enough to break in he and I will deal with it as appropriate.

However:

If the driveway alarm goes off in the middle of the night it triggers outside 300 watt lights that illuminate the entire outside of our 3600 square foot home, all four sides. The plan is that wife, Max (doberman) and I exit the house via bedroom door and she dials 911 while max and I take up position in the dark watching the house and ready to subdue/capture/kill anyone trying to leave. We hold that position until the local law arrives in half an hour or so.

Absolutely. If YOU are on scene, YOU are in charge until you are relieved by higher.
And I applaud you for at least having a plan of egress.
Although for me, I have seen it too many times and hope to never see another man shot by me or anyone else unless it is absolutely necessary. If my family and I make it out of the house and are safe... The dang burglars can take absolutely anything they want till the cops get there. I am not going to put myself or my family in harms way to stop a theft. That is why I pay insurance. If I / we are still in the house, that is a different story. Just because they havent gotten to us yet doesnt mean they wont.

[Ziptar]

I have a nice High Standard Riot 18-7 that would do nicely as a house gun but, it will never get used for that purpose unless my home is invaded by horde of post-apocolypse mutant bikers.

Anyone unlucky enough to be in my home uninvited in the dead of the night will be confronted by me (after I've dialed 911) wielding one of the options I keep close by the bed.

A. 6 D-Cell Maglight
B. Aluminum Pee Wee T-Ball Bat that's ~22 inches long.
C. Fire Axe

That way I won't have to hand over my nice High Standard to the Police when they show up.

I had occasion to use the T-Ball Bat about 15 years ago on the top of bald head that had just started to poke through a pried open ground floor window.

I didn't give it a full swing, just a quick and firm flick of the elbow.

Judging from the expletives emitted from the bald head referenced earlier as it took off into the night, I'd say it worked pretty darn good. :)

[Reload3006]

no question a cheap very affordable 12 ga single shot. Someone breaks into my house I will be looking at them in the morning. and all you need is the cheap bird shot loads too inside house range will be just as good as a slug no man or beast will live through it.

[para45lda]

There's a perfect one in the Swapping and Selling section right now.

12 gauge 1100 with a medium length barrel and synthetic stocks. Take a look

Wes

[44 flattop]

A 1911 beside my bed. Plus a 20" Marlin Cowboy with 12 rounds of .44's. But I have no neighbors and the kids are long gone from home.

44

[wb_carpenter]

XD service with a tac light mounted on the nightstand, Sub2000 with a 33rd mag loaded with +P+ leaning against it and a shotgun in the closet(retreat point).

The idea being to grab the nightstand gun to get me and my significant other into the closet. Which gun I grab at the nightstand is based on time constraints but id bet on the pistol.


I have timed different scenarios based on whether the perp knows my house or not and I should have enough time being upstairs(spiral staircase to boot).

[rintinglen]

Four pages in and I find no one has stated the real bottom line. The best gun for home defense is the one that you are most familiar and comfortable with, so that in the gravest extreme, when you have more adrenalin in your bloodstream than blood cells, you can most effectively use it. A special sawed off 10 gauge loaded with anti-tyranosaur special ammunition may make you feel good. But the Ruger 10-22 that you have fired 10,000 times is a better choice. Too often, home defense guns get bought, shot once or twice, then loaded and tucked away, never to see the light of day again. Familiarity enhances skill, so chose the gun(s) you shoot the most.

[Ziptar]

no question a cheap very affordable 12 ga single shot. Someone breaks into my house I will be looking at them in the morning. and all you need is the cheap bird shot loads too inside house range will be just as good as a slug no man or beast will live through it.

I'll second that Reload3006.

If someone really feels the need or just has their heart set on having to have and possibly use a "House Gun" thats the way to go. Although I'd go 16 or 20 Gauge, 12 gauge is over kill (no pun intended :grin: ). A 16 or 20 is plenty enough to do the job yet large enough for panicked fingers to grasp, .410 would be too easy to fumble I think. It'll make plenty of noise. If they live through it they won't be moving very fast. If they are moving very fast it'll more than likely be away from you and towards the nearest exit. Assuming they make the exit you've at least tagged them well. Anyone that shows up at an ER in the area loaded with bird shot will automatically be on law enforcement's "short list".

Bird shot will make a mess but, shouldn't over penetrate. If you really want to make it effective, I once read about how back during the great depression people would score the outside of a bird shot shell just under the crimp with razor blade in order to get the bird shot released in one big chunk as buck shot and slugs were more expensive.

When the police arrive it'll be allot less painful to have to hand over a $40 single shot than a a piece that cost allot more even if it's temporary. I bring it up again only because in any case of a shooting even in your own home in self defense, the weapon in question is going to taken as part of any investigation even if temporarily, possibly permanently even if no charges are ultimately filed. This is something people seem to forget when discussing or envisioning home defense / invasion scenarios.


Four pages in and I find no one has stated the real bottom line. The best gun for home defense is the one that you are most familiar and comfortable with, so that in the gravest extreme, when you have more adrenalin in your bloodstream than blood cells, you can most effectively use it.

Excellent point rintinglen, That can't be stressed enough.

If someone thinks a lowly single shot breech loader doesn't fall into this category have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw, look at what Clint Smith can do with one at one minute and 45 seconds in. Even though its just 5 rounds, that should be plenty to put an end to any danger in a home invasion. Although, make sure you put your ball cap on first to deflect those ejected shells. ;-)

Not to get off on a rant and, not to condemn anyone. Actually, maybe you guys can help to better understand. For me "House Gun" just isn't a simple question, it conjures up so much more than the suitability of a given firearm so, forgive me if this is long.

When I see these kinds of threads on the internets, I often wonder. It seems to me people tend to over think or obsess about home invasions and home defense. Maybe its a side effect of too many Hollywood TV Crime Dramas? Not so much on this board but, on others and even in the state required safety course I had to take to get my CCP some people seem to focus on home invasion to the point of fantasy. In the CCP course there were 10 of us, I was the only one that had previously ever held let alone fired a firearm before. Over the course of the day all of the questions asked of the instructor from my classmates centered around home invasion / defense scenarios. "What gun is best?", Legalities and implications and the like.

My feeling is money and resources are better spent focusing on things that would better insure someone not get inside the home in the first place.

Better locks, bright and well overlapped outdoor lighting with motion sensors, a dog, even if its small as long as it yaps, and maybe an alarm system. Motion sensor lighting indoors even makes sense. If one did manage to somehow get inside, how comfortable do you think an invader is going to be as each room he enters is instantly illuminated as he goes. One can have a fairly effective alarm system without paying ADT just by stringing bells, tin cans, and /or pieces of metal across doorways and hallways.

Granted, as Abe Lincoln said it "Locks just keep honest men honest." The more difficult, noisy, and illuminated one makes for any attempts to gain unauthorized entry, the higher the chances the bad guy is going to move onto an easier target. Anybody thats seeking to get inside a home and steal some stuff are perpetrate nefarious deeds wants to do it as easily, quietly, quickly, and in the dark as they can.

Resistance, noise and light are the greatest and best weapons.

Better to get yourself a tazer or pepper spray, heck get a dozen stash them all over should someone ultimately get inside.

All of these things are relativity inexpensive and won't land you in hot water due to legal ambiguities or an over zealous LEO, DA, or prosecutor. In fact, if it came to the point of having to stand for a trial and jury, it would illustrate you did everything possible to attempt to avoid the use of force in self defense. Even if a trial or investigation didn't end in a jail sentence, having to mount and pay for any legal defense is more than most could both afford and would be a more stressful and scary experience than any home invasion ever would be.

If you did find yourself in this situation, a lowly single shot breech loader will only help. Which would you rather have the prosecutor hold up in front of a jury? An evil looking black and tactical rifle or shotgun with it's pitcanny rail festooned with laser site, nite vision scope, and flash light and maybe a pistol grip or an old wood and blued breech loader that most non gun owners would see as "Granddad's old Blunderbuss"?

Personally, I don't ever want to ever have to fire or even chamber a single round in anger inside my own home and do all I can to ensure it will take quite a bit to get to that point. In the event I ever do find myself having to defend my home and loved ones against intrusion, when the authorities arrive I want to be able to point to my firearms that are fully and legally locked, stowed, and unused.

In fact, when the police arrive in response to a home invasion, it's better that the words "gun, "firearm", "shoot", and "dead guy" never come up in today's litigious, anti-gun, and government over reaching society. Every state's "castle" laws are different, and not all are as open and simple as say Florida or Texas. Additionally, in a given political climate it may not matter. Even if the law is "on your side" having to defend yourself both legally and in the press because someone has a political agenda and is seeking to make some hay, is not something anyone would want to put themselves or the loved ones they would seek to protect through.

I guess thats why my preference has always been for the T-Ball Bat, giant heavy flashlight, and Fire Axe.

I once had a discussion with two non gun owning coworkers about the home invasion thing. It started with the same question as this thread, they wanted my opinion on what would make a good "house gun". They were perplexed by my answer of not having a house gun at all, further when I got to the point of saying "fire axe" they both got a bewildered and confused look on their faces.

I said, "Think about it, You've just broken into my home in the dead of night, your already stressed because you aren't supposed to be there, when suddenly you see 6' 4" and 275 lbs of me charging at you with a fire axe. After you've cr@pped your drawers, what are you going to? Run like hell, thats what. It's not just the threat of me and a fire axe coming at you, it's also that what is happening is so far out of left field and unexpected. Confusion, disorientation, and bewilderment make excellent self defense weapons but, can be major hindrances too. Shooting a gun indoors is LOUD, you aren't going to take the time to put on ear protection if this ever happens, that means with the first shot you are going to be deaf and probably a little disoriented yourself. Better you save that stuff for the other guy.

At least thats how I view the whole home defense thing.

[Canuck Bob]

ZIPTAR makes very good sense. I thank God that I have been blessed enough to live in a safe and decent neighborhood. Violent gun crime is almost non-existent for citizens here who are not criminals or sadly our police force. When anyone walks down our alley or in my yard the whole area lights up from almost evey house's motion lights. My home is secure and we practice home security with the kids. Daddie's an old linebacker and soldier who knows how to engage in mortal combat when motivated. Mom served in the Canadian Army and scares me sometimes.

I know that this is a personal choice but my hallway points at my elderly widow neighbors bed room. Penetration is important for me. Currently I have an old single shot Mossberg 12 gauge with magnum goose loads. I'm planning to lighten up its 20# trigger and have a set of old Rem 700 barrel sights added to a shortened barrel. I use whatever load won't pass through two frame house walls. A magnum goose load should be a real happening for a guy shot with it center mass from a few feet.

If crime was more prevalent I would have a 20 gauge Coach style SXS double (does anything handle better than a short balanced double rabbit gun) or a BPS in the Upland version 20 gauge. I want a good lawyer pointing out how I planned all along to only scare away or wound the poor dead guy.

We don't have anywhere near as much gun crime here, at least yet. We do have some home invasion but it seems to be drug dealers dealing with debt. As the local constabulary likes to say, "the residence was known to the police". Here the police will probably charge you if someone is shot then work out the details. All your guns will leave with them and you. There had better be evidence of the gun coming from a secure locked place and trigger locks on the floor and a PAL license in your pocket. After all violent criminals have a right to employment and a safe work environment.

[trench]

The only one you are likey to actually HAVE when you need it is the ccw pistol that you carry always, around the house. The smaller sizes of birdshot do NOT penetrate heavy clothing and the sternum/ribs worth a hoot, if the range from the muzzle is more than a very, very few feet, guys. At the very least, use #2 birdshot, and no, the 12 ga is NOT overpowered. Do NOT trust a single shot. I would not trust in a double barrel, myself. He can have helpers, and you CAN miss. The pattern at the typical 10ft ranges in a house, will only be 5" or less wide, so you can miss the entire man easily, if you don't aim the shotgun much as you would a rifle. There's some terrible advise in this thread.

you don't answer the door with any longarm, nor do you take it with you to mow the lawn, take out the pets or the garbage, get the mail, etc. The ccw pistol, however, can easily "ride along" on such trips. It's easily used in conjunction with a flashlight, as you use a phone, comfort a child, open a door, look under a bed, etc, too.

If you get the pistol pointed at the punk in time for him to see it, 90+ % of the time, he will just flee, (if, that is, you've been smart enough to leave him a way out). It will cost you $50,000+ to stay out of prison and not lose a lawsuit if you shoot somebody, so don't do it, if at all possible to avoid it! The longarm is many times more likely to not BE there than the pistol is likely to not suffice. If you have the 10+ seconds needed to run and get a gun, why not just run up and twist off the offender's head, hmm? You can do that in 3-4 seconds, easily.

[Canuck Bob]

No CCW pistols here Trench. Our handgun laws are very restrictive here.

You make very good points and I would do things different if crime we had the violence I see on some of the programs on cable. I remembered a site called Box of Truth were a guy tested some of this stuff and he agrees with you. Like you he surprised me with his dim view of birdshot under any circumstance but his tests were convincing. If an encounter happens in my hallway chances are buckshot won't be reaching an inside wall anyway.

[shotstring]

If the sound of pump shotgun being racked is supposed to instill shear "fear" in the hearts of intruders, then what must a shotgun wielding homeowner feel when he hears multiple pump guns being racked in answer from multiple shotgun toting intruders?

Of course, then there is the dreaded sound of a Beretta 25 jetfire's slide being racked.....

[mpmarty]

So instead of racking a slide on a shotty perhaps I should just shout "Ready on the Right".

[44magLeo]

Most gun fights last less than 2.5 shots and less than 10 feet. Most any firearm holds more rounds.
2 #4 buck backed up by slugs in the several shotguns around the house. 125 gr hollow points in the 357.
11 rounds of Winchester 44 Special 200 gr Silvertips in the Marlin lever gun with a laser sight. It's the first choise. Hangs on the rack on the bedrails. Put the dot on what you want dead and pull the trigger, repeat as nessesary.
Which ever is close to hand.
No close neighbors or kids to worry about.
What ever you use a plan is most important and practice it, as well as with the guns used.
I hunt with the 870's and the Marlin. The 357 see's a lot of shooting too.
I don't think a bad guy is gonna look to close at the plaques and trophies on the wall. But they are there.
Leo

[Artful]

no question a cheap very affordable 12 ga single shot. Someone breaks into my house I will be looking at them in the morning. and all you need is the cheap bird shot loads too inside house range will be just as good as a slug no man or beast will live through it.

Really? -

A friend of AR15.com sends this (to The Box O' Truth):
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds."

Read more: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=133958&start=100#ixzz1fm8LydyX

and

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.


and

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-315025.html


Birdshot for defense? This is from an LEO, and one of our instructors, in WY:

"One occasionally hears the suggestion that birdshot, from a shotgun, is an effective home-defense load. The argument is that is won't penetrate excessively, that it is 'effective' at close range, ad nauseam.

I'm currently involved in a murder investigation that has convinced me, beyond all doubt, that the use of birdshot as a defense load is a poor idea indeed!

Our perpetrator, in a high state of intoxication, decided to settle an old score with the victim. After informing the victim of his intentions, he armed himself with an old, Winchester M97 and charged the tube with WW, full-power, 9-pellet, 00 buckshot. Meanwhile, the victim locked himself in his auto-repair shop, and, anticipating the confrontation, also armed himselfwith, of all things, another Winchester M97, but he charged his tube with low-brass, #6 birdshot. The evidence suggests that the victim didn't know much about guns in general, shotguns in particular, and virtually nothing about shotgun ammunition. He obviously thought 'ammunition is ammunition.'

The lethal confrontation took place in the repair shop, with the two combatants separated by less than two meters.

The perpetrator opened festivities by using his shotgun to blow the lock off a locked door. It took two rounds of buckshot. The lock was demolished, and the door blown open.

There was a refrigerator just inside the door, and the victim was a few feet away, on the other side. As the perpetrator advanced, the victim fired one round at him. His aim was poor, and most of the lead shot hit (and failedto penetrate) the refrigerator door. A few struck the perpetrator in the face, destroying his right eye.

The startled perpetrator pulled his head back but immediately rolled back out from behind the refrigerator and fired a single shot. All nine pellets of 00 buckshot struck the victim in the center of his torso. The victim probably suffered a fatal injury, falling where he was hit. The perpetrator then walked over to the victim, who was laying on his back, and fired a second shot into his face from only a few inches. The victim's head was blown to pieces. When we found the body, he was, long since, DRT!

Our perpetrator then walked out the shop, got in his truck, and drove nearly one hundred miles to the small, ranching community where he lived. Only when his eye injury was pointed out to him, as well as the fact that his shirt and trousers were soaked in blood (mostly his own), did he grudgingly concede that he might need medical attention. Hours later, we arrested him at the hospital where he sought aid. He is now on trial for murder and will most likely spend the rest of his life, with only one eye, in prison.

Just another local idiot who had too much liquid courage!"

Please read http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html and
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-130218.html.

Use whatever you prefer to load your defensive shotgun, for whatever reasons, based on the advice of whatever expert you choose to listen to and accept advice from.

I am no expert, by the way.

Please note that with ANY firearm, you and your projectile(s) must accomplish two tasks- 1) placement, and 2) penetration.
You as the shooter must strike vital areas with your shot(s). The projectiles you fire must penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals.

Choose wisely- both your shotgun ammo and your experts

[migtek02]

If I kept guns at home..... I would have a shotgun loaded with 00 buck, along with a sks fully loaded and an assortment of handguns around the house so I am never more than 20 ft from a firearm.

[fatboy]

got a Judge with buck shot and bird shot mix, and a mossberg with an 18 AND 1/2" barrel loaded with 3 buck. that one works for geese or bad guys!!!

[Jim]

Benelli Super Nova in 12X3.5" magnum, 20" barrel, chamber empty, tube loaded with three rounds of 3.5" 000B.

[Shiloh]

lots to think about my first defense plan is my dogs one liks to sleep by the front door
and one in our room i like to think they will wake me up in time to arm myself or my wife

Mine too.

Had an incident last spring when the dogs went nuts about 3:00 AM one weekend morning. I saw nothing when I checked around the house in the morning. Something alerted them though.

Shiloh

[cloakndagger]

My dos centavos, in the form of a story.
A local acquaintence was victim of a home invasion, which happened while he was in the "oval office" (or the privvy if you please). He had a shotgun by his bed, and hunting rifles in his gun cabinet in his den. He had access to niether. The thugs didnt get to carry out their ill intentions thanks to alert neighbors, who came armed. Thugs fled, but lost their ride.

Lesson here,
1) a gun you cant get to, might as well not exist (thus i keep a piece of combat tupperware in the privvy now)
2) have good, alert, and armed neighbors. Dont **** where you live, maybe itll save yours one day.
3) be ready for anything.
4) have a plan. (local police took 35 mins to respond, by which point over 10 well armed neighbors with hounds had begun a search for said thugs. see #2)

[johnnybar]

i do have a pump 887 that i won from ducks unlimited last year if i can find a short barrel for
it that would work nice i know that i wont use in the field
thank you for all the info

Buck and slugs have too much energy for urban or multi-occupant conflicts. Get some HD BB loads from your favorite shop. If you can't find them due to the panic buying, get some lead BB loads, steel T's or TT's. Iknow from experience that they will knock a BIG coyote on it's *** dead 'for hit tha' ground. And even if a few pellets sneak through two layers of drywall or a hollow core door, they will not have much energy left....buckshot will, as well as the slow moving 45acp. Now, if you want to remove body parts with each pull of the trigger, go bigger!

Personally, I live in the country and keep a 45acp 1911 x2, 44mag revolver & MAK90 hi-cap handy at all times. Also keep a 22-250, and a crazy accurate Mosin M44 in the truck when running about.

Pic for reference:
5664356644

[jbc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

interesting gunblast test of birdshot for defense. He must have used the uber depleted uranium tactical bird-shot because it didn't bounce off

[aa1911]

don't use birdshot for HD, just not a good idea. Worry more about shot placement than penetrating walls. Anything that will be effective on a human torso is going to go through most walls; use #4 buck if you are worried about penetration. Shotgun is actually about the best, even most handgun rounds will penetrate more than shot from a scattergun will.

[I'll Make Mine]

Maybe I'm way, way out in left field, but I like my home defense handgun rounds better than anything I could load in a shotgun, in terms of reduced overpenetration. These are handloads in .357 Magnum, loaded hot (safe in my revolver, but top end); Hornady XTP 110 grain hollow points over a big charge of H-110. These bullets are made to expand at 800 ft/s, and the Hornady manual says they should be close to 1600 from my six inch Dan Wesson. No, penetration isn't their forte, but I guarantee anyone they hit, even if wearing a vest, will feel like he's been hit with a biggish hammer, and the muzzle flash and blast will act like a SWAT team's flash-bang grenades.

And although they probably will penetrate both sides of an interior wall, they'll penetrate the second layer as fragments with no more energy than single birdshot pellets. I've only got two speed loaders, and with a teen in the house North Carolina law won't let me keep the revolver loaded -- but if twelve of these won't fix the problem, they'll at least give me time to grab the .380 (fifteen rounds immediately available of same bullets on a .380 load -- as effective as a .380 can get) or load the Mosin Nagant (in case I'm invaded by wolves, mountain lions, or bears -- or very persistent burglars with body armor).

[Dannix]

Wow, old thread.

Anything that can reliably perform against the human terminal medium (FBI standards are a good place to start) will easily penetrate internal walls. So the focus on shot placement must be the priority, and of course missed shots can only intimidate the bad guy at best.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

[QUOTE=Dannix;1972079]Wow, old thread.

i was thinking the same thing and thanks for all the reply's
i went with a 92 FS for my wife and a 12ga SXS with 20" barrels
for me

[flounderman]

I don't know what kind of birdshot shells the people were shooting that didn't do any damage, but I skinned a west virginia buck that had number 6 shot all the way thru the chest and under the skin on the far side. a 12 ga at 12 feet will tear up a man sized target with 2s or 4s. at that close a range you won't have a pattern, just a hole. Buckshot will penetrate more but at home defense distances it isn't that neccessary. the department of correction teaches everybody recognises the sound of an 870 being racked and after that nobody wants to hear the next sound. If you can get command of the situation without shooting someone, it could save you a lot of problems. At the same time, second place in a gunfight means you lost. Any gun is better than not having one when you need it, but the shotgun would be my weapon of choice for inside the home.

[farmerjim]

357 mag about 1 foot from my right hand.