45-90 Almost There [Archive]

TXGunNut

11-05-2011, 09:41 PM

I'm missing something here but can't say for sure what it is. Rifle seems to like this load but it needs a little tweak.
Here's the recipe:
Starline cases, not resized.
Federal 215 primers*
74gr 1.5Fg KIK powder, compressed .15" w/ a .060" wad
457125 Lyman boolit cast w/ 30-1 alloy, Sized .459 and lubed w/ SPG
No crimp

Had the boolits lying around, tried them just for grins. Bad batch of primers, one in three took multiple hits, nice big dent from first strike of firing pin-could be part of the problem but I'm wondering if there could be something else.

RMulhern

11-06-2011, 12:59 AM

Missing???

Hmmmm....maybe it's paper patch!!

TXGunNut

11-06-2011, 01:25 AM

Pretty sure the chamber's a bit small for that. I do want to try that someday, just don't think this is the right rifle.

RMulhern

11-06-2011, 09:26 AM

Pretty sure the chamber's a bit small for that. I do want to try that someday, just don't think this is the right rifle.

TGN

"Pretty sure the chamber's a bit small for that."

U lost me!!!

The smaller....the better if you mean dimension-wise!!:veryconfu:shock:

Don McDowell

11-06-2011, 10:17 AM

Going to guess it's the primers, and probably need to get up to 80 grs of powder or maybe a touch more.
And sometimes a simple lube change can bring things together.

TXGunNut

11-06-2011, 10:19 AM

It's pretty tight ahead of the case mouth, little or no freebore. Thought I needed a bit of room there for paper patching.

Don McDowell

11-06-2011, 10:24 AM

TXGunNut

11-06-2011, 10:28 AM

Going to guess it's the primers, and probably need to get up to 80 grs of powder or maybe a touch more.-Don

Yes, primers are toast. Wish I didn't have 900 more of them. Have some 210Ms to try. Will see if I can get 80grs in there, should I drop back to FFg, Don?

Don McDowell

11-06-2011, 10:57 AM

You can get 80 grs in there easy.
I'ld stay with the 1.5 for now.
Got any large pistol primers?

TXGunNut

11-06-2011, 11:15 AM

OK, getting ready to give it a try. Have quite a few WW LP primers, never thought about that.

powderburnerr

11-06-2011, 01:19 PM

if your cases are fired a lot you might consider anealing them at the case mouth , might have varying neck tension as well as ignition problems .

TXGunNut

11-06-2011, 02:27 PM

I don't size or flare them any more, these have been fired 4 times, IIRC. I don't think I'm working this brass very hard. Neck tension is almost nothing, I can seat the boolits with my fingers.
Didn't realize I had a compression die insert, Don. Been using it to seat wads by hand and using the boolit to compress the powder. :coffee: Dropped it in my Lee neck expander die and it worked great! The 80gr charge is compressed .25" or so, thought it would be much more than that.
Range is a mile N of Texas Motor Speedway, think I'll dodge NASCAR fans (and raindrops?) and see how this load shoots.
Thanks, Don.

TXGunNut

11-06-2011, 11:31 PM

Only the spotting scope and stapler worked well today, then the stapler ran out of staples.[smilie=b:

TXGunNut

11-07-2011, 11:55 PM

Still had primer issues but likely because I neglected to load LP's, loaded them with 210M's like my 45-70's and 35Rem. May have accidentally loaded 20-1 boolits as well. Thinking WW's, 75-76grs KIK 1.5Fg, LP primers and work up from there if primer issues go away. Checked the new mainspring to make sure it wasn't rubbing the sideplate and lubed the lock just a tiny bit. I don't want to change too many things at once and I've got time to kick it around. 45-70 and 35 Rem projects also on hold till after the first of the year. Time to focus on hunting.:veryconfu

RMulhern

11-08-2011, 12:24 AM

No, freebore not really a good thing for paper patch, shallow lead angles are good, but the standard Shiloh( and Winchester bpcr) chamber will work well enough.
Best to get a good grease groove load first , then run off on the paper patch trail, it doesn't take very long messin with patched rounds to figure out why it went obsolete....

Don me boy

"it doesn't take very long messin with patched rounds to figure out why it went obsolete.... "

Why that's a totally sacrilegious statement!!:holysheep:killingpc[smilie=l:

Don McDowell

11-08-2011, 01:19 AM

ss40_70

11-08-2011, 03:07 AM

i almost hate to admit this ,.. but ive followed some of rmulhern 's trials and tribulations on paper patching ,.. and i agree with a bit of what don has to say on the subject ,.. but having never tried pp it interests me . and part of the interest is the effort and experimenting it takes to make it work and the rewards of it working .

a good part of my interest in bpcr lays in the work it takes to make things come together i think thats part of why i lost interest in my 40-70 ,.. it has shot everything ive tried with few exceptions unlike my 45-70 and 45-90

semtav

11-08-2011, 03:47 AM

TGN
Just a couple observations.
When you said that load seemed to work good but needs a little tweaking, you didn't mention what came before that load. Was that your first recipe or your 10th ?

Second, you may think you aren't work hardening the brass because you never resize it, but every time you shoot it you are flexing it to some point. DanT did a dissertation on this some time ago.

We can make WAGs about it, but it would help to know what all you tried before this load.

Primers
Brass length
anneal vs unannealed
resized vs as shot
OAL Cartridge length.
unsized VS sized bullets
Wad variables
Etc ETC
So many variables so little time.

But the biggest problem I see is Consistency and accurate records and data.

Start over, with the load you had and take it one step at a time with accurate records and known components.

I know you know all the above, but sometimes a little reminder helps.

Brian

RMulhern

11-08-2011, 09:48 AM

Rick maybe so, but its the truth.... Look how many hoops you danced thru to get patched loads working the way you wanted them to.. rechambering rifles, shot cases of different powders, bought dozens of moulds, tried how many different papers, and want to talk about alloys for a bit????[smilie=b::p...:groner:

Don

You watched me shoot at Alliance; went damn near 'clean' on the first few targets fired and then things went in the schitter; basically because I had leading from chamber to muzzle and the rifle wouldn't hit due east! Part of that problem was an error on my part that occurred a week prior to that match so I won't lay all the blame where it shouldn't be laid but in continued shooting and working with various alloys and GG loads...I can truthfully say that I have never shot a GG bullet....no matter the alloy or bullet design that didn't eventually cause a problem with lead buildup in the barrel! That particular incident is what prompted me into learning how/what to do to be able to shoot PP ammo and it finally all came together! I have a number of BPCR and 'all those moulds' were not for just one rifle! ALL THOSE MOULDS.....were for GG bullets in an attempt to find one that would work WITHOUT LEADING! Kinda odd....that the PP moulds don't cause this problem. Yes....it takes some work but this is all part/parcel of what makes the game interesting...and a challenge! Other than making up ones mind to learn how to shoot PP ammo....the basic problem is that most folks don't want to take the time to sit on their arses long enough to roll the patches on and to find the combinations of paper and the best cases to work with. In an attempt to enhance the 'art of shooting PP ammo' to others I have tried to impart to others interested in learning by posting most or many of my experiences on various forums because in the final analysis all that I have learned has come from others that went down this road before me. In life, whether one be cattle ranching, flying airplanes, drilling wells, design engineering, tool & die making, or shooting....one never knows how far one can go until pushing to the upper limits!!:bigsmyl2::shock:

Lead pot

11-08-2011, 11:09 AM

While the subject of barrel leading was mentioned :)
Ray Newman posted a very good link on the phpbb forum on this subject.
It is mostly for the revolver but a lot of it holds for the rifle too.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

powderburnerr

11-08-2011, 11:21 AM

tx gun semtev makes some good points .

If you are still having ignition problems with the different primers , I would remove the breechblock , take out the firing pin , ck to see it isnt broken and clean and lube the block.one more thing to check before beating up yourself is to check for a lead smear in the barrel , they happen especially with the harder alloys,

Lead pot

11-08-2011, 11:57 AM

I would use caution using pistol primers in the sharps.
I been using a lot of pistol primers in my .45-2.4 and I been getting a line grooved from the primer to the edge to the rim. first I thought the firing pin was dragging and I kept cleaning the pin and changing the spring and the transfer bar spring, but a closer look at the breach block face I can see that the firing pin has pushed out a burr from traveling to the end of the Chanel.
If you use a pistol primer cut a paper wad under the primer dont just seat a primer with out it.

Don McDowell

11-08-2011, 05:56 PM

Rick, I well remember spotting for you at Alliance, and yes that bullet created a leadmine in your barrel, but that's just the nature of that bullet, almost everybody that shoots it is well versed in leadmining...
But when you start doing simple things like loading a 45-70 with 70 grs of 2f and a postell seated to the driving band, the greasegroove thing is simple.
You are exactly right, paper patching takes an inordinate amount of time to get everything down and working as it should.
But you take something as simple as the postell or governement bullet in a 45xxx case fill the case to where the powder compresses about 1/8 inch with a .030 fiber wad and one of those bullets sized to .458/9 and shooting decent groups to the 1000 yd mark isn't out of the question provided the sights and all are up to the task.

Lead pot

11-08-2011, 07:00 PM

Rick, bullets sized to .458/9 and shooting decent groups to the 1000 yd mark isn't out of the question provided the sights and all are up to the task.

Do you mean the front sight wont fall off:lol::lol::lol:

Don McDowell

11-08-2011, 08:09 PM

Well that front sight floppin like a wet dishrag in the wind does add another dynamic.... lol

Johnk454

11-08-2011, 08:56 PM

Tx, there's lots of excellent advice on this thread.

Trapdoors are notoriously inaccurate when they have a broken two-piece firing pin due to inconsistant ignition, even when all cartridges fire. Definitely worth checking. Bad primers can cause the same effect, obviously.

In my 45-90 Shiloh, (a sample of one) the groups didn't really shrink until I hit on 82grs of 1.5 Swiss beneath a .459" Postell in annealed, neck-sized Starline brass lightly kissed with a Lyman taper crimp. My batch of Starline 45-90 brass was hard as woodpecker lips.

My rifle DID NOT like loose bullets, FWIW.

TXGunNut

11-08-2011, 10:30 PM

Lots of good ideas here, thanks. This is Load 6 or the 8th recipe if you count the minor variations.
You're right, semtav, I've been loading 30 yrs but BPCR's are a new and humbling experience. Been focused on rifles since I quit the PPC game about 11 yrs ago. Big mistake I made Sunday was changing too many variables so I'm going back to Load 6 and will take baby steps from here. I really like Don's ideas, I just need to approach them a little slower. I just checked the Sunday boolits (Load 6A) and they were a commercial 20-1 alloy, I only had a few of each alloy and now I think I'll focus on 30-1 or softer. My 45-70 Guide Gun seems to like 50/50 clip-on/stick-on WW's so may feed that to it's big brother as well. I've only used 20-1 and 30-1 alloys in this rifle, powered by Swiss FFg loads with very little (.030") compression under .060 wads. Load 6 had a 74gr KIK 1.5Fg load (.125 compression) and load 6A was 80gr 1.5Fg (.25 compression). All loads until Sunday were with Federal 215 primers, Sunday was 210M. Rifle doesn't seem to like the Lyman 457193 but I would like to develop a hunting load around it. Since it seems to like the 457125 I want to figure it out and then apply what I've learned to the 457193. Rifle is a diversion only, no serious plans of shooting BPCR matches or hunting with it but am planning on at least trying both.
I cleaned and lubed the breechblock a few weeks ago, all looks good in there but I don't have the factory dimensions for the firing pin. I learned in my PPC days that a light hammer strike will result in inconsistent velocities. Hammer drop sounds a bit more energetic after yesterday's lock lube and tweak job.
Wish ya'll would quit talking about leading, that's a problem I've avoided for the most part. ;-) Been lurking on the PP page and it's something I feel is part of learning about BPCR's but I have too many projects half-finished now, Rick.
Thanks again, guys. I'm taking notes, making plans. This weekend I will be re-sighting in my other hunting rifles for j-bullets :cry: and helping out with the hunters who missed last weekend when deer season opened in TX.
I'll be off hunting first and last weeks of next month and I've simply run out of time for coming up with a load to use in the big Sharps to harvest a deer or hog ethically.

otterdriver

11-08-2011, 10:46 PM

Tex,
What is your favorite load for the Hogs??
Chris

TXGunNut

11-08-2011, 11:20 PM

Probably shouldn't say but at the moment it's a 45-70 with 3Xgrs of IMR4198 under a RP 405 JSP, stuffed into a RP case with a Federal 210M to get the party started. Yes, it's a bit warmer than most manuals will publish but I worked up to it and my Guide Gun handles it quite well and shoots it as well as the mild 12-1300fps loads. Just couldn't get it to group until it got well into "warm" territory.
I'm working on a 457193 load over about 10% less of the same powder but didn't get all the details worked out in time for hunting season. I think the alloy will be stick-on WW's or something just a tiny bit harder or softer. Looking hard @ the Ranch Dog moulds. I've been toying with the 457122 Gould boolit and RL7 but haven't been able to find the magic load for either yet.
There is some very interesting reading on this subject on the favorite loads page, have gotten some good ideas there.

otterdriver

11-09-2011, 12:02 AM

Sounds like a grand time! I look forward someday to getting down there for some of the action!! Chris

Sixgun Symphony

11-09-2011, 05:27 PM

Is that a 500gr weight bullet?

TXGunNut

11-09-2011, 09:15 PM

Is that a 500gr weight bullet? -Sixgun Symphony

Sorry, otterdriver got me talking about my favorite rifle & game and we hi-jacked the thread. :bigsmyl2: The 45-90 load that's giving me fits in my Sharps is a 457125 Lyman that drops around 517-519 depending on the alloy. The boolits I'm trying to make work in my 45-70 Guide Gun are the Lyman 457193 (405gr) and the 457122 Lyman (Gould) dropping about a 330gr hollowpoint. Dunno why something that big has a hollowpoint, I just wanted to find out what all the fuss was about.:cbpour:

Sixgun Symphony

11-09-2011, 09:22 PM

Thanks, I had purchased some 500gr cast bullets for my 1886 Winchester in .45-90 and was hoping it would work. I will have to take them back to the shop and exchange them for lighter bullets.

TXGunNut

11-09-2011, 09:49 PM

Been following that thread, keep us posted.

otterdriver

11-10-2011, 03:02 PM

Hey TX,
How do you like that Gould Express hollow point as a hunting boolit? I have one coming to me on order, and can hardly wait to try it out. Have you been able to retrieve one fired @ the hogs?
Just curious how well it did (or didn't) expand... otterdriver

Sixgun Symphony

11-10-2011, 03:05 PM

I will be producing some videos on my progress and post them here with my youtube.com channel.

http://youtu.be/ipbb5eFuWvU

TXGunNut

11-10-2011, 11:37 PM

Sorry, otterdriver. I was wanting to take it hunting this year but ran out of load development time. I can tell you that mine seems to like a little bit hotter pour temp than my other Lyman moulds, I also learned to preheat the pin that makes the cavity by dipping it in the furnace until lead didn't stick to it. It also likes to run just a little faster than my other Lymans but that may be because manipulating the pin gives me more to do. After reading Chil Wills' post tonight on Sixgun Symphony's thread I'm beginning to think the Gould isn't well suited to the Sharps, will concentrate on loading it for the Guide Gun.
Looking forward to the videos, Sixgun Symphony. How 'bout a pic over on your thread to tide us over? An 1886 has been on my wish list for awhile.

Sixgun Symphony

11-11-2011, 02:34 PM

Looking forward to the videos, Sixgun Symphony. How 'bout a pic over on your thread to tide us over? An 1886 has been on my wish list for awhile.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/19th%20Century%20Firearms/IMG_0695.jpg
1886 Winchester & 1873 Winchester. The 1873 is an Italian replica.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/19th%20Century%20Firearms/IMG_0718.jpg
A close up on the 1886 Winchester rifle.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/19th%20Century%20Firearms/IMG_0730.jpg
A close up of the 1873 Winchester clone. It's blurry, but you might be able to read .44 WCF.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/19th%20Century%20Firearms/IMG_0696.jpg
Here they are again, but with a Zouave .58 cal rifled musket, a 20ga Howdah pistol, and a custom Bowie.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/Sixgun_Symphony44-40/19th%20Century%20Firearms/IMG_0724.jpg
Another photo of my Howdah pistol.

bigted

11-11-2011, 02:54 PM

otterdriver

11-11-2011, 06:35 PM

TX,
I should have clarified, the Gould will probably see most of its use as fodder for a H&R Trapdoor Springfield Officers model. Quite possibly with a H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic. Chris

TXGunNut

11-12-2011, 12:53 AM

Bigted; I'm quite sure another pin could be made with a shortened, flat point to form a FP boolit but the RD or RCBS moulds would make more sense, less fuss. The Gould has a rich history and I'm all about history. At some point, however, practicality will take over. I'm not convinced that a 45 cal 330-350gr boolit @ 1300 fps really needs a HP.
Otterdriver; the trapdoor is an adventure I have yet to embark upon. It's the missing link between my Hawken and my Sharps but for the time being I'll be forced to live vicariously if you would be so kind as to post your findings. I think a little research around here may reveal some good advice. I wish I could help.
Nice pics, Sixgun Symphony. Beautiful weapons. I hope to live long enough to study and enjoy weapons like the ones in your collection. Nicely done, my friend!

otterdriver

11-12-2011, 11:40 AM

TX,
Sorry we are keeping you so busy answering all these questions! One more, if you don't mind, I have often wondered how the feral hogs compare in flavour to domestics. Seems like there wouldn't be too much difference to me. Sure wish I could get down there for the hunt! Chris

TXGunNut

11-13-2011, 12:52 AM

Not a problem, my friend. If I can't be shooting or hunting hogs I love talking about either, preferably both.
I've only killed one hog that was inedible but I tried. :-( I like spicy sausage but that big old boar (350 +/-) was just a little too rank. A 100 pounder (or two;)) is ideal table fare but in my experience up to about 250 makes good sausage. May be a bit tough for anything else. Last hog I killed was a fair bit over 200 lbs and smelled better than the domestic pork I bought to blend for fat content, just too tough for broiling or roasting. I've been lucky, the ones that went to the taxidermist also went to the freezer. Best of both worlds.
Hogs are omnivorous, they'll eat anything from the choicest vegetables in your garden to the rankest carrion lying beside the road. Their diet affects the flavor of their meat. When you open it up, quite possibly before, you'll know. Trust me.
Back on topic, all this load development trigger time paid some nice dividends today. :smile: Re-sighted in my hunting rifles for j-bullets :-( and had no problems shooting tiny groups. First two rounds from my backup 30-06 were within .5" (cased it!), 336 in 35 Rem was almost as good and even the T/C Contender pistol in 35 Rem turned in it's 2nd ever MOA group. Primary 30-06 likes a heavier bullet than I do and the Guide Gun likes things a bit slower but both did a bit above average today.
Just wish I was going hunting with a big cast boolit. :-(

otterdriver

11-13-2011, 07:32 PM

TX,
Thank you for the feedback. Wild hogs haven't gotten this far North yet to my knowledge, so I will also have to live vicariously thru you!! It must be quite an adrenaline rush to hunt them, knowing they might turn the tables, and come after you at any time. The guide gun seems like quite the weapon to pack the "thump", to despatch of them effectively. Enjoy it all TX ! I envy you. Glad to hear you have all your equipment dialed in sufficiently. Chris

TXGunNut

11-14-2011, 12:49 AM

Hogs are good game but bad for the farmers, ranchers, and game habitat hereabouts and anywhere they have shown up. Yes, it's a rush to hunt game that "runs both ways" but quite frankly we'd be better off without them. OTOH I'd rather put one hog than two deer in my freezer; less work and better meat.
Come on down to TX, otterdriver. If you'll let me know what your needs and expectations are I can introduce you to a guide or maybe a landowner. As long as you can put a big chunk of lead where it counts (when it counts) you'll be fine.