neck size question

[XWrench3]

i am having trouble understanding something. in the Lee reloading book, it says that the neck should be .001" smaller than the bullet (boolit). yet, the expander on my 30-30 sizing die is .003" smaller. it measures .305", for a .308" bullet. now, throw in the fact that my marlin needs a .310" boolit, it really gets ugly. what i end up with, is a noticeable swelling of the case neck, that is not always concentric. so, looking for a cure, i researched, and found that an expander for a Lee 7.62x54R (using a .311" bullet) will fit, and is larger than the one used in my 30-30 dies. i ordered one up, and got it today. just out of curiosity, i measured it before installing it. what i found is that it measures .307"! so, i removed the original expander, and found it to be .305". so is the book correct? am i reading it wrong, meaning should it be that .001 mean .001" per side? i am unfortunately aware, that Lee Precision needs to replace ALL of its measuring equipment, because EVERYTHING they make comes through undersized. but i NEED to know if i need to hire a local machine shop to make me a new pin that measures the correct size, or if i am misunderstanding this information. by the way, after installing the larger expander, i sized a case, and seated a jacketed bullet. it has very adequet neck tension for a standard bullet, even without crimping. i am thinking that they are just purposly making undersized parts, and sending them out.

[geargnasher]

Your dies are made for jacketed boolits. My Lee .30-30 EZ-Expander stem measured .307" at the largest, and with most brass the necks sprung back to at least .306" if not more. .308" J-words then had about .002" neck tension, more than enough.

You're trying to use the dies for something they were not intended to do, and you must think outside the box here. You can size with the regular die and then expand the necks to .310" with a Lymand ."31" M-die (NOT the 30, that's for .308 bullets), but that overworks the brass. You could go with expensive dies from Redding or Sinclair and get neck-size bushings for them, but unless your brass is perfectly uniform in the necks this will leave neck tension a bit erratic.

My solution is to do one of two thing, I have both and use one for one gun and another for the other: First, get the Lee Collet Sizing Die. It's adjustable so you can swage the neck to any size you want once you get it set up. You don't have to squash the neck completely down against the mandrel, in other words. This only works on fireformed brass, so there is something else you should do also: Hone the neck portion of your sizing die until it sizes the ID of typical-thickness, fired brass to about .308" or so, and replace the expander with an EZ-expander from 303 British. I have purchased three sets of 303 RGB dies (usually when on sale) merely so I can rob the expander out of them. It works in .30-30 (very carefully set up, you need to set it pretty much against the case web or it will bind the neck), and .30-'06 (set about 1/8" below the top of the jamb nut). The 303 expander is about .3105" and leaves the brass with about 1.5 thousandths total neck tension on .311" cast boolits. You really have to hone the die, though, or you'll be overworking your brass quite severely. This enlarged setup is great for getting any brass, new, range pickup, once fired from your gun, etc. sized correctly for the .311" boolits, and you'll have to full-length size your brass every few firings anyway when using the collet die, since it doesn't set the shoulder back any.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Suggest a simple solution; Use a Lyman .31 M die after NSing for .311 cast bullets in .30 cal cartridges.

Larry Gibson

[Sonnypie]

Expanding on the above posts...

Lyman M 31L die for .303 British (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/rifle-die-details.php?brand=3&cartridge=36&die=76)

Instructions (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/pdf/dieInstructions.pdf)

I'm pleasantly surprised that it is available through Lyman.
Since I'm becoming a Cast Boolit affectionatoad, I believe I had better grab one while I can.

If I had a metal turning lathe, I would make plugs for some of the die bodies I have. Durn it!

[Sonnypie]

Gear, and/or Larry,

What about if you anneal the necks?
I have some never fired, up to multiple fired old brass, (FA34) that was annealed at the factory.
Of course, after tumbling/polishishing it no longer shows the color change it did.
(This is stuff I reworked last spring to replace the Mercuric primers in.)

(Basically, I'm looking at ways to get the maximum life out of the brass. I did some annealing of my mixed range brass yesterday for a try.)

[DLCTEX]

Rather than buy multiple d Lee dies to rob the expander I would just order the expander from Lee @$3 ea. + $4 shipping and handling

[Larry Gibson]

Sonnypie

What about if you anneal the necks?
I have some never fired, up to multiple fired old brass, (FA34) that was annealed at the factory.
Of course, after tumbling/polishishing it no longer shows the color change it did.
(This is stuff I reworked last spring to replace the Mercuric primers in.

I use the .31 cal before and after the necks are annealed. Works fine either way.

(Basically, I'm looking at ways to get the maximum life out of the brass. I did some annealing of my mixed range brass yesterday for a try.)

Two basic ways to minimally NS the case necks and decrease the work hardening of over sizing.

1st is cartridge specific; get a Lee collet die and adjust the die depth in the press so the necks are sized to .001 -.002 under bullet diameter.

Second is to get a redding Bushing die so that sizing the necks to .001 - .002" under bullet diamter can be done with bushings of various sizes. I've slightly shortened a .308W bushing die so other short cartridges can be NS'd with the appropriate bushing (.22-250, 243, .257 Rob, 6.5-308, 6.5x55, 7x57, 30-30, .300 Sav, and .308W). I've also slightly shortened a '06 bushing die so I can size 25-06, 6.5-'06, 270 Win, 280 Rem, '06, .303 Brit, 7.65 Argie, 7.7 Jap and 338-06 to name a few. I also have shortened a .284 Win bushing die to NS 7.62x54R and a couple other cartridges. As you can see with one or two die bodies and the appropriate range of bushings it can be a very versitlie method.

Case life is greatly enhances if not annealing and accuracy is also enhanced by sizing the necks just enough to hold the bullets. I've given up trying to track "times fired" with cases NS'd as such for cast bullet loads.....as it's a useless waste of time.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

rcbs offers different ball sizes for their sizers.
i discovered this long ago when loading x39's with jaxketed.

[XWrench3]

so about this "m" die. do these size the neck down before opening it up? or do i need to run it through a normal sizer first? also, these will be used in a marlin 30-30 lever gun. i thought they were supposed to be full length sized every time they are loaded.

[robroy]

Xwrench: Full length sizing every time in a lever gun is a good general procedure for most reloaders. Having said that, A given gun may or may not want that from it's fodder. Throw cast into the mix and that general rule must move over because the rule of one gun shooting a particular loading trumps all. Trite but true: Let professor gun tell you what he wants.
I've been wondering about overworking brass and correct neck tension. Work hardened necks even of the "correct" size won't do the job I think. What about too soft because they've been annealed? I believe the answer can be found by giving it a shot:lol: and seeing what the gun wants

So thats my opinion and it, along with $10.00, might get you change from a fancy coffee vendor after a cup of adulterated brew that barely tastes like coffee anymore.

[USSR]

You could go with expensive dies from Redding or Sinclair and get neck-size bushings for them, but unless your brass is perfectly uniform in the necks this will leave neck tension a bit erratic.

Not really. People seem to think that brass needs to be neck turned to use bushing dies, perhaps because benchrest shooters do that and use bushing dies. However, it is not the case. I have used bushing dies for about 10 years and have shot in 1,000 yard F Class competition for 7 years, all without having perfectly uniform necks. If there is a problem with neck tension, surely it would show at 1,000 yards, but it has not.

Don

[zomby woof]

so about this "m" die. do these size the neck down before opening it up? or do i need to run it through a normal sizer first?

Size first.

[geargnasher]

Not really. People seem to think that brass needs to be neck turned to use bushing dies, perhaps because benchrest shooters do that and use bushing dies. However, it is not the case. I have used bushing dies for about 10 years and have shot in 1,000 yard F Class competition for 7 years, all without having perfectly uniform necks. If there is a problem with neck tension, surely it would show at 1,000 yards, but it has not.

Don

And I'll bet a shiny nickel you aren't using cheap factory brass or military machine gun brass in competition, either. I've seen a pretty large spread among typical factory stuff, like most Winchester .30-'06 runs about .011-13" in the necks, Federal around .013-15", and lots of variances in typical LC brass where one side is .009" and the other .012". If you buy just one bushing to work with one type of brass, it will give different tensions on a different brand or lot. Big spread there between brands/lots that I've measured. Of course a person could get two different bushings to roughly cover the gamut, and if brass is sorted and preserved in lots, consistency within the lot matters more than exact tension. I can't afford a whole fleet of bushings to use with my brass (which is mostly scrounged anyway, again because I can't afford new brass all the time), so my solution is to use the Lee Collet die where it's offered, that way I can adjust tension infinitely as brass/boolit/gun dictates. Just my solution, as you point out there are many ways to skin this cat.

Gear

[USSR]

And I'll bet a shiny nickel you aren't using cheap factory brass or military machine gun brass in competition, either.

Of course, that would be foolish, wouldn't it. For competition, I use Lapua exclusively. However, I use the very same die for all my other brass which includes LC and other military brass.


If you buy just one bushing to work with one type of brass, it will give different tensions on a different brand or lot. Big spread there between brands/lots that I've measured. Of course a person could get two different bushings to roughly cover the gamut,

For .30 caliber, I have .332", .334", .336", and .338". I don't believe I have ever used the .332" bushing.


...my solution is to use the Lee Collet die where it's offered, that way I can adjust tension infinitely as brass/boolit/gun dictates.

Gear, how do you adjust the neck tension with the collet die? My understanding is that you would need various size mandrels for that to happen since the mandrel fits inside of the neck and defines the finished neck ID.

Don

[geargnasher]

Scotch tape. Not necessary to crush the neck against the mandrel at all, I just use tape as a centering guide. The shoulder is pretty much supported by the collet anyway, and will size the neck just fine with the mandrel out.

It also helps to use a real, locking nut (I used RCBS) and not the Lee nut since the adjustments are coarse and a bit touchy.

Gear

[leadman]

Lyman will sell you just the "plug" for the M dies. IIRC they are $4 or $5 each.

[turbo1889]

I still don't understand why Lee doesn't make collet neck sizer dies that are caliber not case specific (7mm, 30-cal, 8mm, 338-cal, etc . . . ) so that any case can be used so long as it matches the caliber size and then a series of mandrels sized and marked in 0.001" increments that are just short stubby mandrels without a de-priming pin.

You would run the brass through a universal de-priming die first and then use the “universal mandrel/collet neck size die”. You would simply adjust the die for your case length and then put the correct size mandrel in it and go. The result would be a die that neck sized to the correct internal neck diameter (since the mandrel controls the internal neck diameter compared to a bushing type neck size die that controls the outer neck diameter) with the absolute minimum working of the brass possible and get every case with the same internal neck diameter and same neck tension even if the some of the necks were slightly thicker then the others.

In fact, since Lee’s patent for the mandrel/collet neck sizing die is now over 20 years old and is expired anyone could make such a die if they were tooled up for it. I wonder if Redding or Foster would be interested it kind of seems like something that would be in their kind of market.

[Sonnypie]

Thank You, Larry.
I'll digest that important information and apply it as I can.

Ah, the relentless pursuit of the 5 shot, one hole group. :D

Thanks again!

[geargnasher]

Turbo, a fine idea, but I would suspect that the bushing die makers are quite happy collecting $25-30 a pop for the various bushings that they are already tooled up to make. After all, their market is the reloader who is going to be using uniform brass to begin with.

Gear

[runfiverun]

thats the deal with getting a tight necked target gun.
it is so you can turn the necks and then use one size bushing.
if you turn all your necks so they are .009 thick and size with the appropriate bushing for .001 neck pull.
all makes of brass will have the same case neck tension and no variation in neck thickness
[it however will still be in the body of the brass case]

an m-die is just a mandrel that opens the inside of the neck and pushes all the variance to the outside of the case which in our hunting rifles don't matter as the neck area of the chamber is oversized anyways.
it however does help in seating the boolit by not squeezing it down [once it's in the case] or smearing lead from the sides while going in the case.

i have often wondered if this is where the oversized cast boolit story has come from, is from the brass's neck tension squeezing the boolit down a thou or so.
and also the harder alloy is needed theory to resist this also.

[XWrench3]

turbo, the 30-30 is one of the few (actually, it is the only one i KNOW) that has a thinner wall surface that normal run of the mill brass cases. i have never measured brass thickness, mostly because i do not have the proper tool, but the way i found out was by trying to use my 300 win mag neck sizer die on a 30-30 case. of course, after i looked at the 2 side by side, i could see the difference. i am sure there are other calibers that have brass as thin as the old 30-30. i talked to lee about this, and they are sending me another expander that they think will be the right size, free of charge. i hope this one works. if it does not, i think i just might get a bushing die, and a few bushings. i hate to spend a bunch of money on this, but letting the bullet size the case makes no sense whatsoever. i am going to slide a few washers under the lock ring of my existing sizer, and mark a couple of cases with a felt pen. to see if i can adjust them that way to only size the neck. the case has enough taper to it that i think that will work. the neck is long, so even if i do not size the entire length of the neck, it should not be an issue.

[popper]

geargnasher - So how do you hone out the neck dia of the Lee F/L die? I want to shoot .311 CB. I can N/S for proper neck tension on fired cases, but need to set back the shoulder with the F/L sizer. I don't have a lathe, but I could slot a brass rod and build up to the proper dia with emery paper, use a slow electric drill.

[XWrench3]

the one thing that has always bothered me about cutting the necks to a uniform thickness was if a thinner wall would lessen the tension. if the total was only 1 or 2 thou, it would not be much of an issue, but if the thinnest spot required something like 4,5,or6 thousandths, then it might be. unfortunately, the only way i can even try to measure thickness would be with the tip of a set of calipers. and i can not imagine that would be very accurate. i do not own a propper ball micrometer. so i am not going to "guestimate" what the thickness really is. i am going to hunt with my brother in a few days, and he is a machinist, i will e-mail him and see if he has a set. at least then i would have an idea of what mine really are.

[geargnasher]

geargnasher - So how do you hone out the neck dia of the Lee F/L die? I want to shoot .311 CB. I can N/S for proper neck tension on fired cases, but need to set back the shoulder with the F/L sizer. I don't have a lathe, but I could slot a brass rod and build up to the proper dia with emery paper, use a slow electric drill.

I use a drill bit wrapped with emery cloth and a drill press set on about 1200 rpm. I keep the grit fresh with coarse Clover compound, it takes a lot more effort than you might think. Works well, though.

Gear

[Doghearty]

What if anything would be wrong with using the bushing on a .303 Brit die to expand the neck on a .30-30 case to accept a .311 cast bullet?