Longest Ethical Shot Taken With Cast Bullet Revolver

[Judan_454]

I will but hunting this year with a 454 casull Taurus scoped revolver,I will be using a 300 grain Lee cast bullet. I can consistly hit a field pistol ram at a 100 meters but in the field I going to limt myself to 75 meters. I would be interested with your experiences at long range hunting with a cast bullet revolver.

[45 2.1]

Ethics are knowing that you can cleanly kill (and recover) the game you shoot at with the presented shot you have. Shooting a none expanding boolit pretty well presumes that you take a central nervous system or a bone shot. Reliable expanding boolits allow some other options. A pound coffee can is a respectable allways hit target at your maximum range and that presumes your boolit has enough energy that is transferable to the animal there. It makes a difference on your skill level and what you choose to shoot....................

[44man]

I have shot many deer off hand to just over 100 yards with the .44 and .45 Colt. I hold better on deer then I do a target but we have (Whitworth and I) been able to hold 6" off hand at 100 with practice. My last deer with the .44 last season was 98 yards. I had 5 shots at the start, killed 3 deer and had 2 shots left.
I don't remember the .475 but maybe around 60 yards.
I prefer close shots, 20 yards is better. Gun season here changes things though.
What we do is put little plastic bottles of water out all around, get in the tree stand and shoot at them. We have no rest.
We use red dots or open sights. I would never hit a deer with a scope unless I had a rest. They are too dark in the AM and PM and the seen wiggles will make you miss.
I hit pop cans at 200 yards from a rest but I will not shoot at deer that far. You need to know the exact distance and boolit drop.
The fact is, it is your ability that will determine what you have comfort with. Deer are AWFUL small looking at 100 yards.
Revolver accuracy is first and most of ours will do 1-1/4" or less at 100 yards. Accuracy will shorten your distance a whole bunch. Don't fool with long range game if your gun can't do it.
This is my new .500 JRH at 100 yards. I have since put an Ultra Dot on it.

[btroj]

Depends so much upon the ability of the shooter. A 25 yards hooter with a 100 yard fun is still only a 25 yard shooter.

I prefer inside 25 yards for a revolver, 50 is my max. I just don't put in the time with a revolver at longer distances to know I can make the shot properly.

I refuse to take a shot I dont KNOW I can make. That, to me, is ethics. Wounded deer are not acceptable to me.

[Harter66]

I can only repeat what's been said above.

For me those comments go for all the critters from goffers/Pdogs all the way to elk/moose.

Which boolit? What game? RN,RNFP,SWC,WLN,Kieth,HP?

[44man]

Ethics are knowing that you can cleanly kill (and recover) the game you shoot at with the presented shot you have. Shooting a none expanding boolit pretty well presumes that you take a central nervous system or a bone shot. Reliable expanding boolits allow some other options. A pound coffee can is a respectable allways hit target at your maximum range and that presumes your boolit has enough energy that is transferable to the animal there. It makes a difference on your skill level and what you choose to shoot....................
Ethics first and I have to agree 100%.
However keep the hard boolit, WLN or WFN at say, 1200 to 1400 fps and it is wonderful. You need no bone or CNS hits. Slower or faster needs expansion. Some fast expanding bullets are WORSE and you can lose deer. Many will not make two holes and stop inside. The .240 gr XTP in the .44 is poor but the 300 gr is good. The 240 killed OK but there were no blood trails with the 3 I shot with it and I have all 3 bullets.
Now this is a hard cast at 1329 fps. No bone, no CNS, lungs and heart. Deer shot at near 60 yards.

[sqlbullet]

Handguns have the advantage in ethics, IMHO, of keeping the question limited to the shooters ability. I feel pretty certain I could consistently hit the kill zone on a deer with my P16-40 10mm with my pet 205 gr RFN load at 1300 fps out to 50 years. I have never tried any shots further than that.

The range of rifles introduce additional variables beyond the shooters control. The hunter may deliver the projectile exactly to the aim point at 600 or 800 yards every time. But, with a one second flight time, the kill zone may not be at the aim point anymore then the bullet gets there.

[Dale53]

I had many years of competitive pistol and rifle experience behind me before I shot my first deer. Using targets and a good field position, I was sure to 125 yards (kill zone EVERY time). My hunting handguns will stay on a playing card at 100 yards. My intent was to limit my shots on deer to a maximum of 100 yards. My longest shots on deer actually have turned out to be 85 yards and 75 yards.

However, I believe that the wrong question has been asked. It should not be about "how far" but about "how close" I can get.

I have practiced during the off season sneaking up on deer. My closest shot was 10 yards. THAT is what I call a "bragging shot"...

FWIW
Dale53

[Jack Stanley]

My longest shot was in reality an "oops" because if I had know how far the deer actually was I would not have shot . Like Dale53 , compitition shooting got me through that , the shot was true and the only place the deer went was down . What I learned from that was , put up range stakes or know the distance better and wear ear plugs when you touch off a full case of 2400 .

I've used cast hoolow points ( Lyman 429244 if ya need to know ) on the deer I've taken . I do think at the woods ranges I shoot my LBT solids would do as well . After all the idea is put the brown on the ground and I think both will wreck whatever is between the layers of brown .

Jack

[x101airborne]

I have taken some under 100 yard shots on hogs with pistols. Mainly 45 colt and 44 mag, but some with 357 mags and even the little 38 spl and two with the 22 lr. Of course the 22 shots were mostly under 10 yards and on small pigs. The only reason I used it was it was what I had and we dont EVER pass up on even the remote chance to kill a pig. The 38 was used at around 25 yards or under. 357's have been shot out to around 50 yards. Since you are going to use a 454, I say how ever far you can shoot. I say it is up to your skill level. As far as my skill, I am pretty comfortable to 100 and under nice or favorable conditions, would TRY a 150.

[fredj338]

On large game, I limit myself to 100yds or less from a rest. On varmints, like jackrabbits, as far as I can get a hit. Something about smacking a jackrabbit @ 150yds+ w/ a big bore revolver that is just terminally satisfying.

[44man]

Revolver hunters are different. It is a gun in the hand. Single shot shooters with high power scopes are just short rifle hunters, guns more accurate then many rifles, needing a rest. Classed as a HANDGUN but shot different. Rifle calibers with no connection at all.
Dale says it best, Get CLOSE, that is hunting not just shooting. I love a deer at 10 yards no matter how good I can shoot out there.
I brag more about a deer right in front of me then the long range shot, it was just a shot. It is why I sold my rifles but just kept my 6.5 Swede that I built. I no longer hunt with it.
I shot chucks well over 600 yards with rifles but the ones I shot close with a cap and ball revolver were better. I killed chucks to 100 yards with a .44 Flat top. A chuck shot at 50 yards with a flintlock was better and more fun.
Hunting and shooting are two different things. Anyone can shoot a deer from a house over a food plot but can you track a deer in the snow and shoot it with a revolver?
The best hunter is the archer at spot and stalk.

[45 2.1]

Ethics first and I have to agree 100%.
However keep the hard boolit, WLN or WFN at say, 1200 to 1400 fps and it is wonderful. You need no bone or CNS hits. Slower or faster needs expansion. Some fast expanding bullets are WORSE and you can lose deer. Many will not make two holes and stop inside. The .240 gr XTP in the .44 is poor but the 300 gr is good. The 240 killed OK but there were no blood trails with the 3 I shot with it and I have all 3 bullets.
Now this is a hard cast at 1329 fps. No bone, no CNS, lungs and heart. Deer shot at near 60 yards.

Long before I knew you I gave up on hard solids. I listened to you when I knew I should not and tried it your way again. The definition of insanity is trying something the same way again and expecting different results. Those results were shooting a big fat doe at 50 yds with a full 44 mag solid RF (just like you've just told) and having her run off. She went 3/8 of a mile............ lost her because the ground wasn't suitable to trail and no blood was there. Found her when it warmed up from the smell a couple of days later. Results of an autopsy were two thru and thru shoots that destroyed the heart was a lost deer. Fat pluged those holes up allowing no blood to track with. No solids for me ever again for deer unless I get a shoulder shot........... and I don't ruin meat that way.

[dverna]

Really good answers gentlemen.

It is not just the arrow - the Indian is important too.

I fear too many rifle shooters take shots at ranges at which they are not capable of making consistent kill shots. After all, why have the latest Whiz-Band Magnum if you limit yourself to 250 yards??

[Dale53]

All of my deer have been taken with Keith solids in .44 magnum. The only deer I lost was shot with the latest "whiz-bang" 180gr expanding bullet at high velocity. I shot him too far back (twice) but saw the bullets impact area. There was NO blood trail (apparently the bullets did not fully penetrate). If I had used solids I am almost certain I would have had a good blood trail (I'm a decent trailer) and would not have lost that deer.

There is nothing wrong with a hollow point bullet IF there is enough mass to fully penetrate. A good, wide meplat, solid will shoot through a deer end for end at any reasonable range and leave a good blood trail.

What we must all realize is that each animal is different as to how much punishment they can take. If they are jazzed up on adrenalin they are quite different than a deer that is just moseying along and is "ambushed". Where they are hit makes a tremendous difference in their reaction. Shoot them around the edges and you almost can't kill them... Good solid hits to the "kill zone" and you have a deer on the ground, shortly.

Dale53

[waksupi]

I would ask, WHERE are you hitting the 100 yard ram? All in the kill zone, or scattered around? 75 yards may even be too far, if they can't be kept in the living room.

[Judan_454]

Field Pistol Ram, elevation up and down are good shots from the front shoulder to inside the rear hip. It would be about the size of the vitals on a big whitetail deer.

[Judan_454]

I had the same thing happen when I was bow hunting and the fat pluged both holes it was a complete pass though with arrow. When I opened up the deer, massive internal bleeding but no blood trail. Tracked it for 2 hours found 50yds from my stand I think the broad head was 11/2.

[subsonic]

By putting the word "ethical" in there, you made the question un-answerable.

Some people would say shooting them at all is un-ethical.

Others, particularly indigenous people, might say that if you are hungry enough, there is no such thing as an un-ethical kill.

[44man]

Long before I knew you I gave up on hard solids. I listened to you when I knew I should not and tried it your way again. The definition of insanity is trying something the same way again and expecting different results. Those results were shooting a big fat doe at 50 yds with a full 44 mag solid RF (just like you've just told) and having her run off. She went 3/8 of a mile............ lost her because the ground wasn't suitable to trail and no blood was there. Found her when it warmed up from the smell a couple of days later. Results of an autopsy were two thru and thru shoots that destroyed the heart was a lost deer. Fat pluged those holes up allowing no blood to track with. No solids for me ever again for deer unless I get a shoulder shot........... and I don't ruin meat that way.
It comes down to mostly luck. I have never lost a deer with hard WLN in the .44. Lots of blood and short runs.
Then when I seen a small doe shot to a rag with 11 hits from 12 ga slugs that went a long way in the snow and only shot 11 killed her, I sure can not blame the slug. I killed too many deer with 1 slug and hundreds with a RB from flint locks so I can never blame a RB for a lost deer either.
Holes can get plugged up, nothing we can do. Heart shot deer can go 100 yards in a few seconds.
If you never lose a deer, you are not hunting. It happens and we need to get over it no matter how bad it makes us feel.
I seen woodchucks make it into a hole with half the body blown up.
Now another story. My friend was using his .44 with softer WLN boolits. He hit bone in the shoulder, smeared one edge from the boolits and the boolits turned, went through the guts and ended up in the hams. He has both boolits from last season. He had a very hard time finding each deer. When he opened the deer and seen they were gut shot after a sideways shot through the shoulders he had to ask if they were the same deer he shot! Only when he found his boolits was he sure.
So, my friend, you do not know what happened and nothing can be predicted.
I shot a nice doe through the lungs with a 7mm-08. Little blood but lung tissue on trees she bumped. I followed her a mile, blood ran out and her tracks went into trails with hundreds of tracks.
Do I say the rifle is no good? Not hardly, just circumstances.

[45 2.1]

It comes down to mostly luck. I don't agree with that.
So, my friend, you do not know what happened and nothing can be predicted. I most certainly know what happened with my scenario........ The whole trick is putting the boolits energy into the body of the deer (in the correct place), not on some hillside behind it. My "so called partition design" hollow points have not lost anything (even with 140 gr. HPs in the 357 Mag) and the deer are either DRT or ran 30 yards or less and piled up dead. Hard to argue with results like that.......wouldn't you say.

[44man]

It comes down to mostly luck. I don't agree with that.
So, my friend, you do not know what happened and nothing can be predicted. I most certainly know what happened with my scenario........ The whole trick is putting the boolits energy into the body of the deer (in the correct place), not on some hillside behind it. My "so called partition design" hollow points have not lost anything (even with 140 gr. HPs in the 357 Mag) and the deer are either DRT or ran 30 yards or less and piled up dead. Hard to argue with results like that.......wouldn't you say.
Now you know we can't argue! I also like HP's and soft nose boolits as long as the construction is correct. I don't like those explosive things. Expansion under control. I know you do it right.

[Chill Wills]

Wow! Talk about a question just made for debate! I'm a sucker. Here goes...

285 Yards into a Buck Mule Deer
Rifle is a Winchester 1886 45-70 button mag, shotgun butt and cut to 22" long before I ever had my hands on it.
The location is well known to me. Hunted this mountain side for decades.
It is steep open hillside and I shot across the fall line at a standing target.
I did this using a rifle and load well known to me and the ranges on the receiver sight were long ago plotted.
Ths shot was made off my elbo, prone and landed 3" left of the hoped for mark.

Not sure the buck was too happy about it but I felt great [smilie=w:

OK, Ooops! this is off topic, my window did not show "with a handgun" until I went back to reread. Sorry. Well, you got it anyway.

[FN in MT]

I've been fortunate to do a fair amount of hunting these past 40 years and to live in prime deer/elk country .

Occasionally strange, anomolous situations occur. I've seen poorly hit elk simply stand there...allowing additional shots. Also seen double lunged elk run well over 300 yds when you would think they would simply drop within a few feet...considering the internal damage.

I wanted to throw my two cents in on solids for deer/elk. I've shot a few deer and one elk with the #429421 Keith SWC from a 6" revolver. All one shoot kills fairly quickly. Same for the same design, but .411" from a .41 mag 6" gun on a single deer and a nice antelope. Short run...then stand for a few sec's then drop over..or simply drop on the run.

Few years back I moved UP to a 6" FA M-83 in .454 Casull , but do not load it nearly to its full potential. I use 325 gr WFN LBT's at 1100 fps or so. Also have a pair of .45 Colt Smith revo's that I've used for deer but with +P level 265 to 280 gr Keith style SWC's.

The .45's really seem to be a step up from the .44 mag. The bigger hole seems to work maybe 1/3 better. On deer the difference seems to be even more profound.

I'm a revolver hunter...no scopes and I try my best to limit shots to 60 yds with a rangefinder. I look at it as though I'm bow hunting with my old Bear bow...closer the better.

FARTHEST shot on game....it's a LONG story.:-P

FN in MT

[Larry Gibson]

By 45 2.1

Long before I knew you I gave up on hard solids.............. No solids for me ever again for deer unless I get a shoulder shot........... and I don't ruin meat that way.

Can anyone believe this..........45 2.1 and I agree on something:D

I also gave up on the WFN and Keith style hard cast bullets many years ago for the very reasons 45 2.1 mentions. While I will use them, and have no qualms with those that do, I found that unless a solid shoulder shot to break down one or both front legs the deer can go a long distance. If you aren't good at tracking or the conditions for such are difficult it may mean a lost deer. I also lost a deer I shot once and don't want to ever do that again. I also had to put down a lot of injured deer, elk and domestic stock as an LEO in NE Oregon. I was able to use about any cartridge/ammunition in any handgun or rifle. Thus I did a lot of 'testing" and soon found what killed the quickest. Quickest translates into less time for the deer to travel any distance.

In both handgun and rifles with cast bullets I use GC'd bullets cast of a soft malleable alloy that does expand. I also use HPs, either cast that way or HP'd with a Forster tool. I do such with the .357, .41 and .44 magnums and use real magnum level loads out of them, generally in the 1350 - 1400+ fps out of 6 1/2 - 7 1/2" barreled revolvers. I limit myself to 100 yards or less (I also prefer "closer") with the handguns and 200 yards or less with rifles using such soft cast HP'd bullets. With the handgun 100 yards is about my limit for 100% hits in a deers heart/lung area from field positions, even with a dot sight. It's also about the limit for reliable expansion with the remaining velocity at 100 yards. With rifles I generally push the bullets to 2000 - 2200+ fps and 200 yards is about the max distance for reliable expansion in deer or other game.

Quickest kills with properly placed soft cast HP'd bullets within my ability and the bullets ability to reliably expand is what drives my "ethical" limits on shots I will take at game with cast bullets. 100 yards is the max longest ethical shot with a soft expanding cast bullet in a revolver, 50 yards if I must use a hard cast WFN or SWC and then only if a good shoulder shot is presented. That is my answer to the question asked by the OP.

Larry Gibson